Shell Rotella - T4, T5, or T6???

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
And then...

Our engine maker only recommends very specific oils for our engines. Not generic "synthetic" with latest API specs... but instead only some very specific brands and "models".

Not all synthetics need apply, without regard to whether they meet the same latest API weights and specs.

And that's how I came to discover Rotella is sold under a different name elsewhere; the other name is on our MAN approved list.

Mobil has a few synthetics with latest and greatest API specs. Only a few are MAN approved for our engines, a couple of those (I think slightly older versions even with newest API specs) not really easily found anymore.

-Chris
 
My sense is the API spec is really general, but the OEM spec gets pretty specific - the 'behind the curtain' stuff on the additives. One of the last projecs I worked on was for a company that blended lubricants and was using machine-learning to accelerate the process. The additive packages are extremely varied and OEM recommendations expansive. "Data Sheet" for T5 is HERE but clearly there isn't much data. Yet somehow they show OEM approvals:

Specifications, Approvals & Recommendations
  1. API CK-4, CJ-4 ·
  2. Caterpillar ECF-3, ECF-2 ·
  3. Cummins CES 20086, 20081 ·
  4. Detroit Fluid Specification (DFS) 93K222, 93K218 ·
  5. Volvo VDS-4.5, VDS-4 ·
  6. Ford WSS-M2C171-F1 ·
  7. MACK EOS-4.5, EO-O PremiumPlus
​

My Perkins' Methuselah predates most of this so trying to figure out what was recommended is a false-errand. Better is to figure out what they would recommend today knowing the state-of-art of lubricants.

Bottom line, pretty sure I can't do any harm with any of them - I don't think there's a bad choice but maybe one that is slightly better than the others. I'll go with T5 in the "Mama Bear" middle slot of the line-up.

Peter
 
catalinajack said:
Newer is not necessarily better in all applications. Which applications and why? Not trying to be a wise guy, I just want to learn.
Click to expand...
Read through the article linked in my post 24 above. That is what I'm referring to.
It has some interesting quotes about newer oils
 
Last edited:
mvweebles said:
My sense is the API spec is really general, but the OEM spec gets pretty specific - the 'behind the curtain' stuff on the additives. One of the last projecs I worked on was for a company that blended lubricants and was using machine-learning to accelerate the process. The additive packages are extremely varied and OEM recommendations expansive.

Specifications, Approvals & Recommendations
  1. API CK-4, CJ-4 ·
  2. Caterpillar ECF-3, ECF-2 ·
  3. Cummins CES 20086, 20081 ·
  4. Detroit Fluid Specification (DFS) 93K222, 93K218 ·
  5. Volvo VDS-4.5, VDS-4 ·
  6. Ford WSS-M2C171-F1 ·
  7. MACK EOS-4.5, EO-O PremiumPlus
​
Click to expand...


Yep, that list partially illustrates our situation, too. As of 2022, MAN published 7 different engine lube oil approvals, each aimed at a specific class of their engines. Two of those approvals (now) apply to our specific engines.

The older of those two approvals was the only one that was effective when our engine manual was originally published, and our manual only listed two oils, both Mobil Delvac and neither easy to find, maybe no longer made.

It took me a while to understand why our original engine re-habber (?) used a different and more recent Mobil Delvac lube; turns out was apparently added to our approval after our manual was published, and it's also included in the newer of the two relevant approvals...

Eventually I was able to track down another MAN document (from a 2009 superseded web page) that actually lists a boatload of lubes relevant to our approval, BUT...

I've only found two of these here. One of which is that more recent Mobil Delvac (1 ESP 5w-40) and the other is Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 (sold elsewhere as Rimula R6M, R6MSC, or Ultra E7, all 10w-40).

The only other brand names on the 6-page list that I even recognize are BP, Castrol, and Chevron, but their specifically-referenced lubes are apparently not sold in the US market. And there are several lubes on the market (full synthetic in our case) with the same latest and greatest API specs but NOT on our MAN approval list.

Anyway... I guess that's the long way around to agree with you that API specs are a useful start, but may not be the full answer.

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
Yep, that list partially illustrates our situation, too. As of 2022, MAN published 7 different engine lube oil approvals, each aimed at a specific class of their engines. Two of those approvals (now) apply to our specific engines.

The older of those two approvals was the only one that was effective when our engine manual was originally published, and our manual only listed two oils, both Mobil Delvac and neither easy to find, maybe no longer made.

It took me a while to understand why our original engine re-habber (?) used a different and more recent Mobil Delvac lube; turns out was apparently added to our approval after our manual was published, and it's also included in the newer of the two relevant approvals...

Eventually I was able to track down another MAN document (from a 2009 superseded web page) that actually lists a boatload of lubes relevant to our approval, BUT...

I've only found two of these here. One of which is that more recent Mobil Delvac (1 ESP 5w-40) and the other is Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 (sold elsewhere as Rimula R6M, R6MSC, or Ultra E7, all 10w-40).

The only other brand names on the 6-page list that I even recognize are BP, Castrol, and Chevron, but their specifically-referenced lubes are apparently not sold in the US market. And there are several lubes on the market (full synthetic in our case) with the same latest and greatest API specs but NOT on our MAN approval list.

Anyway... I guess that's the long way around to agree with you that API specs are a useful start, but may not be the full answer.

-Chris
Click to expand...

As mentioned, I did a couple R&D/Machine-Learning type projects for Castrol, BP's lubricant's division. My role was on the commercial side so no deep technical exposure despite being the guy who wrote the contract and statements of work to provide gaurdrails for MIT-level nerds to work together.

I was amazed at the long list of OEM specifications that get included in the rubrik of developing an additive package. Thinking about it, there are probably three groupings:
  • (1) Additives that have been specifically formulated to meet OEM requirements;
  • (2) Additive packages that have not been specifically formulated for OEM spec's but would meet the spec's if anyone did the deep-dive analysis; and
  • (3) Additives are known to NOT meet OEM specs.
Within an API class and viscosity grade (CK-4/C-4 15-40 for example), pretty sure #2 - no formal testing but would meet spec - is the vast majority. Last group - #3 does-not-meet OEM spec - is probably a null set.

That said, I totally understand the rigor to find the OEM approved oil - better safe than sorry, and there may be warranty issues.

Peter
 
ranger58sb said:
Yep, that list partially illustrates our situation, too. As of 2022, MAN published 7 different engine lube oil approvals, each aimed at a specific class of their engines. Two of those approvals (now) apply to our specific engines.

The older of those two approvals was the only one that was effective when our engine manual was originally published, and our manual only listed two oils, both Mobil Delvac and neither easy to find, maybe no longer made.

It took me a while to understand why our original engine re-habber (?) used a different and more recent Mobil Delvac lube; turns out was apparently added to our approval after our manual was published, and it's also included in the newer of the two relevant approvals...

Eventually I was able to track down another MAN document (from a 2009 superseded web page) that actually lists a boatload of lubes relevant to our approval, BUT...

I've only found two of these here. One of which is that more recent Mobil Delvac (1 ESP 5w-40) and the other is Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 (sold elsewhere as Rimula R6M, R6MSC, or Ultra E7, all 10w-40).

The only other brand names on the 6-page list that I even recognize are BP, Castrol, and Chevron, but their specifically-referenced lubes are apparently not sold in the US market. And there are several lubes on the market (full synthetic in our case) with the same latest and greatest API specs but NOT on our MAN approval list.

Anyway... I guess that's the long way around to agree with you that API specs are a useful start, but may not be the full answer.

-Chris
Click to expand...


I wonder how much info you can get on what the MAN specs are actually looking for? Sometimes they're about certain things like HTHS values, level of some additive, etc. where you might then find oils that are suitable but were never certified to the spec. Other times you can't get enough information and have to just blindly go by the spec.
 
rslifkin said:
I wonder how much info you can get on what the MAN specs are actually looking for? Sometimes they're about certain things like HTHS values, level of some additive, etc. where you might then find oils that are suitable but were never certified to the spec. Other times you can't get enough information and have to just blindly go by the spec.
Click to expand...


I dunno. Might be in MAN's technical or developmental documentation, may or may not be readily available to dealers and installers...

But at least once I homed in one two viable (and available) products, I figured I'm set... for now.

My impression is that MAN is kinda picky, and then maybe even more so on their newer common rail engines. They do actually approve a boatload of lubes for some of their older engines, newer maybe not so much. I remember (I think) that our Cummins 450s just wanted 5w-40 with newer than or equal API spec that was in force when the 2002 engines were built.

-Chris
 
Last edited:
mvweebles said:
I need some oil - have decided on Shell Rotella due to local availability. Question is T4 (oil), T5 (synthetic blend), or T6 (synthetic)? My inclination was T6 but I came across this YouTube review and looks like T5 might be a better choice. I grabbed a screenshot of the findings to save y'all 11-mins of your life listinening to an unscripted narrator turn a 2-min vid into a 12-min one.

Engines: Old-school Perkins 4.236 75hp taking 2-gals; Northern Lights 6kw with 3-cyl Shibaura natural.

Thoughts?

Peter
View attachment 136975
Click to expand...

What do the manufacturers of your engines recommend?
 
Question wasn't what oil should I run per se - most (all?) current diesel-rated oils are CK-4/CJ-4 rated, the backwards compatible grade that superceded whatever would have been recommended 30+ years ago. I have found no evidence that Perkins (or Ford Lehman for that matter) made granular recommendations in the way some engine manufacturers do in modern times.

Original question was pretty narrow. Given the raw test results, which Rotella should I run. I ended up going with T5 due to the anti-wear attributes, though I concede I am unlikely to realize a difference in my lifetime.

What may be more controversial is its my laymans opinion that the often repeated statement that synthetics should not be run in older engines is a myth. Like any technology adoption curve, there are early adopters at one end, naysayers at the other with sky-will-fall prognostications of doom. These myths have persisted over the years even though the naysayers (OTR truckers) long ago switched to synthetic/blends.

That's my story.


Peter
 
Last edited:
Hippocampus said:
Now I’m totally confused . Looked in the QSC manual. Is this true for a circa 2007 engine?
Click to expand...


You probably have to cross-reference with your QSC documentation.

Valvoline can correctly state that their Premium Blue Extreme meets a (one, some) Cummins standard, but Cummins is the one to state which of their standards applies to which of their engines.

Same thing I've described with various lubes versus our MAN engines.

-Chris
 
mvweebles said:
Original question was pretty narrow. Given the raw test results, which Rotella should I run. I ended up going with T5 due to the anti-wear attributes, though I concede I am unlikely to realize a difference in my lifetime.
Click to expand...

I liked this thread. I had/have decided a couple of years ago to standardize on the T6. But a year ago had to settle for something else in full synthetic.

Couple months ago I had to use T5 because that was all I could find (you are limited shopping in Bahamas on foot). But now think I also will just use the T5 from now on in my 2001 Yanmar and consider it a reasonable cost upgrade from "regular" oil. I doubt an oil type is going to ever be the issue in killing my engine and expect an overheat MUCH more likely to be cause.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PocketAces
Shell Rotella T4 vs T6 for Yanmar 6LYA-STP
Replies
8
Views
4K
fryedaze
fryedaze

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom