RV generator conversion anyone?

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I honestly have no idea why it works that way, but it does. The gen will start and run for about 10 minutes then shut down.

I wonder if it is some kind of exhaust safety work around. Maybe they had trouble with exhaust fumes getting back into the boat so they put a timer on the gen set to shut down unless the boat was moving with in 10 minutes. Not sure how they would know the boat was moving. They could have tied a timer to having the main engines running or a speed sensor. Would be interesting to diagnose what shuts the gen set down. If it doesn't overheat or need bleeding it almost has to be the shut down solenoid tied to the fuel injector? I would love to hear what causes the gen set engine to shutdown.
 
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AdkChris,
I dunno, the exhaust is portside midships 3-4 in above the waterline. The salon windows are 6ft above that. After 4 years of looking for a solution, I'm done with it and moving on. The 30kw is tons more than I need, but it'll work, won't cost me that much to swap over considering that I can fabricate the exhaust manifold, riser, heat exchanger, & oil cooler in house for the cost of materials. (~$500-$1000 in Stainless + my shop time). Would it be worth farming this out? Not just no, but H3ll no. Dropping $40-50k (buying a new 30kw Genset & marinizing) into 38yr old boat to upgrade the genset? While I'm doing it I'll also be doing the Main engines, fortunately I already have the risers to use as a pattern, the exhaust manifolds will be different. I'm thinking something along the lines of coolant cooled headers for a diesel. I'll need 2 sets of those.
 
Okay, when the genny shuts down while not running the main engines, does it do it by turning off the fuel solenoid? Or is it from fuel starvation with the fuel solenoid STILL OPEN? Easy to check, just sit and watch and see if the fuel solenoid shuts down, THEN the engine stops.

Reason I ask is this. If the cause of the genny shutdown is because the fuel solenoid physically moves, then it appears that there is some type of timer in place that senses the main engines not running, and counts down to a predetermined amount of time and turns off (or on) the power to the fuel solenoid.
Is you fuel solenoid spring loaded to the fuel off position, ie with no power to the solenoid, does the fuel turn off? Or is it powered on to move in either direction with no return spring?
If spring loaded to the fuel off position, run a power lead to the solenoid to a switch just to test the situation. If the genny runs non stop, keep an eye on the genny coolant temps. There is either a timer, or the genny is over temping and shutting off.
See where I'm going with this?

At this point we're getting into many "branching roads" of testing. Best to check the above, answer the questions asked before going any further . . .
 
I agree that it's worth investigating the current system if the generator otherwise works well and meets your needs. It's likely going to be less work to get the current unit to behave properly than to put a big, heavy, 30kw unit in the boat. And you'll have a very hard time getting enough load on the 30kw unit too, so it'll end up being inefficient and probably live a shortened life from chronic underloading.
 
Yes good idea to start the mains and see if the gen still shuts down. I cannot imagine they put in any type of speed sensor. What does the gen temp gauge indicate? Maybe without forward motion the seawater pump does not prime?
I would definitely prefer to find the problem vs a refit. There are really not that many possibilities as to why it is shutting down. It would be a ton of work to refit. Your insurer might also have an issue with this.
 
Slowgoesit,

Not being fuel starved. The fuel doesn't have a solenoid between the tanks and the pump. It does have 3 ball valves to cut the fuel off from the tanks: 1 port, 1 starboard, 1 for both, all manual. The Genset cuts off whether the mains are running or not. I'm stumped as WTH is going on.


rslifin,

The 30kw is a military surplus unit. $3800 on a towable trailer with ~350hrs. Cat diesel, runs like a champ once I replaced the control panel plate. Loud as Satan's own hounds until I fabricated an exhaust system that quieted it down (Probably why it went to surplus. A baffle plate had fallen out f the way). The neighbor & I share its' output when we need to. I don't plan on using it much if I don't need to. If I can get a smaller unit I will, but this is what I have available at this time.

As to underloading, I can't help that. When its in use it'll be to charge the batteries, and power the boat, etc.



Star.
 
Ready,
Mains running or not makes no difference. The seawater pump doesn't need priming, the intake port on the pump is below the waterline. Flow is from the seacock, through the strainer to the Seawater pump inlet below the water line, then through the heat exchanger, exhaust manifold, and into the wet exhaust, then out the port side just above the waterline. When the engine cuts off it doesn't sputter like it fuels starved. It stops like it's been shut down manually. Carver knows about this issue and put the work around in the boat manual.





Star
 
I had an AC unit on an express cruiser that would essentially get air locked/fail to prime unless the below the waterline intake was getting some pressure from forward motion. But I presume your are getting good outflow at the dock? Also measure the temp of that outflow. It should be warming up?

My best guess is that the genset must be turning off based upon temperature, triggering a thermal shutdown. Can you measure the temp of the antifreeze in the expansion tank?
 
Ready,

Plenty of outflow. The few times I've had it running while underway it ran fine (several hours without shutting down). I "think" it may have a flow switch somewhere but I haven't found it. I've been through both the boat manual and the Westerbeke manual. I haven't found a reason for the shut downs. The Carver manual says the boat must be underway as soon as possible in order for the Genset to keep running, but not why.

The Westerbeke manual doesn't mention anything about having to be underway to keep running. So that tells me that this is a Carver 3607 quirk.



Star
 
Anything CAN be done. Not everything SHOULD be done. If you’re doing it for hobby value, and aren’t worried about insurance, great. If you’re looking for practical value, used properly marinized generators can be had for a relative song with a little perseverance. A buddy and I got a 10 KW Westerbeke for a thousand bucks, “unmarinized” it with 200 bucks worth of parts, and now he has a perfect backup generator at home. Runs like a top...could have been dropped in a boat.
 
I've been through both the boat manual and the Westerbeke manual. I haven't found a reason for the shut downs.
Star

Given the age of the boat and the variations in the low volume production of boats I think you need to look at what is currently really on the boat not just what the sales department put in the paperwork after the boat left the factory.

Do a google search on "what the customer ordered tire swing" and see all the hits you get. There is a reason there are so many variations on that theme.

When I worked at a machine tool manufacturer I said the company made a least 4 versions of every machine. The one the salesman wrote up in the order, one we designed in engineering, one the purchasing department bought parts for and one the assembly department put together. And that was only by the time the machine hit the loading dock. After a few decades in service who knows what changes have been made.
 
READY,

I honestly have no idea why it works that way, but it does. The gen will start and run for about 10 minutes then shut down. I can restart, and it'll run for another 10 minutes then shut down again. The Gen has its own 2in through hull, with seacock, strainer, etc and the wet exhaust goes out just above the waterline with no restrictions. It gets clean diesel from either tank (switchable) through its own Racor. The manual says to get underway as soon as possible after starting the genset or it will shut down after about 10 minutes. No explanation why. Carver couldn't remember why but that the '82 3607 with the 6.7kw Westerbeke all had the same issue and this was their work around. The '83 and forward didn't have the same issue even with the same genset. The gen runs like a champ once I'm underway, It's not very useful if I'm anchoring out. Hence my plan to repurpose my 30kw House genset. I also plan to repurpose my solar panels from the house to Star as well. My house will become a rental property and I'm not going to leave either behind for the tenant to steal, or foul up. Their can get their own Genset and use the existing hookup. (240Vac <400amp). ETA 4 years then I'm RETIRED and doing the Loop!!!

Anything CAN be done. Not everything SHOULD be done. If you’re doing it for hobby value, and aren’t worried about insurance, great. If you’re looking for practical value, used properly marinized generators can be had for a relative song with a little perseverance. A buddy and I got a 10 KW Westerbeke for a thousand bucks, “unmarinized” it with 200 bucks worth of parts, and now he has a perfect backup generator at home. Runs like a top...could have been dropped in a boat.

I'd pull the impeller and install a very durable AC electric water pump that's wired to run with the generator. I run my Perkins 165 this way because the damn impeller is impossible to reach. Going strong for a long time.
 
wpc691,

Agreed.


AdkChris,

Agreed, for the moment my plan is to get Star to Baltimore where I can get to her easily and do the work she needs. Right now Star is 7 hours away each way in a shutdown marina. Once here, given that I'm her 6th owner, full overhaul, and since I have the skills necessary to fix what is needed, that is the plan. Some things are beyond my ability, Fiberglass, Paintwork, Glass, I stink at all of those. so I'll farm them out. Carpentry (Journeymen Cabinetmaker), Electrical (Master), Welding (Journeymen), Plumbing supply (Journeymen), all those I can do. I have a well equipped Shop for Woodworking, Welding, & a Foundry. Plumbing I can do but really don't like, & I Hate doing Sewage.



Mrwesson,

Now THAT's a very good idea and one I hadn't thought of! I'll try that before I do anything with the genset. Thanx alot.



Star
 
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Star,

Something is off. Gensets are intended to be run at anchor with the engines off.

Can you post the make and model of genset? And a copy of the relevant Carver manual page(s)?

I'm not even sure how the genset would know that you are underway. No ignition on a diesel. Key position? Battery vs alternator voltage? Tied to water speed sensor? To what end? This is all squirrely.

I think it has to be overheating or miswired, which, to me, means checking the external strainer (ask diver), seacock, internal strainer, hose, impeller, raw water pump, and exchanger, in that order. misfires, looking at the wiring and then at or inside the controller to see what the inputs are and why it thinks it is stopping.

Thanks.
 
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Okay, when the genny shuts down while not running the main engines, does it do it by turning off the fuel solenoid? Or is it from fuel starvation with the fuel solenoid STILL OPEN? Easy to check, just sit and watch and see if the fuel solenoid shuts down, THEN the engine stops.

Reason I ask is this. If the cause of the genny shutdown is because the fuel solenoid physically moves, then it appears that there is some type of timer in place that senses the main engines not running, and counts down to a predetermined amount of time and turns off (or on) the power to the fuel solenoid.
Is you fuel solenoid spring loaded to the fuel off position, ie with no power to the solenoid, does the fuel turn off? Or is it powered on to move in either direction with no return spring?
If spring loaded to the fuel off position, run a power lead to the solenoid to a switch just to test the situation. If the genny runs non stop, keep an eye on the genny coolant temps. There is either a timer, or the genny is over temping and shutting off.
See where I'm going with this?

At this point we're getting into many "branching roads" of testing. Best to check the above, answer the questions asked before going any further . . .

If it’s the fuel solenoid tied to some kind of safety timer you could simply wire the fuel solenoid open in a pinch. The trouble with that is you lose your low oil pressure and water temp safety switches.
 
Quote, “ I'd pull the impeller and install a very durable AC electric water pump that's wired to run with the generator. I run my Perkins 165 this way because the damn impeller is impossible to reach. Going strong for a long time.”

If it’s an impeller issue that’s fine. If it’s some kind of safety timer that won’t work.

OP could use a stopwatch and see if it is exactly the same amount of time before shut down to see if it’s a timer. Also, an infrared heat instrument on the water dumped into the exhaust manifold could detect an overheat issue.
 
gkesden,



I looked at the reference manual you listed, that one is for 3607 up to 1980, I have an '82. There seems to be difference. Also Star has 2 9.0L Internationals, Not standard, so a unique boat, the original owner specified them (& paid extra). He said he wanted engines that he could get parts for at any NAPA store and know they would work. I believe they became an option in '83.



The manual is currently in my storage locker but I know (& was surprised) that it said to get underway as soon as possible. I have had the opportunity to speak with the original owner and he remembers the same problem and workaround.



IF (& I stress IF) I had built Star I probably would've gone with a Cummins, Perkins, or Lehman because well ANY one of them would've moved Star at HULL speed without having to deal with custom anything, but here I am 38 years later with Star as she is. Don't misunderstand, I absolutely LOVE her layout, 2 cabins with their own heads & The master has a Jacuzzi!), full down galley with an oven, big Norcold (15cuft tripower new in 2016), microwave, Dinette/Chart-table/Double Bed opposite the galley, with tons of storage everywhere else, etc. In short even after 5 years, I still love my boat, I want to fix her & cruise on her.




T210DRVR,

Standard 6.7KW Westerbeke Genset, No fuel solenoid involved except on the Genset.

Shut down time is "about" 10 minutes +/- 1-2 minutes, so it's not a timer unless it's a Resistive/Capacitive timer (VERY Old School but also appropriate for the time period and D@mn near bulletproof for operation. DAMHIKT)

I can't see how this is an exhaust backflow issue, there s 6 feet between the exhaust and the nearest window. That should be plenty of distance to avoid CO problems. I doubt it's an overheat issue since the Genset ran without issue while underway. The exhaust flow rate wouldn't change.



Once I can go back to Star there is some other work that I'll attend to and install an AC water pump for the Genset. Once Star is back in the water I'll test the Genset while docked. I can survive the trip back to Baltimore without it, but it would be nice to have power if I need to anchor out.





Star
 
Hey Star,

Something is off here (.)

In any boat with a genset, a primary use case is charging up the batteries each night, or every few, while at anchor or at a mooring. Then, we come to your boat, which was marketed as a comfort yacht, and contains a metric boat load of electrical appliances. A 120VAC electric stove was standard. So, one would need to run the genset to cook each evening. A three-zone 120VAC electric air conditioning system was, if not standard, extremely common. Running it at anchor or mooring is an other major use case. Many of those boats had 120VAC ice makers. And, dual-voltage refrigerator-freezers were standard. So, even if running the refridge/freezer on 12V -- the batteries would need to be charged up.

Carver isn't now, and wasn't then, some "donkey builder." I don't believe that they designed a luxury aft-cabin yacht with, quite literally, a boat load of 120VAC appliances, huge continuous battery draws, and neglected to provide any way to use them. Keep in mind, in 1982 -- an inverter was /not/ even an option. And, even if it was -- a genset would be needed to charge up. Solar wasn't even an option, either!

Also, the 3607 was one of the top selling boat's of all time. If Carver did something this bizarre, and somehow managed to achieve such a high volume of sales, you'd be reading about it -- and the fix -- all over the Internet. Almost everyone here would know about it, why it was done, and what to do about it. A quick Google search would turn it up on owner sites as well as folklore about it. But, that isn't the case.

As for the manual, it couldn't possibly be for an earlier boat -- the 3607 was introduced in 1982! Also, the relevant parts are date stamped 10/12/1981, consistent with the boat's introduction (Sections date stamped earlier apply to all Carver's and weren't updated for this model). Having said that, it is true that what I sent you is a broiler plate manual or one from another boat (I don't know which) and might not be entirely consistent with your build. None-the-less, it is hard to imagine a specific build being as off in this way as is suggested.

As for what the prior owner(s) are telling you, I can only offer you my experience. The prior and prior-prior owners of my present boat have blessed me with tremendous background information, technical help, etc. I am eternally grateful. Having said that, that doesn't mean that everything they think they remember is correct. They are humans, too.

The International engines, PCM I think, weren't standard, but were very commonly selected option in that boat. I've been in a few examples, myself.

I suspect what the owner's manual is warning about is genset noise -- and, much more importantly, exhaust. Most of those boats were gasoline with gasoline gensets -- and gas engines produce a boat load of carbon monoxide gas. If the exhaust blows in the wrong direction, it can kill the occupants of the aft cabin -- or a nearby boat. And, Carver had a real problem with CO levels in the gasoline version of these boats. I think I remember reading that the genset could get CO levels above 3,000 ppm in some parts of the boat. I think they were just learning to understand these issues when the boats were built and it wasn't for a decade or two later that people really understood they dynamics (or lack thereof) that were causing the CO build up.

I can imagine that Carver would have gotten sued over this and added some type of safety. But, I've never heard of one. And, to my memory, by the time this issue was understood, the boats were already afloat!

Diesel gensets don't produce much CO, but do still produce a bunch of noise, foul exhaust, and a ton of CO2. So, they may not have removed the section of the manual. It is still good advice not to run the genset for a long time at the slip (although, many of us with diesel generators do it, for example, during power outages or for maintenance, when I'd hope out gasser neighbors might not, or at least might not without very careful consideration to prevailing wind, their cabins, and their neighbors' cabins).

So, viewed from the perspective of a slip vs an anchorage or relaxed mooring field (some are packed in like slips), the advice of "start it and get going" is good advice.

So, what does this mean for you? There is likely no reason that genset can't be made to run while the boat doesn't. You just need to find out why it is shutting down and address it. Without the model number and finding a controller schematic or maybe manual, I can't tell you specifically how to do that. But, I bet it involves putting a meter on a few relays to see which one is shutting things down, e.g. temp, oil pressure, AC output, external sensor of some kind.

If it isn't cooling well enough, which would be my best 0-knowledge guess, check the thru-hull, external strainer, internal strainer, hose, impeller, pump, hose, heat exchanger, hose, and exhaust. Make sure water flows abundantly with pressure to the pump. Make sure the impeller is good. Make sure bits of impeller, scale, etc, aren't clogging up the exchanger or anything else. Make sure that no hose has collapsed internally or externally to slow water flow. Etc.

Look for the usual maintenance issues. But, also, since they might be an old issue, look for a design issue, for example, is the thru-hull big enough?
 
Agreed, there is probably some underlying system issue causing the genset to shut down prematurely. IIRC, old school systems had a relay that held the genset fuel solenoid open. If the relay was grounded for some reason then the solenoid closed. Several things could cause the ground condition, high temp, low oil pressure, and possibly others dependent on the particular set. If it were a wire in the harness going to ground then the genset either wouldn’t start at all or quit as soon as the starting system disengaged. My guess would be an actual condition like high temps or low oil pressure though there could be other causes.

Does the genset have gauges for water temps and/or oil pressure?
 
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