Running Lehman 120 on home heating oil

[psneeld]

"Most DIESEL FUEL sold at fuel docks already has the state road tax deducted from the price at the pump. There is neither road tax paid nor refund due for most marine diesel fuel. Untaxed marine diesel fuel is identified by its dyed color, usually red. If a boater buys clear diesel fuel, it is most likely taxed and that tax would be entitled to the same refund process as gasoline. Check with your fuel dock on the tax status of their diesel sold. "

https://rbaw.org/Marine-Fuel-Tax-Refund

 

[FF]

For folks that worry about lubricity a quart of 2 stroke out board oil in every 100G should solve the hassle.This was tested decades ago when the sulfur was removed.

Otherwise Stanadine sells a product.

Keeping the filters clean more often is also a good idea, not only for heating oil.

Many marina have crap for fuel filters. When traveling in our 90/90 I always use a Baja style filter before the tank,usually is empty with only a 20G fill, but on occasion WOW!

 

[leeman]

No offense but this is not smart.

Drums are DOT approved. I fill up where I need to, where ever the boat is. (Sometimes on dock behind house. Sometimes at dock, sometimes at buddies place etc…

Nothing illegal. Boat takes 2 drums at a time. Sometimes I throw a 325 fuel bladder on deck for longer hauls thats filled from barrels.

Telling someone they are doing something “not smart” (aka stupid) is typically insulting, but your uneducated response dulled the blow, lmao.

The reason i wanted to tell folks is that sometimes money is tight and having options like this would keep
Folks on the water and using boats.

Have a good night[/QUOTE]

Lamuncha was talking about the "Transport of Dangerous Goods". Your post appeared to be completely oblivious of the regulations so it was a fair and deserved comment. I thought the same thing. No mention of placards(yet), so likely you were illegal.

 

[Scooby5959]

Why are you jealous

Drums are DOT approved. I fill up where I need to, where ever the boat is. (Sometimes on dock behind house. Sometimes at dock, sometimes at buddies place etc…

Nothing illegal. Boat takes 2 drums at a time. Sometimes I throw a 325 fuel bladder on deck for longer hauls thats filled from barrels.

Telling someone they are doing something “not smart” (aka stupid) is typically insulting, but your uneducated response dulled the blow, lmao.

The reason i wanted to tell folks is that sometimes money is tight and having options like this would keep
Folks on the water and using boats.

Have a good night

Lamuncha was talking about the "Transport of Dangerous Goods". Your post appeared to be completely oblivious of the regulations so it was a fair and deserved comment. I thought the same thing. No mention of placards(yet), so likely you were illegal.[/QUOTE]

Nothing wrong with transporting fuel oil in barrels and vehicle.I have an endorsement on my license or hazardous materials I also have to carry additional insurance. That’s because I’m engaged in interstate commerce for hire that’s when the placard comes into play.The rules change when you do it for a hirer or a living. Trucks I have owned generally have 2 150 gallon saddle tanks on each side of the tractor .right about the height wear a four wheeler would run into them .nothing illegal about that . no placard required is a placard required when you fill up your gas can for your lawn mower. You would be in just as much trouble with your 5 gallon gas can as the guy with a 50 gallon barrel if involved in an accident .and there was a spill he would most likely be charged with unsecured load , By the way your five Gallon gas can is much more hazardous than 50 gallons of fuel oil as gasoline is very explosive.transporting off-road fuel in barrels is done every day all day ,if you’ve ever owned Off-road equipment .excavators and such you would know what I was talking about standard practice.Pretty strange that you take something as simple as filling up your boat with barrels personal , and are offended , lots of things to be offended over filling your boat with the barrel isn’t one of them in my book

 

[Peter B]

"Most DIESEL FUEL sold at fuel docks already has the state road tax deducted from the price at the pump. There is neither road tax paid nor refund due for most marine diesel fuel. Untaxed marine diesel fuel is identified by its dyed color, usually red. If a boater buys clear diesel fuel, it is most likely taxed and that tax would be entitled to the same refund process as gasoline. Check with your fuel dock on the tax status of their diesel sold. "

https://rbaw.org/Marine-Fuel-Tax-Refund

Ok, so as I suspected. This is another Aussie rip-off, as we here cannot get a discount for the road tax, or claim it back at tax time. We just have to wear the fact we are paying road user tax on diesel not being used on the road. Just typical...

 

[psneeld]

Some people should do more research when giving advice. At least questions come up and best to call your states DOT.

https://www.jjkeller.com/learn/news/072016/When-does-diesel-fuel-require-placards

When transporting diesel fuel, many often wonder if placarding is required. As is the case with many hazardous materials, the placarding requirement is determined largely by the hazard of the material, the quantity of the material being transported, and the type of packaging used. But, confusion arises for diesel in first determining if it is regulated or not.

When diesel is regulated

Whether diesel is regulated largely depends on the type of packaging. Generally, combustible liquids such as diesel are not subject to the HMR when in non-bulk packaging. Therefore, when diesel is transported in non-bulk bypackaging, a placard is not required.However, when diesel is transported in bulk packaging, it is regulated and does require placarding.

Placards or no placards

The types of packaging that fall within bulk packaging and non-bulk packaging can be confusing. The capacity of the packaging (whether over 119 gallons or 119 gallons or less) dictates the requirements. See the following examples:

Type of Diesel Packaging Bulk or non-bulk? Placard?
3,000-gallon cargo tank Bulk Yes
55-gallon drum Non-bulk No
200-gallon Intermediate bulk container (IBC) Bulk. Yes
110-gallon tote Non-bulk No
120-gallon portable tank Bulk Yes

 

[FF]

"Ok, so as I suspected. This is another Aussie rip-off, as we here cannot get a discount for the road tax, or claim it back at tax time. We just have to wear the fact we are paying road user tax on diesel not being used on the road. Just typical..."

Taxes are imposed by GOV. Vote early , Vote often, USA style!

 

[Alisske]

.Pretty strange that you take something as simple as filling up your boat with barrels personal , and are offended , lots of things to be offended over filling your boat with the barrel isn’t one of them in my book[/QUOTE]

Scooby, read your post. Not sure exactly what you were getting at, but I was both annoyed and offended.

Offended because someone was insinuating that what I was doing was stupid.

- Annoyed because the person was talking out of thier ass and was discouraging others folks from saying a few bucks.

A defense that lamanga was that they just did not know. I dont agree. I think you should know what your talking about or simply make a suggestion with the caveat that you are unsure. (not a finite statement capped with an insult.)

“ignorantia juris non excusat”, or “ignorance of the law does not excuse” especially for bad behavior.

Not looking to start a war of words, but i don't need internet analysis about why I feel what I feel. Lmao. No one likes a fool that spouts misinformation online.

 

[psneeld]

As mom used to say....consider the source.

Internet sources can be very sketchy....not worth sweating over. At best, negative posts don't bother me, they just remind me that so little info passed stands alone, so I better do some more research.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

FWIW some states tax marine diesel to fund marine programs. Alaska for sure, not sure where else.

I'd say the median demographic here would not care, but I'll throw that out there.

 

[Ski in NC]

Here in NC I asked the manager of our fuel distributor about this. At his company the heating oil and diesel all are shipped the same way from the same source and are stored in the same tanks. When a delivery truck goes out, it makes drops at heating oil tanks and diesel tanks from the same load.

I go to the terminal in my pickup with two or three barrels and fill them. I never have to handle the full barrels. I gravity feed two barrels to the boat 40' from the truck (and about 15' downhill, which helps a lot). Third barrel gravity feeds into my hurricane gennie tank. Empty barrels easy to tote.

Y'all up north, do check on source of fuel as with the amount of HHO they sell up there, the formulation may be different.

 

[twistedtree]

Y'all up north, do check on source of fuel as with the amount of HHO they sell up there, the formulation may be different.

In the winter you need to check because sometimes home heating oil is not treated to prevent it from gelling up in cold weather, where off-road diesel will be treated. Just when in the season the treatment begins and ends will vary by region.

 

[Ski in NC]

I would not worry about "winterized" fuel in a boat. If it is cold enough in your engine room to gel the fuel, you will have bigger problems than that.

Nothing wrong with using winterized diesel in a boat, but would prefer non winterized just because of the higher energy content.

 

[Alisske]

I would not worry about "winterized" fuel in a boat. If it is cold enough in your engine room to gel the fuel, you will have bigger problems than that.

Nothing wrong with using winterized diesel in a boat, but would prefer non winterized just because of the higher energy content.

Thanks for the feedback. I use my lehman 120 year round. I have two block heaters. I have had the boat out when its been in the teens for a fews days. (Both when in the water and when on a lift). I mention the lift piece becuase rhe engine gets a lot colder out of the water (the water usually keeps between 30 and 38 Fahrenheit and it actually warms the hull up when its 25 degress)

In any case, never had a gel problem even burning the tank that does not have a return (return would heat up the tank a little). And thats for the last decade

Just am FYI to keep thought going.

 

[FF]

If the source uses the same truck to deliver off road fuel,and home heating oil, it will probably be winterized as many homes have the oil tank outside.

 

[Group9]

For folks that worry about lubricity a quart of 2 stroke out board oil in every 100G should solve the hassle.This was tested decades ago when the sulfur was removed.

Otherwise Stanadine sells a product.

Keeping the filters clean more often is also a good idea, not only for heating oil.

Many marina have crap for fuel filters. When traveling in our 90/90 I always use a Baja style filter before the tank,usually is empty with only a 20G fill, but on occasion WOW!

We use Baja filters in the Bahamas. Biggest Wow! moment was seeing a bug (actual dead insect) in the funnel while we were filling up

 

[ronobrien]

I was working a diesel mechanic for Mack Trucks back in the late 70's/late 80's. There was a push to remove sulfur from the fuel for environmental reasons. We began to see fuel leaks everywhere. The sulfur was swelling the rubber seals and the new fuel allowed the seals to shrink. It was a fairly expensive fix for the truck owners. They had to remove injection pumps to replace seals and have them re-calibrated. They also needed to add lubricants to the fuel (Marvel Mystery oil seemed to work well) as the sulfur was a lubricant itself. Low cetane will definitely cause performance issues but I don't know of any damage being done.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I am a retired chemical engineer who worked in the petroleum refining industry, so from that perspective:

Diesel fuel has two specifications that are not present in heating oil specifications: lubricity and cetane index. Lubricity is self explanatory and cetane index is an indication of the fuel's ability to compression ignite.

Small refiners in the south who don't have a big heating oil market may only produce one formulation for both diesel and heating oil, so it has to meet the diesel lubricity, cetane and sulfur spec. So it is fine to use that heating oil in a diesel engine. The oil is the same.

But bigger refiners, particularly in the midwest or northeast refine two separate products. For diesel they add lubricity additives as well as cetane improvement additives or blend it to meet the cetane spec. They also refine it to meet the sulfur spec.

For fuel oil they don't have to worry about lubricity or cetane so you get what you get. It may be ok for diesel use or it may not be.

Caveat emptor.

David

Well-said and fully agree, while HHO is often coming from the same rack nozzle as #2 diesel, there is no guarantee that it will, or needs to, meet the same specifications. If you were curious, you could easily have a sample tested using a lab like Polaris. Fuel testing isn't cheap, so it will eat into your savings, but you've saved so much over the years you can afford it.

High sulfur diesel should have no effect on modern marine diesel engines unless they use after treatment and thankfully that remains rare for now.

From Cummins...

Sulfur Content
Not to exceed 15 ppm on engines with diesel oxidation catalyst
Not to exceed 15 ppm on engines with diesel particulate filters and diesel oxidation
catalyst
Not to exceed 5000 ppm on engines without exhaust aftertreatment.
Not to exceed 15 ppm on engines with diesel particulate filters.
Not to exceed 50 ppm on engines with SCR (no diesel particulate filter).

More on diesel fuel here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Diesel_Primer115_04.pdf

 

[Alisske]

If you were curious, you could easily have a sample tested using a lab like Polaris. (End quote)

Appreciate the info. I was not curious really, just wanted to post that after a decade of use (and some research) that my belief is that its fine to run HHO in you old dinosaur lehman.

Be well

 

[pkirkll]

So i guess my waste soybean oil from the Chinese restaurant would roll some eyes here....lololol

But it sure smooths out the clatter and extends the range-- i had an arrangement with one restaurant that i gave a dollar a gallon if they would make sure they replaced the cap on my drum everytime they filled it--then i transferred it to other tanks thru water and 5 micron filter cartridges-- Only problem was it kept me hungry all the time because she smells like french fries!!!

PS I used this as an extender---- 3/4 veggie oil to 1/4 diesel

 

[Circumnavigator]

One thing not mentioned above is that diesel fuel and home heating oli are taxed differently in some states. In Massachusetts, home heating oil is not taxed, diesel is, so using home heating oil in your boat probably breaks the law.


Also, the cetane comment above is spot on. I know that my marina sells a cetane improver so if you somehow could get a cetane analysis done on the heating oil, you could raise it to the manufacturer's spec.


For me, I bought Fintry's fuel at a fuel dock that did 15,000 gallons a day, precovid -- less now because there are fewer tourists boats, but still a lot. If I bought 1,000 gallons or more and paid with a check (no credit card discount), I paid $0.47 above the NY Spot Price for #2 diesel -- that would be $2.64 today. If you have large tanks, it pays to find a high volume fuel dock and negotiate.


Jim

 

[Alisske]

For older 2500 RPM naturally aspirated diesels, the cetane number is irrelevant in practical terms.

The US has a standard minimum cetane number of 40 for all diesel in the US for the last decade. Modern highway diesels like 45 or more, but they are spec’d to run on 40 (hence the minimum required of ALL DIESEL IN THE US for the last decade). #2 diesel has a cetane number between 42-44.

That being said, some states like California require a higher minimum cetane rating , but 40 is the minimum nationally.

Cetane is more essential in modern higher RPM diesels. (Think turboed diesels)

In any case, my “ol’ clam crusher” will not benefit from a higher cetane since it was built in 1980 on a design from 1950. Lol.

 

[CaptTom]

If the source uses the same truck to deliver off road fuel, and home heating oil, it will probably be winterized as many homes have the oil tank outside.

Around here the winterized version is called "mobile home blend" and it's a lot more expensive than regular home heating oil. I thought it is blended with kerosene but I'm not sure on that.

In a pinch, I've bought a couple of portable tanks of diesel for my home heating oil tank, if there was a chance the delivery would be late. It's a little more because of the road tax, but runs fine in the boiler. And if I don't need it in the winter, I can always use it in the boat come spring.

 

[Barrie]

Canada here! My old boat had twin 1985 Perkins. Filled up a couple of times with diesel from a government dock that the delivery truck could get close. Nice savings but our government EPA stopped the practice.
West of Montreal there is a native marina. The guy was chatty and let slip i was getting home heating oil and not diesel. The girls in the engine room ran the best ever. Ran cooler and I could tell smoother.
Can't do it with the new boat
Take care!

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I was working a diesel mechanic for Mack Trucks back in the late 70's/late 80's. There was a push to remove sulfur from the fuel for environmental reasons. We began to see fuel leaks everywhere. The sulfur was swelling the rubber seals and the new fuel allowed the seals to shrink. It was a fairly expensive fix for the truck owners. They had to remove injection pumps to replace seals and have them re-calibrated. They also needed to add lubricants to the fuel (Marvel Mystery oil seemed to work well) as the sulfur was a lubricant itself. Low cetane will definitely cause performance issues but I don't know of any damage being done.

Contrary to popular belief sulfur is not a lubricant, removal of sulfur, using a process known as hydro treating, removes lubricity from fuel as a side effect, requiring the reintroduction of lubricity additives. For that reason many people assume sulfur is a lubricant; it is not.

The sulfur seal swelling issue is a problem for older engines running on high sulfur diesel that then switch to low sulfur diesel.

Adding bootleg lubricants such as Marvel and two cycle outboard oil is not recommended, lab studies have shown that this can actually be counterproductive. Genuine lubricity additives like Stanadyne are, on the other hand, a legitimate option.

 

[koliver]

Around here the winterized version is called "mobile home blend" and it's a lot more expensive than regular home heating oil. I thought it is blended with kerosene but I'm not sure on that.

In a pinch, I've bought a couple of portable tanks of diesel for my home heating oil tank, if there was a chance the delivery would be late. It's a little more because of the road tax, but runs fine in the boiler. And if I don't need it in the winter, I can always use it in the boat come spring.

Here in BC, my home heating oil, delivered right to my home, costs the same as my marine diesel, for which I have to go to the fuel barge, where you would think you don't pay the road taxes, but the price for both is near the same as at the local gas station.
No free lunch.

 

[bfloyd4445]

So in summary, if you have an old Lehman, she was designed for, and loves to eat, home heating oil, lmao. Also, i have never experienced water in my fuel, or algae etc….

One more note, I realize that high sulfur diesel is not the best for the environment, But its 2k$ in fuel savings each year. (Sorry)

??...so are you saying you could care less about what you are doing to our planet or global warming as long as it saves you money? Most would say they care and how everyone should work to end the problems while drinking out of a plastic cup, wearing plastic shoes, spraying herbicides insecticides etc. all because its legal with no thought about the long term effects of what they are doing.
Now what about me; I am wearing plastic shoes, a habit i have recently decided to seek alternatives to. My issue is there are real leather shoes on the market but they seem to have polymer soles. I use no man made chemicals on my land or in or around my abode and do have vehicles using both diesel and gasoline.

Anyway in today's world it is not easy to change but for most things there are alternatives. There are some very interesting electric marine power systems some with a fairly decent range.
Bottom line is if we wish to change things for the better we ALL must be willing to belly up to the bar and accept the higher initial costs.

 

[psneeld]

"Ultra-Low Sulfur Heating Oil
Your heating oil is better than ever!

In 2010, New York State approved a switch to ultra-low sulfur heating oil (ULSHO), which reduces sulfur content in the fuel by 99 percent. The law went into effect on July 1, 2012. "


https://eseany.org/consumers/benefits-oilheat/

APRIL 18, 2012
Sulfur content of heating oil to be reduced in northeastern states


https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=5890#


Maybe the reason the 2 may be in the same truck for some distributers.

 

[DaveGibson]

This is an interesting thread, even though I am a retired boatless ol' sailor. Thanks to all for your responses.

When I did travel, it was down the eastern seaboard in my old Cheoy Lee LRC trawler. It had old Ford Lehman diesels. When I bought it, the fuel line was stuck in a jerry can with gawd knows what in it. It sat on the hard for 22 years and I didn't even know if the engines ran when I bought it. When I started it for the first time, praying it would turn over, it fired up within two secords.

I loved those old Ford Lehman 120s. I believe they would run on anything that burns.

 

[ronobrien]

One thing not mentioned above is that diesel fuel and home heating oli are taxed differently in some states. In Massachusetts, home heating oil is not taxed, diesel is, so using home heating oil in your boat probably breaks the law.


Also, the cetane comment above is spot on. I know that my marina sells a cetane improver so if you somehow could get a cetane analysis done on the heating oil, you could raise it to the manufacturer's spec.


For me, I bought Fintry's fuel at a fuel dock that did 15,000 gallons a day, precovid -- less now because there are fewer tourists boats, but still a lot. If I bought 1,000 gallons or more and paid with a check (no credit card discount), I paid $0.47 above the NY Spot Price for #2 diesel -- that would be $2.64 today. If you have large tanks, it pays to find a high volume fuel dock and negotiate.



Jim

That is true also in RI, but is for on road use only (road use tax). We run un-taxed (red dye) diesel in our off road equipment legally, so I don't see where the road use tax would apply to marine use.