Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-06-2023, 11:03 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
Rudder stuffing box

New to the forum and this is my first post. We are in the process of buying a 42 Hershine and this was about the most significant thing I found on the survey which is the starboard rudder box corrosion and very slow leak even with the packing tightened all the way. Question to you is how bad do you think this is and any ideas where to find the replacement box? Do you think it needs replacement or just clean and repack at next haul out?

The port box looks a little better but still has corrosion however does not leak.
Attached Thumbnails
PXL_20230602_164545577.jpg  
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 11:32 AM   #2
Guru
 
CharlieO.'s Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Vessel Name: Luna C.
Vessel Model: 1977 Marine Trader 34DC
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 1,288
You may be able to do a repack without haul to slow or eliminate the leak but I would be hesitant to work on that in the water though. It is pretty ugly. Can't you have it addressed in your offer?
CharlieO. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 11:34 AM   #3
Guru
 
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,316
Whether the stuffing box requires replacement depends on how it is constructed. Look at these examples of two rudder stuffing boxes.

The example on the left mounts the primary mounting flange inside of the hull and the sealing surface is below that flange and the inside of the hull. If yours is constructed like the unit on the left, I would say that it needs to be replaced as the plates look completely eroded in the corners where the nuts are located.

The example on the right, the primary flange is outside of the hull, seals to the outside of the hull and the thinner plate is a backing plate that mounts inside of the hull. If it is made like the unit on the right, you might just need to replace a backing plate, something you can make or have made.

In either case it should be removed from the hull, cleaned up and re-bedded at a minimum.
Attached Thumbnails
rudder boxes.png  
Gdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 11:54 AM   #4
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6,488
I zoomed-in (see attached). This fitting is wasted. Did the surveyor have any concerns about corrosion or bonding?

Buck Algonquin makes stuffing boxes with flange-mounted bases, but I could only find ones with single large gland nut vs the 'winged' press plate style.

Assuming you haven't said "I do" yet on the deal, I would ask for this to be repaired vs a survey credit. Type of thing that could have an iceberg beneath it......

Good luck - please update. Definitely curious to see how this goes.

Peter
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder Stuffing Box.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	119.2 KB
ID:	139530
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 12:09 PM   #5
Guru
 
Portage_Bay's Avatar
 
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pelorus
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,191
Be prepared for some work on the rudder posts as well. I just had my rudder packing boxes done and it took a bit of TLC on one of the posts by the yard's machinist. If the posts are bronze probably not too bad. Definitely do both port and starboard at the same time and given the wastage mvweebles point out don't wait too long or go too far before you address the problems.
__________________
Some things are worth doing simply because they are worth doing.
Portage_Bay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:10 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
I don't want the current owner to fix anything and we haven't finalized the deal yet either. I would prefer money off and I will address this myself when it gets hauled out after summer.

I am definitely not doing this while it's in the water.

From under the boat I do not see any bolts however I can now see that the rudder mount is recessed into the boat bottom and the bolts from underneath are covered with I'm guessing a filler then bottom paint as underneath is completely smooth.
Attached Thumbnails
PXL_20230602_164314272.jpg   PXL_20230602_164326698.MP.jpg  
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:20 PM   #7
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaAura View Post
I don't want the current owner to fix anything and we haven't finalized the deal yet either. I would prefer money off and I will address this myself when it gets hauled out after summer.

From under the boat I do not see any bolts so I am not sure where those studs are coming from that has the nut on it.
I'd have no idea how much money to knock-off on this one which is why I'd rather have it repaired vs a survey credit. I do not normally go immediately to disaster-diagnosis, but I have never seen corossion like that and fear the rudder post could have some crevice corossion too (as Portage Bay says). Without a decent diagnosis, I wouldn't be too eager to venture too far. The flange plate is swollen (rust???) and the retaining nut has been tightened deep into what was once solid metal suggesting there may not be much structure left. Who knows - maybe a tapping a log with your rudder or wrapping a line might be a tipping point.

Keep your SeaTow current; and toss a can of SplashZone in your laz just in case.

Good luck -

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:22 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I zoomed-in (see attached). This fitting is wasted. Did the surveyor have any concerns about corrosion or bonding?

Buck Algonquin makes stuffing boxes with flange-mounted bases, but I could only find ones with single large gland nut vs the 'winged' press plate style.

Assuming you haven't said "I do" yet on the deal, I would ask for this to be repaired vs a survey credit. Type of thing that could have an iceberg beneath it......

Good luck - please update. Definitely curious to see how this goes.

Peter
Attachment 139530

I also can not find the winged style either. I think as posted above it is the backing plate style so I can remove the backing plates clean and rebed then replace the packing and re secure.
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:23 PM   #9
Guru
 
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaAura View Post
I don't want the current owner to fix anything and we haven't finalized the deal yet either. I would prefer money off and I will address this myself when it gets hauled out after summer.

I am definitely not doing this while it's in the water.

From under the boat I do not see any bolts however I can now see that the rudder mount is recessed into the boat bottom and the bolts from underneath are covered with I'm guessing a filler then bottom paint as underneath is completely smooth.
The heads to the hardware may have been recessed into the hull and glassed or faired over and therefore not visible. Is the boat currently on the hard?, can you snap some pictures or did the surveyor take some of the hull at the rudders?
Gdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:28 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
We just pulled it for survey and it's back in the water. I have many photos I took. You can see the rudder in this photo.
Attached Thumbnails
PXL_20230602_224350365.MP~2 (1).jpg  
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 01:55 PM   #11
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
Those are salt deposits that are making the bolt look like it's pressed into the backing plate.
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 02:11 PM   #12
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaAura View Post
We just pulled it for survey and it's back in the water. I have many photos I took. You can see the rudder in this photo.
GDavid posted two pics of a stuffing gland above. This looks like the first one, likely cut-down a but so 1/2" extends below hull. The bolt-heads would be buried and glassed-over, same as is typically done with sea-cocks.

The layers on the base plate sure look like steel/rust. Are you pretty sure it's bronze? It should be, but the flaking sure looks like something ferrous even though that would be a no-no in this application. If non-magnetic, I'd feel better about waiting to do the work.

What did your surveyor say? Any concerns? He's there and can poke it with an awl.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 02:38 PM   #13
Guru
 
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,316
It looks like the example to the left in the photos I posted earlier, the two bolts versus single large nut style really doesn't matter (to my knowledge).

I would want it repaired prior to going back into the water, especially because this rudder does not have any support at the bottom. If I was doing the work myself, I would plan for $500-1000 and two days but budget $2K and two weekends, assuming the boat is already out of the water. If I was hiring the work out, I would double that.

In my opinion (discounted), any hardware on a ~20 year old boat is due for re-bedding and inspection anyway, the fact that the fitting is degraded and requires replacement is not shocking at all, it does not appear to be bonded to the cathodic protection of the boat. I would try to bargain for $2-4k off the price and use the funds to replace both, as well as re-bed any other hardware that has not been documented to be refreshed. Have the surveyor take a look when you are done and you will be better positioned when shopping insurance.
Gdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 02:57 PM   #14
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdavid View Post
..... If I was doing the work myself, I would plan for $500-1000 and two days but budget $2K and two weekends, assuming the boat is already out of the water. If I was hiring the work out, I would double that.
.....
Plus haul and lay-days.....plus parts/fasteners/bedding/bonding/epoxy/etc.. $4k for yard feels about right since DIY-tolerant yards are rare.

Gdavid- you always have a decent handle on stuff like this. What do you think the chances of crevice corrosion to the rudder post as Portage Bay experienced?

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 02:59 PM   #15
Guru
 
Portage_Bay's Avatar
 
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pelorus
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,191
You asked for opinions. Mine is this is potentially very serious and not worth taking any chances.

Before you decide to cruise farther than the soonest possible haul out, you did say she's back in the water? Consider the likely and possible failures. Think how you will handle said failures. I see the possibility for loss of steering and or serious flooding. But that's just me looking at a few pics.

What I see is twin rudders tied together with the steering ram attached to one rudder. It looks like typical hydraulic steering with no mechanical backup. There may be some sort of stop collar near the top of the rudder posts that would prevent the post dropping out of the bottom. But the packing box is so corroded that it could totally fail. Even if the rudder is contained in the event of a packing box failure if it jams one rudder then both are inoperative.

If your surveyor won't give an assessment of the potential and risk of failure consider working with one of the yard's senior mechanical techs.
__________________
Some things are worth doing simply because they are worth doing.
Portage_Bay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 03:05 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
It's bronze you can see it in my original photo also it looks like the example on the right the one with the backing plate. It is supported by the large stainless stand on the inside so it is supported in two places.

Surveyor just said it needs to be cleaned and repacked.
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 03:18 PM   #17
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaAura View Post
Surveyor just said it needs to be cleaned and repacked.
Thats good - he's there and with experience so you have to go with his experience. If he says there's good metal, great.

But I have a question - I added a few arrows to your original picture. I have not seen bronze oxidize like this which was cause for my alarm. The corners of the plate seem wasted too. Maybe I'm just not seeing this correctly. Any ideas what is showing?

Peter

Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder Post with Arrows.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	162.5 KB
ID:	139538
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 03:20 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
City: Longview
Vessel Name: TBD
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 38
I believe what looks to be corroded and flaking is black sealant not the metal. Unfortunately I am not close to this boat and I should have scrubbed and cleaned these when I was there to inspect further. The owner lives very close so I am going to have him do this and take photos for further investigation to see how bad it is.
AquaAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 03:21 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,009
Cleaning it up will definitely give a much better idea of what's going on. It's hard to tell for sure what's sealant, what's corrosion, and what's dirt or salt residue added to the mix.
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2023, 03:28 PM   #20
Moderator Emeritus
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 20,262
That type of shaft log is easy to repack, assuming you can get it apart, basically loosen and remove the nuts. Then take the top plate off. Use a packing removal tool, looks like a corkscrew, to pull the old packing. Find out what size packing you need. Easy way is to use drill bits and see what size drill bit fits in between the shaft and the side of the log. Cut the new packing by looping it around the rudder shaft and cutting it with a razor blade. Then insert the new packing down into the cavity. I use a piece of PVC that has the same ID as the rudder shaft OD and cut it in two lengthwise. Then wrap the new packing around the rudder shaft and push it in with the PVC. That way it will slide in evenly. Then add more wraps to fill the cavity. Turn the cuts so they are staggered so water can’t just run up through the cuts. I like Duramax packing.

As to the condition of the shaft log. I would take an awl and poke it to see if it is solid or is it corroded away. Maybe get a brass or bronze brush and clean off some of the crap so you can see it clearly. Then make a decision as to keep it or replace it.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012