Rotella T6 Synthetic!!!

[Bacchus]

I'll make one comment that I don't believe has been expressed in this thread so far. I also believe the Cox Eng article is the best I've seen relative to marine diesel applicatio... many other oft quoted studies are for emission system equipped vehicles and not as applicable to marine.
The additional point I got from the Cox article is that the API rating can be as / more important than viscosity ratings.
While the API ratings always state they are backward compatible with prior ratingsoOur marine application is very different than OTR use w emission systems. I do believe Cox as well as at least some of the eng mfg have updated their API recommendation for oil but I haven't seen any that have gone all the way to the very latest ratings.

 

[Nomad Willy]

FWIW...

My normal oil change regime starts with a barnacle run up the river and back... then I drain both engines, both gears, and genset once we're back at the dock.

The engine room is too warm at that point to fool with filters and refill, though, so that's the "tomorrow" part of the project.

-Chris

HaHa I assume a “barnacle run” is running fast to “wash off” the barnacles. Hmmm ... didn’t know one could go that fast ?? I’ll try but my 6 knot Willard may not be up to the task.

Sure like your method of changing oil. Jerk the oil out and finish after the engine cools down. May loose less oil out the horizontal filter too. You may think it never gets hot up here but lately it’s gotten into the very low 90’s. But that’s a little unusual. I’ve been sweaty numerous times wondering how you guys down south do it. Again I’m on board w your “tomorrow” method. Thanks

 

[Northern Spy]

True, but if you own an old diesel (Ford Lehman, cough, cough), the API service category which was recommended when new is now obsolete.

API does not allow labeling of oil in service category CA, CB, CC, CD, CD-II, or CE as the test methods to verify them are no longer available.

So, if you are using an oil with an API certification, it has to be CF or higher, unless you stumble upon some (really) old stock, or it is illegitimate.

Reference API 1509, appendix A.

If you really want to know the technical difference in oils to understand the minimum requirements, one needs to read ASTM D4485, API 1509, SAE J300, and some ILSAC GFs.

Frankly, it's not worth the time...

I purchase my oil which meets the engine manufacturer's spec. In my case VDS-2, API CH-4, 15w/40.

I try not to mix and match because I want the additive packs to be compatible. Staying with a single brand helps me there. I think I am using Rotella (non-synthetic). I'm honestly not sure. I'd have to look at the jug or the log.

 

[Nomad Willy]

But the service category does not spec the viscosity.
You have a Yanmar ... right? Does Yanmar spec 30 weight as an option? Or would 15/w40 be the "option". My Mitsu manual recommends both MV and non-MV.

But most S4L2 Mitsu engines find their way to small front end loaders and the like. They will be exposed to freezing temps and should have the multi-vis.

 

[Northern Spy]

Volvo. VDS stands for Volvo Drain Specification.

Service category is defined by API. Viscosity grades are defined by SAE J300. Testing is done to multiple ASTM standards.

I doubt that many modern small engine manufacturer are going to recommend a straight weight oil. It's a global market, so not only do they need to meet North American specs, but ACEA and Global DHD specs as well.

I really don't understand your hang-up with multi-grade oils and the use of Viscosity Index improvers.

 

[Gray Dog]

Oil Burn

My Cummins 6BT burns 1 quart over 150 hours. Now has 3800 hours.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Spy,
I’ll try to answer that.
There are unknowns re the viscosity improvers. The viscosity of lube oil even w/o VI is even a little cloudy.
But the issue w me and the MV treated oil is that benefits are not very specific. There’s a balance issue. Benefits v/s drawbacks.
The benefits of MV is basically obvious. Oil not so thick when cold. Oil is thicker when hot. Most people are not going to notice the lie I just told.
The truth is that oil dosn’t thin out quite as much as it would w/o the VI. And the “not quite as much” amount is vague ... not known to me anyway. So as I see it the benefits basically may not even be there or not to the degree that would motivate me to use it.
I read that the VI takes up space limiting the amount of oil in the oil to some degree. To what degree I’m not sure. Like the two posters on this thread that seem to know more or even much more than I do and they aren’t even close to being in alignment .. agreeing w each other.

In my boat I don’t think there is any significant downside to using straight weight oil. So if I was to use MV oil I would be gaining essentially nothing. But there will be better lubrication because MV improvers will replace some of the oil that would be there w straight weight oil. And “some of the oil” may be a significantly greater amount that we know.

So Spy I think there “probably” is more to gain and less to loose by using straight weight oil in my boat engine. And in my head the case for using dino oil is similar.

Most people are under the impression that products created later in time are improved versions of the “older” product and better. Most are. Most vehicle lube oil (almost all of it) is formulated for engines that will often experience freezing temps and find the MV oil very useful. So that explains the reason most vehicular lube oils are with MV improvers. And keep in mind that all MV oils are made from the lower viscosity in their designation. 10w30 oil is 10 weight oil modified to perform (temperature and viscosity wise) at some specific temperature like a higher viscosity oil would at that temp. So MV oil never thickens as it gets hotter. It just dosn’t thin out as much.

So I think most other people feel newer products are better .. older things are .. well “old school” and by their nature inferior. But some of the things oil does will be better served using the older product.

 

[psneeld]

Some marine fleets, two that I worked for, have been using 15W40 for hundreds of thousands of hours with no reasons to change in their minds.

 

[catalinajack]

Some marine fleets, two that I worked for, have been using 15W40 for hundreds of thousands of hours with no reasons to change in their minds.

And that speaks volumes to the doubters my friends. The idea that viscosity improvers decrease lube capabilities, although it may seem logical to some, is, in fact, preposterous. Logic has no place in science.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Well if you wanna use a product that has no advantages worth mentioning and use a product that most all the other blokes on the dock are using that has a definite disadvantage ... do it. You're lucky though in that the difference is so slight you or I or most anybody else on the dock will not notice a difference. As said before.

Like I do however, don't forget to use MV in your cars.
And re synthetic look at your manuals.
This thread is closed IMO.

 

[psneeld]

I also should have said Dino oil and not synthetics also in my last post.

 

[Dcbeach]

On topic not discussed but definitely worth mention is oil level. In my experience over filling the oil is a major cause of excess oil burn. When I bought my KK42 the engine had just been serviced by the yard. My Lehman 135 burned about 1/2 quart every 10-12 hours. I was sick about the thought. The previous owner was shocked when I discussed this with him. He then instructed me to remove the dipstick and closely inspect it To find the “new “ scratch mark. It is about a 1/2” below the original safe zone. Once filled to this mark problem solved! Less than a quart per 100 hrs.
I can’t say if the dipstick had been replaced. But I can say that using the exact amount of oil recommended for the engine filled it to the new scratch mark.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Dcbeach,
I think there was a discussion about that two or so years ago.
I have a vague recollection that there was discussion about the Ford engine was oil marked as a truck or tractor engine probably horizontal and as a marine engine the shaft angle produced erroneous readings w the new attitude.

 

[smitty477]

The angle an engine is mounted in your boat can affect the way a dipstick reads the oil level.
Even putting the dipstick in and reading it with the same reference to its 'flats' can affect the readings.
Its always a good idea to check and remark a dipstick with the appropriate amount when performing an oil change. I have found it helpful to also fill and mark the sticks with a level that is 1 qt low for future reference.

 

[catalinajack]

The angle an engine is mounted in your boat can affect the way a dipstick reads the oil level.
Even putting the dipstick in and reading it with the same reference to its 'flats' can affect the readings.
Its always a good idea to check and remark a dipstick with the appropriate amount when performing an oil change. I have found it helpful to also fill and mark the sticks with a level that is 1 qt low for future reference.

I recently had the engines realigned F120. One side required a lot of adjustment, a long story not relevant to this discussion. Bottom line was the dipstick on that side ended up requiring remarking as indicated by the oil level before and after the realignment. I changed the oil in both engines to recalibrate, a downright shame cuz there was only 300 hours on still good synthetic oil per a recent oil analysis. The difference was about 8 oz., not much by why not be more precise. Overfilling engine oil on any engine is not good.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Thought about you synthetic guys yesterday.
At my favorite NAPA store right beside my favorite oil (Delo 30) was the gallons of Rotella T6. HaHa

 

[catalinajack]

Thought about you synthetic guys yesterday.
At my favorite NAPA store right beside my favorite oil (Delo 30) was the gallons of Rotella T6. HaHa

Willy. You kill me. So, I do one trip to the store for every three of yours. But, you're happy, I'm happy, and our Lehmans don't know the difference.

 

[Slowmo]

I spent my career developing engine oils (and managing teams doing so). People tend to attribute a lot of things to synthetic that aren't really related to being 'synthetic'. However, synthetics (from major suppliers like Shell) tend to have good performance because for several reasons. First is that since the base oil is expensive, the oil marketer is willing to put a strong addtiive package (deposit control, oxidation control, wear control etc) in the oil. Second, synthetic lubricant base oils have a higher viscosity index which results in lower volatility (evaporative loss) and allows reduced use of polymeric viscosity modifier. Third, most synthetic base oils have no or minimal wax and thus flow at very low temperatures. For boats this last bit isn't important, we seldom start up at -30F. However my guess is that the oil consumption drop is related to lower volatility, especially if you're running turbocharged engines which use oil jets to cool the bottom of the pistons. All that said, any good quality engine oil with good maintenance will give good longevity. As a lubricant expert I'd recommend synthetic if you ran turbocharged engines near max power (e.g. a planning boat) for extended periods. Otherwise it's more of an emotional choice.

Ive seen a lot of opinions about engine lubricants, but lubricants are scientific product developed by teams of chemists and engineers and must pass millions of dollars of specification testing. When people ask what they shoudl buy my answer is a top quality oil from a major oil marketer (Shell, Chevron, ExxonMobil, BP Castrol, Total). You'll note some well known 'synthetic' marketers are not on that list...for a reason.

 

[BruceK]

I spent my career developing engine oils (and managing teams doing so). People tend to attribute a lot of things to synthetic that aren't really related to being 'synthetic'. However, synthetics (from major suppliers like Shell) tend to have good performance because for several reasons. First is that since the base oil is expensive....

Noting your extensive experience, and comment that "the base oil is expensive", is synthetic oil really "synthetic"and if so, what is it based on instead of oil?

 

[GoneFarrell]

Slomo, thanks for the post! Esp re the wax thing.

My understanding of multi-vis dino vs syn (for say, a 10W-30) is that dino viscosity is closer to a 10 weight when cold due to the wax load in the base stock, thus requiring VI improvers to meet multi-vis spec when hot.

But 10W-30 syn base stock meets 30 weight spec (when hot) and can meet 10W spec when cold because it has little to no waxes that cause cold viscosity to climb in dino oil.

Feel free to educate me if I'm wrong!

 

[Slowmo]

Ah, the definitionof 'synthetic' is tricky, I'll come back to that. However, from a practical standpoint 'synthetic' lubricants use high viscosity index (VI) base oils. Conventional base oil has a VI of around 100, high VI is anything more than 120. As I said in my other post, VI is a measure of the change in viscosity with temperature, a higher VI changes less with temperature i.e, thins less when hot, thickens less when cold.

When synthetics first started entering the mainstream (e.g. Mobil1) they used something call polyalphaolifin (PAO) and a small amout of various esters. PAO is an oligimerization (just combining) of decene (C10 hydrocarbon) into higher molecular weight molecules to achieve the desired viscosity. Esters cover a wide range of materials but can be used to adjust the properties of the PAO. However, as base oil technology has advanced, there are now many sources of high VI base oil manufactured using hydrocracking targeting 120+VI.

Shell has a unique position though, they built a big natural gas to liquids plant in Quatar that makes base oil from natural gas using the old Fisher Tropsch technology (invented by the Germans in the 1920's and used in WWII to make fuel from natural gas). This base oil is in the range of 140 VI, very similar to PAO in VI. It's really quite a good base oil (no I'm not a 'plant' from Shell), it doesn't need any adjusting fluid,is less expensive than PAO, and actually I think performs better. PAO is used in some applications mainly due to its superior ultra low temperature flow capability.

Now back to the he formal definition of synthetic: it is that the molecules comprising the base oil are artificially made (synthesized) rather than being a distillation product of crude oil. Many years ago when synthetics started, all base oils were distillation products of some type. However, today, almost all base oil, 'conventional' or 'synthetic' are actually synthesized via hydrocracking and isomerization (i.e. break down the molecules and build them up with the properties you want). The only difference is the VI targeted in manufacturing. These base oils have no sulfur (which was a residual of distillation) and are very 'pure', they appear almostwater white before additives are added (additives tend to be darker). So by the formal definition of syntetic, every quart of oil you buy for your car could be called synthetic. Chevron alludes to this by saying it contains 'Isosyn', they were the leader in this change to synthesized 'conventional' base oil. By the way, these base oils ARE better than the old distilled ones.

So, synthetic is really a marketing definition these days and by no means are all of them the same. But keep in mind 'synthetic' base oil doesn't impart any miraculous properties, claims of 'molecular bonding' and 'stronger films' are mainly clever marketing. The wear, oxidation, corrosion, and deposit control of modern engine oils today is carried by the additive package. A combination of anywhere from 5 to 15+ descrete chemical compounds added to the base oil to meet the performance requirments.

The last question is what are these oils based on instead of oil. Well as I said, Shell uses natural gas. Almost all of the other fluids are derived from crude oil by one route or another, even PAO.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Slomo, thanks for that! Confirms a lot of my experience with lube oils.

Retired engineer here too. One of my first professional experiences with the world of oil was when I had to make a hydraulically operated machine I designed work in a -40F ice cream freezer warehouse. That's when I learned about 5606 grade aviation hydraulic fluid and how it had been deep dewaxed with extra steps in the refining process for cold service in airplanes at altitude. Got the machine to work with that, no way it would run with conventional 10 weight hyd oil.

Lately, I have synthesized Golden Ale and Czech Pils from water, malt and grain. It is a fine lubricant for mind & body. Keep that thought should you wander north this summer, my boat (& malted beverage lube) is kept in La Conner.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Slomo,
If I was to get a jug of Mobile 1 w/o any viscosity improver added what would be it’s viscosity?
I have been getting 5-30 Mobile for my Avalon car at the dealer to take advantage of his bulk oil prices. I can’t buy oil at his retail price to me.. the’ve been putting 5-30 in my car. With MV range that wide I assumed it was synthetic ... but I learn it’s not even a blend.

My engine has well over 250hp and I drive moderately hence low engine loads and temps so I’m not feeling the need for synthetic. That said what lube oils are available w less VI .. or none at all? If I can find oil suitable for my car w far less VI I’ll start changing my oil again.

Lastly beyond more frequent changes what can I do to minimize sludge buildup?

HaHa I was just in the auto parts store and see adv. syn. 10-30 for 9.99 qt.

 

[Slowmo]

Slomo, thanks for that! Confirms a lot of my experience with lube oils.

Retired engineer here too. One of my first professional experiences with the world of oil was when I had to make a hydraulically operated machine I designed work in a -40F ice cream freezer warehouse. That's when I learned about 5606 grade aviation hydraulic fluid and how it had been deep dewaxed with extra steps in the refining process for cold service in airplanes at altitude. Got the machine to work with that, no way it would run with conventional 10 weight hyd oil.

Lately, I have synthesized Golden Ale and Czech Pils from water, malt and grain. It is a fine lubricant for mind & body. Keep that thought should you wander north this summer, my boat (& malted beverage lube) is kept in La Conner.

Sounds good! We store in Anacortes (on the hard). Planning a trip in a few weeks. Still sorting things on the Tollycraft so doing a couple shorter trips this summer (did one in June).

 

[Slowmo]

Slomo,
If I was to get a jug of Mobile 1 w/o any viscosity improver added what would be it’s viscosity?
I have been getting 5-30 Mobile for my Avalon car at the dealer to take advantage of his bulk oil prices. I can’t buy oil at his retail price to me.. the’ve been putting 5-30 in my car. With MV range that wide I assumed it was synthetic ... but I learn it’s not even a blend.

My engine has well over 250hp and I drive moderately hence low engine loads and temps so I’m not feeling the need for synthetic. That said what lube oils are available w less VI .. or none at all? If I can find oil suitable for my car w far less VI I’ll start changing my oil again.

Lastly beyond more frequent changes what can I do to minimize sludge buildup?

HaHa I was just in the auto parts store and see adv. syn. 10-30 for 9.99 qt.

Most 5W30 are conventional, but I wouldn't worry about it. They all use Group II base oils (hydrocracked, isomerized, isodewaxed). Modern ILSAC GF5/API SN oils have quite a bit of dispersant, detergent, and antioxidant in them. They're very robust. Even synthetic oils use viscosity modifier (VM), just a bit less. But with the additive systems in these oils the difference in VM level isn't important in real world driving.

Doesn't your Avalon specify 5w-20 engine oil? If so I'd use that. If the engine is designed for 5W20 there's no added protection with a 5W30. I know people back up at the low viscosity but really its OK. Make sure you use an ILSAC GF5 / API SN oil from a major supplier like Pennzoil (Shell), Chevron, Mobil, etc. Unless your engine specifies synthetic, or you start doing cold starts in North Dakota in the winter, synthetic won't offer and real benefit.

Sludge: Sludge is a result of short trip low temperature driving i.e. 2-3 mile trips where the oil never gets warm enough to drive off the condensation. Modern oils have a lot of sludge protection. However, if you drive only short trips, then shorten your oil change interval. Normally most of us drive long enough to heat the oil and drive off moisure at least once a week.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Thanks much for your response and help.

I almost always drive 30 miles after a startup. So not a sludge problem by your input and I’m going w it.

Re the 5-20 you’re probably right for the Avalon. I don’t ever pull a trailer or go up a mountain pass in 90+ heat either.

And the 10-30 “Advanced” full synthetic is only $29 for 5 quarts at the Irish auto parts store.

Thanks