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Old 06-08-2019, 07:09 AM   #21
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I have no idea how much oil my 120 burns. Most of the "consumption" is leaks.
3 to 4 oil diapers per season.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:54 AM   #22
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Oil consumption? Maybe?

Then again the thin easily drained synthetic oil film will not be as good when the engine is shut down at rust prevention.

Two fallacies in one sentence. First, synthetic oil is not "thin". Every dino or synthetic formulation will have the SAME viscosity in a particular oil, SAE 15W-40, for example. So, synthetic oils are no more or no less "thin" than a same-rated dino oil. A synthetic oil may APPEAR to be more "thin" when poured at any particular temperature because of the nature of synthetic oils. In fact, that is one of the benefits of synthetics, they pour more freely.



The second fallacy is that synthetics drain down faster and more completely than dino oils. It is just the opposite. Because of the molecular structure of synthetics, they cling to parts and provide better start-up protection whereas dino oils do drain down, the cause of dry start-ups which is when most engine wear occurs.


Whether any of this is "worth it" when it comes to older engines certainly engenders many opinions. I use it because of the extended drain opportunities which, in fact, makes its use no more expensive than dino oil yet the user gets the benefits of the synthetics. And, no, soot is not a problem if a good filter is used. Tests of my last batch of synthetic showed no elevated soot levels after 300 hours and the oil was recommended for continued use by the testing lab. I can be as cheap as any guy here but using synthetics to me is cost-saving not to mention cutting down on oil changes on a 6,500-mile cruise.
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:06 AM   #23
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I would consider 1/2 qt per engine over 11 hours to be excessive consumption. I have Lehmans, 1 needs a qt. after 120 hrs and the other goes 180 hrs between changes without any.
av8r,
I agree at this point.
And I assume you mean “above normal” consumption.
There’s another “normal” and that would be what most people experience. But that is probably mostly leaking.
But if you’ve got an old trawler w old engines or engine and oil “disappearance” was/is one quart every 20hrs I would guess you may over time consider that your normal. And not excessive until replacing or/and cleaning up the disappearing oil became a greater problem than replacing while you run your boat. I would assume lots of replacing could take place before you’d be thinking about rebuilding or replacing the engine.

So w Rufus’s oil disappearance at one qt. per 20hrs would be easy to deal with in the grand scheme of maintenance and economics. That would mean adding oil every other day of running. Or at worst every day. I’d gladly add the oil and dismiss any thoughts of rebuilding or repowering.

But since switching to synthetic stopped the disappearance of oil I’m think’in the additive in all synthetic oil that combats the natural tendency for synthetic oil to shrink rubber oil seals is to swell the seals w the additive that swells the seals. Since Rufus’s engines are old seals are probably worn. So the fact that the disappearance of oil stopping may be caused by the seals swelling from the synthetic additive. But in reality Rufus’s engines should be leaking oil from gaskets ect because of age. However Rufus may be one that stays ahead of things like leaky gaskets and properly replaces the gaskets. But since the disappearance of oil stopped one would think Rufus had no oil leakage from gaskets and the like and his seal leakage stopped because of the additive in the synthetic oil that swells seals.

The above is just keyboard thinking.
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:26 AM   #24
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"So, synthetic oils are no more or no less "thin" than a same-rated dino oil."

In terns of SAE viscosity that is correct , but synthetics are more easily scraped down by the oil ring which gives better fuel mileage , the big reason they are demanded for newer cars.,CAFE,.and their emission systems.

Syn oils do have better sheer strength , so engines with gears to operate multiple overhead valve sets can probably gain longevity , most high performance (0-60 in under 4 seconds) carmaker specify syn.

Even my MB motor home demands Syn oil , its low ash content makes it easier to regenerate the emissions system.

After the VW debacle the world wide fear of the US Air Police is staggering.
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:16 PM   #25
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The engines in our boat don't leak. But the crankcase ventilation is very crude....basically a pipe coming out the top of the valve cover that's aimed at the air filter on the turbo. I added a makeshift oil separator (some scotchbrite stuffed into the pipe), and a catch can hanging at the end of the vent pipe to recover the drips. But I'm pretty sure the whole arrangement has been pulling more than it's share of oil laden air out of the valve covers (rather than just venting). So this is a source of oil burn, as it gets sucked straight into the turbo and subsequently burned. I've been considering a Walker air/oil separator for years, but like others found it easy and inexpensive to just add oil. Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder if the synthetic oil might be less prone to being suspended in the crankcase and valve train mist, and therefor less likely to be pulled through that vent pipe and into the inlet side.

I should have a better sense of the reduction in oil consumption after run time builds on the engines. I probably should have waited to report on my findings before posting, but I was genuinely amazed when I checked the dip sticks.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:49 PM   #26
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I didn’t read all the comments, it I’ll add this....I love T6. I put that shit in everything I own, from my old M3 to my 5.9 Cummins truck, to my old lawn mower.

To give you an idea of how tough this oil is, I have a car that I race once in a while. It’s a 4th gen Camaro with an LT1. I had one weekend where my oil temps were about 315 degrees for a total of either 20-25 minute sessions. I sent an oil sample out as soon as I got home and wrote exactly what my oil temps were and for how long. Didn’t hurt a thing including the oil!!!
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:21 AM   #27
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I use T6 on my diesel Jetta as it has a dry turbo which is prone to hot shutdown heat soak. Also heard it has an issue of coking oil on piston bottoms and top ring grooves. Been using it for last 100+k miles, did a sample, came back ok at 10k interval. I think it is good stuff.

On my boat 450C Cummins, I still use dino Rotella 15-40. It has a wet turbo and never gets shut down quick from a hard run. I also only cruise it at max of 220hp, which should not get piston temps up where coking is an issue. I think. At about 4000hrs on it so if there was an issue, I'd probably have seen it by now.

Oil sample at 250hrs on the Cummins showed the oil was fine for continued use, but I end up changing it anyway at around 300hrs just because running beyond that puts a nag in my mind, and I start thinking about it.

The VW definitely specs a syn. The Cummins does not, so there is that too.

This is highly non-technical, but it seems some engines "like" some flavor of oil over other flavors. So if your engine is doing something weird, like using oil, nothing wrong with trying another flavor.

Going with syn does not automatically mean you can extend change intervals. Crud added to good oil still ends up being cruddy oil. Sampling is what tells the story. Even dino oil can go well beyond spec change intervals, and it has more to do with engine duty cycle and other stuff, not so much whether dino or syn.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Going with syn does not automatically mean you can extend change intervals. Crud added to good oil still ends up being cruddy oil. Sampling is what tells the story. Even dino oil can go well beyond spec change intervals, and it has more to do with engine duty cycle and other stuff, not so much whether dino or syn.

Yes, yes, extended drain intervals only with testing. The crud you mention I am guessing you mean soot. Testing will reveal three important factors for diesel engine oil, soot, viscosity, and total base number. If, when tested, the oil is within bounds for all three, it is good for continued use. Several times now, after 300 hours my synthetic tested good for all three factors. Given that most folks change their oil at around 150 -200 hours, sometimes even 100 hours, that 300 hour point is my break-even point in terms of per hour cost. Just for the convenience of having to change oil half as many times, I find the synthetic no more expensive and never mind all of the other benefits that come with its use. Use that oil beyond 300 hours and it is "all for free".



So, for the "traditionalists", in view of the facts please explain a good reason not to use synthetics since, in the long run, synthetics are cheaper.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:28 AM   #29
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catjack,
Much talk about “all the benefits of synthetic” but no specifics.
Makes me think of hype.

And if you care to respond please list only real advantages to the average trawler.

I have said why synthetics and MV oils aren’t needed in rec trawlers many times. And the average trawler probably does not have a turbo. And the way most are run it probably dosn’t matter either.
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Old 06-09-2019, 12:53 PM   #30
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Just a datapoint for the discussion, my port Lehman 135 uses 1 qt per 25 hours cruising, the starboard one uses 1 qt per 35 hrs. Both have very little smoke. They both run excellently and consistently have good oil reports.

Seems good to me.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:34 PM   #31
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kchase,
Re discussion please indicate type of oil.
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Old 06-09-2019, 03:16 PM   #32
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Rotella 15-40
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Old 06-09-2019, 05:00 PM   #33
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kchace,
OK good .. dino.
I run my engine at a 50% load 98% of the time. If I had a turbo and ran at 70% I’d run synthetic.
Re my car the dealer said not to change back and forth tween syn and dino and I’ve heard that many times. I suspect that it may have to do w the additive to combat the shrinking. Shrink relax, shrink relax ..... Perhaps the rubber seals don’t like that.
Rotella 15-40 is probably the most common lube oil used on TF. I use Delo 30. Don’t see the need for MV. I always warm my engine up slowly. Even in Alaska it always cranked smartly .. and started normally.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:57 AM   #34
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Just to be clear about pour-ability of oil.....

from a marine engineer.... "Hmmmm, last time I looked "pour more freely" was the definition of lower viscosity or "thinner" oil"

From Princeton University - The definition of viscosity

"Viscosity is a measure of a fluid's resistance to flow. It describes the internal friction of a moving fluid. A fluid with large viscosity resists motion because its molecular makeup gives it a lot of internal friction. A fluid with low viscosity flows easily because its molecular makeup results in very little friction when it is in motion."


Best to really understand the oil you chose than going by "rules of thumbs" or perception. No I am not saying use the oil your manufacturer recommended in a 5 year old or even 10 year old manual...but know what different types of oil is really going to do for YOUR engine, how you use it and how you wish to maintain it.


Just like extending oil intervals...I do oil analysis every 100 or so hoursof running. Not because I am concerned with oil wear or engine wear...I am concerned with oil dilution or contamination. Either can signal a major or stop an engine in far less time than engine wear. The oil change could take place AFTER the analysis...but the lag in reports are times well with my cruising style...so it works for me.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:41 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
So, for the "traditionalists", in view of the facts please explain a good reason not to use synthetics since, in the long run, synthetics are cheaper.
The 6CT 300 HP Cummins in my charter boat gets run hard. Short warm up followed by 5 minutes of slow operation, then up to 80% for hours. When I get on site, it's slow operation for ten minutes, then shut down. The return trip is the same. First 50 hours uses less than one quart in 50 hours. Somewhere between 50 and 100 hours oil consumption goes to one quart in 6 hours. Oil is black by 25 hours. IMO, the soot levels drive a lot of this. IMO, the soot is likely there regardless of oil type. So, I think it's more beneficial to change the oil in this application every 50 hours. Really don't feel that running 3 times as long with 3 times as much soot is a good idea. Oil analysis with each oil change says everything is good.

My Dodge pickup with a Cummins 6BT 220 HP runs on average at 25% of capacity. Engine has 469,000 miles (9,400 hours) on it and uses less than a quart of oil between oil changes (every 5,000 miles). Oil is amber at oil changes. While oil analysis is still good at 5,000 miles, I don't think extending oil changes to 15,000 miles to justify the use of synthetic makes sense. Feel that additional oil analysis would be required to make sure the additives remain at acceptable levels between oil changes. Also feel that less than 2 oil changes per year is less desirable than 4 to 6.

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Old 06-10-2019, 08:32 AM   #36
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The engines in our boat don't leak. But the crankcase ventilation is very crude....basically a pipe coming out the top of the valve cover that's aimed at the air filter on the turbo. I added a makeshift oil separator (some scotchbrite stuffed into the pipe), and a catch can hanging at the end of the vent pipe to recover the drips. But I'm pretty sure the whole arrangement has been pulling more than it's share of oil laden air out of the valve covers (rather than just venting). So this is a source of oil burn, as it gets sucked straight into the turbo and subsequently burned. I've been considering a Walker air/oil separator for years, but like others found it easy and inexpensive to just add oil. Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder if the synthetic oil might be less prone to being suspended in the crankcase and valve train mist, and therefor less likely to be pulled through that vent pipe and into the inlet side.

I should have a better sense of the reduction in oil consumption after run time builds on the engines. I probably should have waited to report on my findings before posting, but I was genuinely amazed when I checked the dip sticks.
I would use what the manufacturer recommends....
Oil for yacht engines – Cox Engineering
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:38 AM   #37
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An oil's viscosity rating, 15W-40 for example, only tells part of the story. The 15W number is the rating at 104 degrees. The 40 number is the rating at 212 degrees. At lower temperatures, synthetics do, in fact, pour more freely than do conventional oils despite the nominal SAE rating. It has to do with the molecular structure of the oil. Take a look at the YouTube video I attached. It was a demo performed by Shell Oil. It says all you need to know. Last I knew Shell sells synthetics and conventional so this demo holds no bias. There is a place for both types. Now don't go crazy when you see that the test was done at a temp of -40 degrees. There is a significant difference in pour characteristic at all cold temps. That is why synthetics are better at mitigating cold start-up wear at any temperature as they flow to the internals faster than synthetics. Now, the old wives tale is that 90% of engine wear occurs at start-up and warm-up. If one accepts that synthetics flow better than conventional at any temperature, one must conclude that any engine wil last longer using synthetics.


There will always be non-believers despite science and facts. There is no such thing as global warming/climate change, is there?








Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Just to be clear about pour-ability of oil.....

from a marine engineer.... "Hmmmm, last time I looked "pour more freely" was the definition of lower viscosity or "thinner" oil"

From Princeton University - The definition of viscosity

"Viscosity is a measure of a fluid's resistance to flow. It describes the internal friction of a moving fluid. A fluid with large viscosity resists motion because its molecular makeup gives it a lot of internal friction. A fluid with low viscosity flows easily because its molecular makeup results in very little friction when it is in motion."


Best to really understand the oil you chose than going by "rules of thumbs" or perception. No I am not saying use the oil your manufacturer recommended in a 5 year old or even 10 year old manual...but know what different types of oil is really going to do for YOUR engine, how you use it and how you wish to maintain it.


Just like extending oil intervals...I do oil analysis every 100 or so hoursof running. Not because I am concerned with oil wear or engine wear...I am concerned with oil dilution or contamination. Either can signal a major or stop an engine in far less time than engine wear. The oil change could take place AFTER the analysis...but the lag in reports are times well with my cruising style...so it works for me.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:45 AM   #38
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If the oil analysis on your charter boat comes back "good for continued use" why do you not believe your oil analysis report? I do understand that looking at that black oil is disconcerting but the oil analyses do not lie. However, I have sometimes changed the oil on my Chevy Duramax "just because" even though I really do not need to do that. I did that once at 900 hours even though the test showed no need to do so. That truck still starts and runs as the the I bought it 17 years ago and 292,000 miles.





Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
The 6CT 300 HP Cummins in my charter boat gets run hard. Short warm up followed by 5 minutes of slow operation, then up to 80% for hours. When I get on site, it's slow operation for ten minutes, then shut down. The return trip is the same. First 50 hours uses less than one quart in 50 hours. Somewhere between 50 and 100 hours oil consumption goes to one quart in 6 hours. Oil is black by 25 hours. IMO, the soot levels drive a lot of this. IMO, the soot is likely there regardless of oil type. So, I think it's more beneficial to change the oil in this application every 50 hours. Really don't feel that running 3 times as long with 3 times as much soot is a good idea. Oil analysis with each oil change says everything is good.

My Dodge pickup with a Cummins 6BT 220 HP runs on average at 25% of capacity. Engine has 469,000 miles (9,400 hours) on it and uses less than a quart of oil between oil changes (every 5,000 miles). Oil is amber at oil changes. While oil analysis is still good at 5,000 miles, I don't think extending oil changes to 15,000 miles to justify the use of synthetic makes sense. Feel that additional oil analysis would be required to make sure the additives remain at acceptable levels between oil changes. Also feel that less than 2 oil changes per year is less desirable than 4 to 6.

Ted
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:57 AM   #39
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When we bought Irish Lady, the PO used whatever 15W40 was on sale. 15W40 was not listed in the engine manual. I switched to Rotella T5 10W30 Semi-Synthetic for both engine and gen set. One oil covers both. The lab reports have steadily improved for 5 years. Our Perkins uses 1 qt per 100 hours consistently with over 5200 hours on the clock. Cost is about $15/gal on sale anywhere or from Amazon Prime.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:09 AM   #40
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An oil's viscosity rating, 15W-40 for example, only tells part of the story. The 15W number is the rating at 104 degrees. The 40 number is the rating at 212 degrees. At lower temperatures, synthetics do, in fact, pour more freely than do conventional oils despite the nominal SAE rating. It has to do with the molecular structure of the oil. Take a look at the YouTube video I attached. It was a demo performed by Shell Oil. It says all you need to know. Last I knew Shell sells synthetics and conventional so this demo holds no bias. There is a place for both types. Now don't go crazy when you see that the test was done at a temp of -40 degrees. There is a significant difference in pour characteristic at all cold temps. That is why synthetics are better at mitigating cold start-up wear at any temperature as they flow to the internals faster than synthetics. Now, the old wives tale is that 90% of engine wear occurs at start-up and warm-up. If one accepts that synthetics flow better than conventional at any temperature, one must conclude that any engine wil last longer using synthetics.


There will always be non-believers despite science and facts. There is no such thing as global warming/climate change, is there?






As posted above...
Oil for yacht engines – Cox Engineering
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