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Old 02-26-2021, 01:30 AM   #1
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Rebuild and Core deposits

Hi all,

Some may remember my prior post about swapping my port 6.354(M) engine for a reman after a chronic low-oil pressure issue and the finding of metal in the oil. For those who didn't see the post, I've reposted some more details later. The reman came from a small but 40+ year old legacy Perkins dealer (Neither S&W nor TAD, just one that happened to have the engine on the shelf ready to go). Here is the update.

Getting the seller to pick up my core was as much fun as getting them to send out the engine. After getting it, they made noises by phone about the crank sounding "dead" and sending it and the block out to be checked. Today they report in email:
-- "Main bore is out .002 inches. Cylinder block CAN NOT be line bored. Cylinder block is NOT USABLE."
-- "Bad - #4 Main Journal cracked".
-- Amount of core credit issued $0.00

To my knowledge of that engine, 0.002" off on the main bore is rebuildable by taking 0.001 off of the crown and 0.001 off of the block, and thereby not putting the idler gear out of tolerance. But, I'm not a rebuilder. And, it surprises me that the #4 journal was cracked, as #5 was the one where we found the debris, not #4. But, again, could be.

But, what about the brand new intake and exhaust manifolds (their originals, as I kept my old ones to match coolers), their newly rebuilt injector pump (I kept mine as they sent a different one than they were supposed to), the recently rebuilt injectors, the 110hrs since rebuilt head, the oil pump, oil pressure relief valve, water pump, and other minor salvage like oil pan, valve cover, fuel lines, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Well, they apparently intend to keep both my full $4000 core deposit -- and my full engine.

For the curious, nope, I don't intended to let them keep both my engine and my money. I've asked them again to provide a return on my core deposit for the usable parts -- or to let me know when I can pick up the whole engine. In the end, I feel confident I'll get a reasonable core refund, or the engine back and then, well, I guess I'd take it from there. This doesn't seem like it'll be a fun ride for anyone involved.

We had a great holiday on the boat, which was the reason I was on a tight schedule. But, well, if I'd waited for S&W to rebuild one of their cores, or send mine to them or TAD, I suspect I'd be $4000 richer right now (Well, $6000 if you count the $2000 for expedited shipping) and not still spending time on a broke engine that's already been hauled away. Patience pays. As the old saying goes, "Let my life be an example to you."


For those who missed my earlier post...

When I bought my boat, it was in the late-middle of a complete refit. Most of the "individual big-ticket items" had been done. But, there was a lot to do to finalize their installation and testing, and then all of the rest. The boat was bought at an appropriate price to take the inevitable lumps that come along with the risk of that situation.

Among the problems that I discovered as I went through the boat (not my mechanical inspector, who found it to be perfect, of course), was that the port engine had the wrong sender (single station vs double station), and other wiring problems so, in reality, the oil pressure wasn't dropping from 70psi to 30psi hot-to-cold, it was dropping from 45psi to 15psi hot-to-cold. I had assumed the relief valve was stuck partially open, or there was a leak between it and the pump or the pump and the pipe; or there was less likely an issue with the idler gear. On the outside, I thought the crankshaft might have been polished or turned and the wrong sized bearings installed during the rebuild.

These things required lifting the engine up a couple of feet to get underneath, so I couldn't do them myself. It took 6 months to find a good mechanic and then 1.5 years to get him out with the A-frame he needed to lift the engine up to get under the oil pan. The skilled trade worker shortage is real.

During that time I got heavily, heavily waked, the engine shut down, it was hard to initially restart, but then returned to perfectly normal operation, was an easy start, made full RPM under load, all cylinders fired, and ran clean and smooth. Unfortunately, metal was found in the oil. And, when the pan was finally dropped and metal was found embedded in the lower bearings and in the pan. I decided to replace or rebuild the engine. There wasn't much choice for trustable reliability.

I had a month until family was to celebrate Christmas on the boat, so it was game on. There was no time to have one rebuilt, the folks I know at S&W had cores, but no fully built 6.354 NAs on the shelf and TAD had neither engines nor cores. But, I found a reman on the shelf at a small legacy Perkins dealer in SoCal. I paid $8500 for it, plus $750 round-trip shipping, plus another $2k for it to be shipped 3-days, in time to get installed before Christmas. They also charged another $4,000 core deposit.

Well, they were rough to deal with from the moment the wire transfer went through. It didn't ship on time. They wouldn't provide a tracking number. And, when it arrived, it had a different injector pump than was expected, so I had to keep my old ones and old fuel lines. It was also bone-dry, without even an oil pump prime, with fresh builder's grease inside, and they were supposed to run it first. Despite that, once installed, it ran like a charm. I've never felt or heard a 6.354 run so smoothly. And, other than the need to tighten up an inspection plate and valve cover and things like that, it was perfect. I figured they were just a swamped family business -- all is well that ends well, right? Christmas was had on a running boat. That was all that mattered.

Wrestling with them to get my old engine returned to them for core credit was, well, as much fun as getting the new one shipped. Eventually it got shipped, they got it, and they told me that the crank "sounded dead" so they sent it out to be dye tested and that they sent the engine block out to have the main bore inspected.

Today they report in email:
-- "Main bore is out .002 inches. Cylinder block CAN NOT be line bored. Cylinder block is NOT USABLE."
-- "Bad - #4 Main Journal cracked".
-- Amount of core credit issued $0.00

To my knowledge of that engine, 0.002" off on the main bore is rebuildable by taking 0.001 off of the crown and 0.001 off of the block, and thereby not putting the idler gear out of tolerance. But, I'm not a rebuilder. And, it surprises me that the #4 journal was cracked, as #5 was the one where we found the debris, not #4. But, again, could be.

But, what about the brand new intake and exhaust manifolds (their originals, as I kept my old ones to match coolers), their newly rebuilt injector pump (I kept mine as theirs was the wrong model), the recently rebuilt injectors, the 110hrs since rebuilt head, the oil pump, oil pressure relief valve, water pump, and other minor salvage like oil pan, valve cover, fuel lines, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Well, they apparently intend to keep both my full $4000 core deposit -- and my full engine.

We had a great holiday on the boat. But, if I'd waited for S&W to rebuild one of their cores, or send them or TAD my old one to be rebuild and suffered the down time, I suspect I'd be $4000 richer right now (Well, $6000 if you count the $2000 for expedited shipping). Patience pays. As the old saying goes, "Let my life be an example to you."

For the curious, nope, I don't intended to let them keep both my engine and my money. I've asked them again to provide a return on my core deposit for the usable parts -- or to let me know when I can pick up the whole engine. In the end, I feel confident I'll get a reasonable core refund, or the engine back and then, well, I guess I'd take it from there. But, that end may be a long time in coming. Sigh.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:50 AM   #2
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Wont help this fellow , but anyone looking at replacement engines should remember John Deere farm shops have annual sales where rebuilt long or short blocks are sold without the need for a "core".
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:46 PM   #3
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The rebuilding company has to guarantee the core after they rebuild it. A cracked main journal is fixable - if it's the last engine in the world. Otherwise not worth it. If there was enough heat to crack a main journal, the crank could have cracks - the reason for dye. A cracked crank can be fixed, again if it's the last one in the world. I wouldn't rebuild a block with those fixes if I had to guarantee it. It could be the block was a little off from new and put some added pressure on the journals. British machining is getting better, but not great. If the basic block was made by Perkins, some of Perkins older engines required hand fitting some parts. I repaired a broken crank for a 1913 Cadillac. It was a huge job, prep, preheating, welding, post cooling, machining, magnafluxing, probably 100 hours. Owner woulda bought a new crank if he could.

I imagine you can have your core back if you pay to gather and ship the pieces.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:57 PM   #4
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Hey Lepke,

The crack they reported was in the crank. The main bore wasn't cracked, but 0.002" from true.

Even if I spot them that...nothing addresses the core value of 6 injectors and an injector pump they themselves rebuilt and remains unused (they sent a mechanical vs hydraulic, so I kept mine), the brand new manifolds, the head, the cast aluminum oil pan, etc.

We'll find out if they'll give me my engine back....i just asked for it.

They don't get to keep my core money and my core, both. S&W is an hour away. I bet they'll take it and give me something more than $0 for the good parts.

$0 is a crazy number.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:28 PM   #5
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Sounds like they figure they've already got your $4000.00 core charge and they're just waiting to see how bad you want to fight for it. Me? I'd drive there with trailer, and say load her up, or write me a check!
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:49 PM   #6
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And you might end up with a 1200 pound piece of metal that you can’t give away, maybe maybe not. You should consider that they may be telling you the truth. And then again they may not be telling you the truth. Don’t know about where you live but here I would be stuck with a hunk of metal and have nowhere to get rid of it except paying at the landfill. Not saying you are wrong, but what if they are right?
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:58 PM   #7
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Well, except I know an injector and pump rebuilder who will buy the injectors for $50 each and the pump for $800 (or thereabout). The pump is a brand new rebuild, so worth more (but he'd tear it down to warranty it).

So...that is $1100. And, I can get a couple hundred each for the brand new manifolds on eBay. Now I am at $1500.

And...I haven't touched everything else, yet.

If they'd come back with $2500, I'd have believed the block and the crank. If they'd come back with $2000, I'd have felt they were light, but rolled with it.

But, $0 shows their hand. I'll take my chances.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by gkesden View Post
Well, except I know an injector and pump rebuilder who will buy the injectors for $50 each and the pump for $800 (or thereabout). The pump is a brand new rebuild, so worth more (but he'd tear it down to warranty it).

So...that is $1100. And, I can get a couple hundred each for the brand new manifolds on eBay. Now I am at $1500.

And...I haven't touched everything else, yet.

If they'd come back with $2500, I'd have believed the block and the crank. If they'd come back with $2000, I'd have felt they were light, but rolled with it.

But, $0 shows their hand. I'll take my chances.
Well then it would make sense to get the old block back. Diesel mechanics are nowhere near me unfortunately. Hopefully I don’t have any serious mechanical issues...
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:39 AM   #9
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Have you tried disputing the charges with your credit card company?
I've never disputed anything that expensive or complicated but it may make them take noticed as it will be a hassle for them.
Just a thought.
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Old 03-01-2021, 02:47 PM   #10
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I don't know Perkins specifically, but what makes it special such that it can't be line bored for a .002" deviation? Seems like most blocks would be non-rebuildable if they can't be line bored.

Certainly a lot of other parts to sell and part out to make money off the core, $0 seems like a ridiculous number, no matter the condition of the crank/block.
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Old 03-02-2021, 09:07 AM   #11
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Certainly a lot of other parts to sell and part out to make money off the core, $0 seems like a ridiculous number, no matter the condition of the crank/block.
It was years ago that I sold a "junk" Perkins block to TAD in Virginia. It had been sitting in my barn for 10 years and had lots of parts stripped off of it ( I had bought it for spares).
They offered $500 (and they paid shipping from CT) as long as the cast aluminum oil pan was intact. It was, they inspected it and sent me a check.
They said the pan was a $1200 dollar item that was very scarce.
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Old 03-02-2021, 09:57 AM   #12
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Of course you have heard the expression "Don't throw good money after bad". While they are not trying to get any more money out of you (sort of). It seems you should cut your losses on aggravation, pain and suffering, wasted time, frustration, etc.

Write it off, forget about it and go boating. You actually got off pretty cheaply on the new engine, I would expect it to be almost twice that amount.

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Old 03-02-2021, 10:37 AM   #13
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Of course you have heard the expression "Don't throw good money after bad". While they are not trying to get any more money out of you (sort of). It seems you should cut your losses on aggravation, pain and suffering, wasted time, frustration, etc.

Write it off, forget about it and go boating. You actually got off pretty cheaply on the new engine, I would expect it to be almost twice that amount.

pete
Well, that is, to my way of thinking, approximately like knowing who broke into one's home and stole $4000.00 (more, considering the return shipping cost) and not following up with a proper, legitimate, lawful process.
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Old 03-02-2021, 10:45 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pete Meisinger View Post
Of course you have heard the expression "Don't throw good money after bad". While they are not trying to get any more money out of you (sort of). It seems you should cut your losses on aggravation, pain and suffering, wasted time, frustration, etc.

Write it off, forget about it and go boating. You actually got off pretty cheaply on the new engine, I would expect it to be almost twice that amount.

pete
How does this attitude not encourage even more bad behavior from the offender? As long as cheaters can expect their victims to turn the other cheek what is their incentive to change their business practices?

It seems to me that as a community we ALL have an obligation to self-police our community and naming and shaming is just the very beginning. We, as individuals, also have an obligation and even a duty as citizens to not tolerate unethical behavior and to take whatever legal actions that are available to both be made whole and to financially punish the cheaters and liars that attempt prey upon us.
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Old 03-02-2021, 10:49 AM   #15
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Have you tried disputing the charges with your credit card company?
I've never disputed anything that expensive or complicated but it may make them take noticed as it will be a hassle for them.
Just a thought.


OP stated: "Well, they were rough to deal with from the moment the wire transfer went through."


Vendor required the OP to wire the funds . . . which is what a lot of unscrupulous vendors try to require . . . .
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Old 03-02-2021, 10:52 AM   #16
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And you might end up with a 1200 pound piece of metal that you can’t give away, maybe maybe not. You should consider that they may be telling you the truth. And then again they may not be telling you the truth. Don’t know about where you live but here I would be stuck with a hunk of metal and have nowhere to get rid of it except paying at the landfill. Not saying you are wrong, but what if they are right?

As the OP stated, even if the block and crank are un-salvageable, it's still scrap metal that can be sold, and the injectors, pump, manifolds, etc, certainly still have considerable value . . . .and if the manifolds and pump was originally provided by the rebuild company, and now have zero value, I guess that tells you how little faith they have in their own rebuild quality.
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Old 03-02-2021, 11:41 AM   #17
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Yup. As it turns out, they wouldn't take payment by check or credit card. Wire transfer only.

This is a ~40 year old legacy dealer. Apparently the father ran the business very well for decades, turned it over to the kids, and it has had trouble since. He, reportedly subsequently semi-unretired to help pull it back together, and now does just the rebuilds and some in-shop work. But, the kids run the rest of the show.

I wouldn't have wired money, but I know folks who are familiar with the situation there and they assured me he hasn't built a bad engine in decades of doing it and has pride in his work. I was told the kids would be rough to deal with on the business side, and they were, and I expected some trouble at the back end. But, didn't expect this much trouble.

I called S&W and, as always, they were fantastic. They offered to take care of everything for me. I just need the other dealer to release the engine for pickup. Unfortunately, they have not yet answered the queries about making those arrangements :-(
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:45 PM   #18
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They’re probably going to say they have labor investment in your old block that they want to be paid for. My guess $4000 worth.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:51 PM   #19
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They’re probably going to say they have labor investment in your old block that they want to be paid for. My guess $4000 worth.
Well, that'll be one for the magistrate. I gave them a bunch of outs. At a certain point, they need to take one of them.
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Old 03-02-2021, 04:38 PM   #20
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You're in FL, they are in CA. They know you are not going to spend $20K to litigate. Chalk this one up to experience and enjoy the new engine.
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