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Old 04-02-2019, 04:50 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Riverguy View Post
.

My main point is that everyone who is storing more fuel than they are burning in a month (and I think that's all of us at some point) needs to add a biocide agent, because there WILL be water in that fuel, and the bugs WILL find it.

.
That has not been our experience

Our boat had 1/2 tanks of discoloured ten year old diesel in her when we got her.
Previous owner did not use biocide.
Crud sumps with drain taps showed no water or googlies.
Several months after we got her, having stirred the tanks up we changed the old filters and they were clean.

2 years later filters are still clean, crud sump still runs clean, zero biocide has been used.
We still store more fuel than we burn in a year, let alone 1 month.
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Old 04-02-2019, 04:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Bollocks.
Our boat had 1/2 tanks of discoloured ten year old diesel in her when we got her.
Previous owner did not use biocide.
Crud sumps with drain taps showed no water or googlies.
Several months after we got her, stirred the tanks up we changed the old filters and they were clean.

3 years later filters are still clean, crud sump still runs clean, zero biocide has been used.
We still store more fuel than we burn in a year, let alone 1 month.
In comparison to boats in Europe, your appears to be the exception. I'm astonished.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:00 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by OldDan1943 View Post
I read somewhere, some fuel tanks have a small metallic bowl on the bottom with a small drain valve.
We have a sump in each about 6 inch dia. and 8 inch deep.
Fuel pickup is a few inches above this.
We drain this sump every couple of months, fuel is always spotless.


Quote:
I can see the advantage for something like this. Of course, I can see the insurance companies objecting to this too
.
Why?
Its an obvious safety feature and could very well lessen claims.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
One has to wonder if and on what schedule you change your engine oil, or do you just wait for the engine to knock?

Ted
Ted,

If you follow condition-based maintenance, you change oil just before it's worn out, and you make that determination using oil analysis. If the engine is otherwise functioning properly, the "worn out" part is determined by its total base number or TBN, which is the oil additive package's ability to neutralize acids. It starts between 8 and 12, when it reaches 2 the oil should be changed. Most recreational users never reach this point, as they change seasonally, which is conservative and a safe approach.

Having conducted hundreds of oil analyses, and read many hundreds of reports, I'm convinced we throw away a lot of good oil. Still, it's better than the alternative, oil changes still aren't very costly if you do them yourself.

As far as fuel filters are concerned, I'll reiterate the value of a good vacuum gauge, it's the best means of determining filter condition, and it's an excellent troubleshooting tool as well, every primary filter should have one.

Fuel filters work best after they have captured some dirt, it increases the efficiency of the filter, enabling it to more effectively capture more dirt. Every time the filter is replaced, that process must start over again. Therefore, there's an argument to be made for not changing fuel filters unnecessarily. I tell my clients to watch the vacuum gauge (you must read it at cruising speed if it doesn't have a drag needle), if it stays in the green then change at the 2 year mark.

This article covers some of the details of primary filters Primary fuel filtration - Ocean Navigator - Ocean Voyager 2018
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:03 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by RickyD View Post
You may have algae growing in your day tank.
The biological growth found in fuel tanks is bacteria-based, rather than algae. Algae is a plant, it needs sunlight for photosynthesis, and there aint much of that inside a diesel tank;-) If there is you have bigger problems.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:08 AM   #86
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Several years ago I had a customer express concern, based on dockside lore, that a Racor filter element would deteriorate if left in a filter, in fuel, for too long. In my conversations with Racor while visiting their plant in Modesto (here's the article https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...Filtration.pdf ) I posed this question, they were understandably non-committal but off the record said they've known of filters that weren't changed for a decade and showed no deterioration. Can you imagine what would happen to the reputation of a filter manufacture if their filters deteriorate when exposed to fuel, regardless of the duration? .
Thanks for that.
The only reason we changed ours was the "dockside lore" story.
Good to know that we now have a lifetime supply of filters in the cupboard.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:53 AM   #87
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"We have a sump in each about 6 inch dia. and 8 inch deep.
Fuel pickup is a few inches above this.
We drain this sump every couple of months, fuel is always spotless."

You sir have an actual fuel tank !! Not just a box for fuel.

As you are assured of clean fuel , or the ability to clean contaminated fuel , any extra the boat cost would seem a fine investment.

I wonder how much boat builders save by installing fuel boxes , instead of genuine fuel tanks?
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:02 AM   #88
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When I built my rig I put the tank pickups all the way to the bottom, and cut several v-notches in the edge so it would not block flow.

I don't like the idea of pickups an inch or more above tank bottom. This allows crud and water to accumulate. Then it gets picked up when in rough conditions, exactly when you don't want a clogged filter.

Another tidbit: When servicing my filters (Racor 900 single, Cummins spin on secondary), I change the racor and fill the bowl. Then run the engine a bit to suck any crud disturbed from racor change into secondary. Then change secondary. Usually do this when doing an oil change, so engine start and stops are part of that process.

I don't know if the crud is algae, bacteria or asphaltenes. I just call it "crud". Seen it in all flavors. Black and not stringy, black and stringy, brown and stringy, brown and not stringy. Sources and explanations could be multiple, but it still is crud.

As others have posted that keeping water out of tanks is primary. Proper sumps are awesome, but very rare. If I would do anything different when setting up my tanks, it would be adding sumps. But the pickups at the bottom get me pretty close to having a real sump.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:14 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Just curious how the diesel fuel has changed (deteriorated) in 9 years? Maybe post a picture.

Ted
Will do. I'm in the midst of a renovation project and most of my shop gear is in storage, including the jar, I should be done in mid June, will photograph and post then.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
That has not been our experience

Our boat had 1/2 tanks of discoloured ten year old diesel in her when we got her.
Previous owner did not use biocide.
Crud sumps with drain taps showed no water or googlies.
Several months after we got her, having stirred the tanks up we changed the old filters and they were clean.

2 years later filters are still clean, crud sump still runs clean, zero biocide has been used.
We still store more fuel than we burn in a year, let alone 1 month.
Ditto that. We refuel annually, and sometimes some tanks may be 18 months old by the time the diesel is used. Never added biocide, never seen water, polishing filters would likely go for years, but I change them more or less annually. On launch after refit the fuel was 4 years old. No problem with that either, although the filters were a bit darker than they get now a year later.
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Old 04-02-2019, 03:41 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio View Post
In my conversations with Racor while visiting their plant in Modesto (here's the article https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...Filtration.pdf ) I posed this question, they were understandably non-committal but off the record said they've known of filters that weren't changed for a decade and showed no deterioration.

I think the concern, and the information that I got from Racor (and can’t find now) was that the aquablock treatment deteriorates over time, not the filters themselves. So if this is correct, the filters will continue to filter out particulates, but be less effective over time filtering out water.

I’m going to read that article. I appreciate your contributions.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:46 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio View Post
Ted,

If you follow condition-based maintenance, you change oil just before it's worn out, and you make that determination using oil analysis. If the engine is otherwise functioning properly, the "worn out" part is determined by its total base number or TBN, which is the oil additive package's ability to neutralize acids. It starts between 8 and 12, when it reaches 2 the oil should be changed. Most recreational users never reach this point, as they change seasonally, which is conservative and a safe approach.

Having conducted hundreds of oil analyses, and read many hundreds of reports, I'm convinced we throw away a lot of good oil. Still, it's better than the alternative, oil changes still aren't very costly if you do them yourself.

As far as fuel filters are concerned, I'll reiterate the value of a good vacuum gauge, it's the best means of determining filter condition, and it's an excellent troubleshooting tool as well, every primary filter should have one.

Fuel filters work best after they have captured some dirt, it increases the efficiency of the filter, enabling it to more effectively capture more dirt. Every time the filter is replaced, that process must start over again. Therefore, there's an argument to be made for not changing fuel filters unnecessarily. I tell my clients to watch the vacuum gauge (you must read it at cruising speed if it doesn't have a drag needle), if it stays in the green then change at the 2 year mark.

This article covers some of the details of primary filters Primary fuel filtration - Ocean Navigator - Ocean Voyager 2018
That's a good article Steve. Your comments on the reasons not to use a 2 micron filter as one's first line of defense are well made. I polish at 30 microns for the reasons you mention, transfer to the day tank through a separate 10 micron filter, which is then filtered at 2 microns before it ever sees the OEM filter. In other words, I go for overkill with the Racor 1000s, then kill that.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:56 PM   #93
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Did the OP ever come back and state the micron size of the pictured Racors?
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:00 PM   #94
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In comparison to boats in Europe, your appears to be the exception. I'm astonished.
Astonished indeed, but there are some low humidity climates where the ambient temperature rarely crosses the dewpoint. In this (rare) case, fuel will stay relatively dry and bugs won't find enough water to breed and grow. That said, a good diesel biocide costs next to nothing, so why run the risk?
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:46 PM   #95
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Astonished indeed, but there are some low humidity climates where the ambient temperature rarely crosses the dewpoint. In this (rare) case, fuel will stay relatively dry and bugs won't find enough water to breed and grow. That said, a good diesel biocide costs next to nothing, so why run the risk?
We live in a semi tropical climate
Temps in summer often in the +90f
Humidity averages around 70%
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:56 PM   #96
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We live in a semi tropical climate
Temps in summer often in the +90f
Humidity averages around 70%
And we live in the polar opposite climate, where condensation is a fact of life. I guess you and I are both astonishing. Well us, and the 90% of other posters who who never see the dreaded moisture in the tank that some seem plauged with.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:09 PM   #97
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I agree

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Originally Posted by DDW View Post
This is often proposed in theory and seldom tested. But Maine Sail (CMS) has tested it. It does not happen, at least in his tests.
I have always thought this was bs. Why doesn't it happen on cars? My boat goes through several seasons to include the Bahamas in winter and I have never seen a drop of water in three system.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:24 PM   #98
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I have always thought this was bs. Why doesn't it happen on cars? My boat goes through several seasons to include the Bahamas in winter and I have never seen a drop of water in three system.
You must be astonishing as well.
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Old 04-03-2019, 06:43 AM   #99
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"Proper sumps are awesome, but very rare. If I would do anything different when setting up my tanks, it would be adding sumps. But the pickups at the bottom get me pretty close to having a real sump. "


One common solution if there is not room for a proper sump is a plate with holes in the tank about an inch off the bottom with the pickup above.

Below the plate is drained with a valve , we insert a plug in the valve as cheap insurance.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:13 AM   #100
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Very interesting and educational thread. Thanks guys...one question I have...does the Aquabloc deteriorate if not opened or used? I have half a dozen unused Racor 500 filters, still in the sealed plastic wrap, that are 4 years old or so. Sitting in a bin in the aft cabin. Throw away or use?
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