Oxe diesel outboards

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I am a fan on new technology, but it also has to prove itself "Long Term" in the right application. Of course, the military does not really care about that anyway. Just look at the condition of the 10-12 year old RIB's and QSB 5.9's that are coming on the used engine market these days. All run hard and put away wet.Love the business though that comes our way because of it.

To me, the jury is still out on POD drives. All I see is very high maintenance costs vs. very low hour annual use. Plus, if used in heavier boats that run at hull speeds for long distances (called "cruising") , MPG seems dismal at best compared to convention running gear w/ big props.


Tony

I am never a first generation adopter. I want it proven. Show it to me in real use over a long trial period. Whether it's computer technology, engines or boat designs, I feel the same. Someone else can work through the initial problems. Show me some diesel outboards on utility boats that I can see and touch, getting heavy use for the last two years and then I might listen.

Now, as to pods, I don't personally want them but don't share your "jury still out". Pods are a long established technology. They've been in the commercial market for decades and now IPS and Zeus have been around in the recreational market for a long time. Some builders I respect greatly, such as Delta Powerboats, use them very successfully.

As to heavier boats that run at hull speeds for long periods of time (called "slow cruising"), that is clearly not the pod market and not the appropriate application. I'm personally not aware of much of that being done.

Then as to pods in the lighter recreational boat market, I think much of what I've seen is pods being sold to inexperienced boaters and, therefore, the maintenance issues being greatly increased. I see a lot of pods damaged but with the lack of experience by the operator they would have damaged any type of propulsion system. Pods are going to have worse records when sold to first time boaters and cruisers. Now, I think many of their sales are strictly gimmick sales. Joysticks have sold more pods than anything else, because docking fears prevail. The problem is there is more to boating than docking, much more, plus joysticks are available now for any type propulsion system.

Our most recent purchased boat offered pods or conventional. The first negative then I saw toward the pods was that the boat wasn't really designed for them. The best pod applications are boats build for them from the ground up. Now, we intended to use this boat on the loop and I just saw the risk of damage to the pods greater (draft slightly greater) plus the available expertise along the route to quickly make repairs or replace pods. In terms of performance, the pods had a slight speed advantage, but we upgraded engines to mostly offset that. At cruising speed (not hull speed but 20-26 knots) the pods were far more efficient. That just didn't excite me. Then also, the pods offer the potential of space savings and added space for other things, but in this boat, that was not realized. In fact, they came with a smaller fuel capacity and no greater space benefit, since the engine room dimensions were already fixed. As to your findings on fuel, even at 10 knots and less, the pods on this boat used less fuel than the conventional drives. Now, they didn't match a small diesel with big props but that's not the nature of the boat or their intended use.

So, I don't think the verdict on pods is still out. I think they are what they are and proven over time. They are not the failures some predicted, but they haven't taken over the world as others predicted. A huge limiting factor in market share has been that Zeus is limited by Cummins engine sizes and, therefore, has to keep adding engines to compete in even the 60' range. IPS goes further but with Sea Ray the largest builder of boats in that range, and their Zeus marriage, it has limited pods in the Express boat and day cruiser market. I think Zeus for Brunswick was strictly a defensive measure as competitors were offering IPS. I know people with vast amounts of experience with pods on many different boats who are totally sold on them. I also know novice boaters who have been through several pods on their two year old boat. Then I know some builders who were early into the pod world and are IPS all the way.

One thing that has impacted pods negatively in market share is that as they were gaining popularity and perhaps had potential in many cases in lieu of inboard outboards and not just inboards, the I/O market was shrinking while the outboard market was growing. Small SF's and CC's were initially targeted as pod applications. Well, small SF's have shrunk as to their size of the market and the growing share has gone to outboard powered CC's increasing in size.
 
I think three things account for pod market share particularly IPS success. Builders and architects like them for installation and design purposes. Joy stick control and precise docking really appeals to many boaters. Volvo's advertising sold the public the idea of fuel economy without pointing out it is only so at certain higher speeds on certain boats,not slower cruising boats or even SD at moderate speeds.
 
My late model Honda and Jettas had/have timing chains.
Interestingly my present 5 cyl 13 Jetta has the timing chain on the flywheel end of the engine.
Don't know for sure but I think timing belts are a thing of the past.

Baltic Sea,
The drive systen in the above picture would not have counter rotating props.
The cog belts are more efficient than the old deep V belts and require far less tension.


Eric,
The picture from Baltic is 2 engines onto 1 shaft; ergo, only 1 prop.
Likely has controllable pitch for reverse

Ted
 
Mercury has a pretty interesting diesel fueled outboard that is spark ignited. Shouldn't need the same high compression as a tradition diesel. This would aid in bringing the weight down.
 
Mercury has a pretty interesting diesel fueled outboard that is spark ignited. Shouldn't need the same high compression as a tradition diesel. This would aid in bringing the weight down.



Why do I have cold sweats whenever the word Mercury is mentioned :ermm:
 
Abel Tasman Sea Shuttle working in the Abel Tasman National Park uses belt drives on some of their larger aluminum catamaran passenger ferries.
Basically they take passengers around the coastline of the park and drop them off on SHALLOW sandy beaches by beaching the boat.

Their problem was to be able to get their ferries close enough to shore to allow the passenger to disembark but not have the propellers digging up the sand.

They designed a belt drive system to be able to lift the props partially out of the water for shallow water operation.

Actually they designed and built two different types of drives,
As this was several years ago there is a chance that some of what I put into this comment might pertain to one or the other type of drive as to length of boat etc but will get this information into the thread as to the viability of a belt drive system.

I rode on both of these taxis, one out and one back several years ago

Belt drive
25 meter aluminum catamaran, 150 passenger, twin Scania 485kw/600 hp diesels
The motors were above the prop shafts in an engine compartment that hinges just ahead of the front of the engines. When coming to shore the engine compartments were pivoted UP by hydraulic rams lifting the props partially out of the water.Ie the motor and props lifted up

I spoke to the captain about this unique drive and he put in a dvd on the in cabin screen that showed the entire build process of the boat and drive system.

Again from memory, I would expect that the ferry cruised at maybe 20 knots and the captain said that they had several thousands of hours on a set of Kevlar belts

Side pivot taxi
Not sure on the size of this boat ( maybe 15 meters) the engines were fixed but their outdrives which were designed by the owners, actually rotated outward on the axis of the input shaft to lift the props partially clear of the water

Two rather unique drives

I am still trying to get more info on these 2 systems,...and a copy of that DVD that's mentioned.
 
I am never a first generation adopter. I want it proven. Show it to me in real use over a long trial period. Whether it's computer technology, engines or boat designs, I feel the same. Someone else can work through the initial problems. Show me some diesel outboards on utility boats that I can see and touch, getting heavy use for the last two years and then I might listen.

Now, as to pods, I don't personally want them but don't share your "jury still out". Pods are a long established technology. They've been in the commercial market for decades and now IPS and Zeus have been around in the recreational market for a long time. Some builders I respect greatly, such as Delta Powerboats, use them very successfully.

As to heavier boats that run at hull speeds for long periods of time (called "slow cruising"), that is clearly not the pod market and not the appropriate application. I'm personally not aware of much of that being done.

Then as to pods in the lighter recreational boat market, I think much of what I've seen is pods being sold to inexperienced boaters and, therefore, the maintenance issues being greatly increased. I see a lot of pods damaged but with the lack of experience by the operator they would have damaged any type of propulsion system. Pods are going to have worse records when sold to first time boaters and cruisers. Now, I think many of their sales are strictly gimmick sales. Joysticks have sold more pods than anything else, because docking fears prevail. The problem is there is more to boating than docking, much more, plus joysticks are available now for any type propulsion system.

Our most recent purchased boat offered pods or conventional. The first negative then I saw toward the pods was that the boat wasn't really designed for them. The best pod applications are boats build for them from the ground up. Now, we intended to use this boat on the loop and I just saw the risk of damage to the pods greater (draft slightly greater) plus the available expertise along the route to quickly make repairs or replace pods. In terms of performance, the pods had a slight speed advantage, but we upgraded engines to mostly offset that. At cruising speed (not hull speed but 20-26 knots) the pods were far more efficient. That just didn't excite me. Then also, the pods offer the potential of space savings and added space for other things, but in this boat, that was not realized. In fact, they came with a smaller fuel capacity and no greater space benefit, since the engine room dimensions were already fixed. As to your findings on fuel, even at 10 knots and less, the pods on this boat used less fuel than the conventional drives. Now, they didn't match a small diesel with big props but that's not the nature of the boat or their intended use.

So, I don't think the verdict on pods is still out. I think they are what they are and proven over time. They are not the failures some predicted, but they haven't taken over the world as others predicted. A huge limiting factor in market share has been that Zeus is limited by Cummins engine sizes and, therefore, has to keep adding engines to compete in even the 60' range. IPS goes further but with Sea Ray the largest builder of boats in that range, and their Zeus marriage, it has limited pods in the Express boat and day cruiser market. I think Zeus for Brunswick was strictly a defensive measure as competitors were offering IPS. I know people with vast amounts of experience with pods on many different boats who are totally sold on them. I also know novice boaters who have been through several pods on their two year old boat. Then I know some builders who were early into the pod world and are IPS all the way.

One thing that has impacted pods negatively in market share is that as they were gaining popularity and perhaps had potential in many cases in lieu of inboard outboards and not just inboards, the I/O market was shrinking while the outboard market was growing. Small SF's and CC's were initially targeted as pod applications. Well, small SF's have shrunk as to their size of the market and the growing share has gone to outboard powered CC's increasing in size.


Volvo IPS has failed in many situations when a boat ride on the rocks. Volvo has designed the IPS released "cut" and the water will not leak in hard. the truth was the entire unit is torn loose and makes a big hole in the bottom of the vessel sink quickly. of course, been reasons other than a Volvo.

A lot of it was necessary to also careless and sloppy installation Jeanneau laminating

Official accident investigation Jeanneau prestige and ips. stern was torn from the bottom part, the ips will not cut. browse through a lot of pictures and at the end of starting on page 57 in English, too.


⭐JEANNEAU PRESTIGE 42S, A (FIN), uppoaminen Inkoon edustalla
 
It's a great idea but I foresee two problems.
To meet Euro 5/6 emissions the engine must be electronically controlled, sea water and engine electronics do not make great bedfellows.
The Opel base engine is not the most durable engine in terms of camshaft reliability.
The European Union has pushed unrealistic rules for engineers to meet on engine emissions and the only way to achieve it is now by electronics. The tendency for small highly tuned engines to control emissions and save weight has reach such a stage (VW emissions scandal) that the thinking is now swinging back to big block motors.


Meanwhile wood fired (eco )home/factory heating and China commissioning a coal fired power station every day produces more pollution.
 
Volvo IPS has failed in many situations when a boat ride on the rocks. Volvo has designed the IPS released "cut" and the water will not leak in hard. the truth was the entire unit is torn loose and makes a big hole in the bottom of the vessel sink quickly. of course, been reasons other than a Volvo.

A lot of it was necessary to also careless and sloppy installation Jeanneau laminating

Official accident investigation Jeanneau prestige and ips. stern was torn from the bottom part, the ips will not cut. browse through a lot of pictures and at the end of starting on page 57 in English, too.

And the point is? That if you run your boat on the rocks, you're going to have a lot of damage? That's not exactly limited to one form of propulsion. Now, overzealous sales people may be representing it to magically overcome, but I certainly didn't represent pods in that way in my post. Jeanneau and Prestige are also at the bottom end of the price and quality scale and attract a lot of first time boaters.
 
Sayswho.
Just to set the record straight Otto Diesel was a refrigeration engineer and then went on to design the first experimental diesels which ran with a 'hot bulb' to ignite atomized coal dust, he quickly found that the engine worked far better on vegetable oils.
The first commercial diesels were fitted by a German truck maker called Bussing, who were granted the right to fix the word Diesel on their truck grilles.
Bussing was taken over by M.A.N Machinenfabrik Augsburg Nurnberg who carried on the practice of fitting a small chrome badge with the words Diesel.
M.A.N trucks now form part of the Volkswagen empire.

Otto Diesel was lost overboard late at night on a cross channel ferry from France to England to exhibit his Diesel engine at the London trade fair.


Incidentally the Volvo IPS contra rotating propellers was invented to drive the torpedo propellers by a foreman at the Royal Arms factory in Enfield, England.
Nothing new, just re inventing the longest serving invention, the wheel, which incidentally was a Phoenician invention.
Apologies for being a smart **ss.
 
Last edited:
Sayswho.
Just to set the record straight Otto Diesel was a refrigeration engineer and then went on to design the first experimental diesels which ran with a 'hot bulb' to ignite atomized coal dust, he quickly found that the engine worked far better on vegetable oils.
The first commercial diesels were fitted by a German truck maker called Bussing, who were granted the right to fix the word Diesel on their truck grilles.
Bussing was taken over by M.A.N Machinenfabrik Augsburg Nurnberg who carried on the practice of fitting a small chrome badge with the words Diesel.
M.A.N trucks now form part of the Volkswagen empire.

Otto Diesel was lost overboard late at night on a cross channel ferry from France to England to exhibit his Diesel engine at the London trade fair.


Incidentally the Volvo IPS contra rotating propellers was invented to drive the torpedo propellers by a foreman at the Royal Arms factory in Enfield, England.
Nothing new, just re inventing the longest serving invention, the wheel, which incidentally was a Phoenician invention.
Apologies for being a smart **ss.

Excuse me for offering a correction, but I believe you'll find that the inventor of the diesel engine was a German (though born in Paris) mechanical engineer named Rudolf Christian Karl Diesel (1858-1913).
 
I like my gearbox mounted out of the water.
 
Bliss boat,
Correction accepted, It was from memory, which is clearly failing.
 
I beg your pardon and correct myself. (I only had two snifters of brandy)
It was of course Rudolph Diesel, and (from my failing memory) I believe it was a man called Otto who invented the two stroke cycle engine.
I should've checked Wikipedia before replying.
 
Otto cycle is typically spark ignition, two or four stroke. In engineer terms, constant volume addition of heat.

Diesel cycle is typically compression ignition, two or four stroke, constant pressure addition of heat. The fuel is injected over several degrees of crank rotation, the goal being to raise pressure and keep it roughly constant as fuel goes in and piston descends. Burn all the fuel at once like a gasser and things break.

In both cases, constant volume or constant pressure are rough approximations.
 
For the nerdy, techie guys here, let me say a few words about diesel vs gasoline thermodynamics and the efficiencies that result.

As noted above, a gasoline engine uses a different thermodynamic cycle than a diesel, the Otto cycle. I won't go into the specific thermodynamics (and I am not sure I can remember them 50 years later) but the Otto cycle is fundamentally less efficient due the laws of thermodynamics than the diesel cycle.

Also gasoline engines are throttled at part load. That also causes a thermodynamic inefficiency compared to diesels, which are never throttled.

An finally the foregoing "efficiency" means amount of energy in the fuel converted to work at the output shaft. But gasoline has about 15% less energy per gallon as gasoline, simply because a gallon of gasoline weighs about 6 lbs and a gallon of diesel weighs about 7 lbs and both have the same energy content per pound. So the difference is approxmately 7 vs 6.

So how does all of the above add up in real world terms. The following is a guess (because I have since long forgotten how to do the math):

15 percent due to energy density
25 percent due to wot thermodynamic differences
10 percent due to throttling at part load

Overall a diesel at part load makes about 18 hp per gph and a gasser makes about 12. So 18/12 = 50% better efficiency.

The diesel spark ignition engine discussed above and on other threads only benefits from the energy density factor, so it probably is only 15% better than a straight gasoline engine.

YMMV.

David
 
A predominant factor in the thermal efficiency calcs of both cycles is compression ratio. Higher CR, better efficiency. But with higher CR comes more thermal and mechanical stresses so they do not go too high. And on Otto, you run into detonation and preignition problems.

The big downside on Otto is that at part load the intake is throttled. There are pumping losses with throttling, but those turn out to be rather small. The biggest effect is that throttling reduces effective CR. Since there is a partial vacuum in the cylinder, compression does not start until piston has risen considerably. 9:1 at full power, 4.5:1 at light load. No such thing on the diesel.

We've gotten way off track here, but I don't feel like cleaning the shop.
 
uniform elongation of Silent Chain

The problem with any chain, including the above, is that each pin-to-link interface wears. Not much wear, but it changes the pitch slightly. And now you have sliding contact on the link to wheel interface. And add up all the pin to link wear and you get a considerable change in total length, aka "stretch". This forces the need of a tensioner mechanism that can gradually compensate fro the stretch.

I have no problem using chains in certain apps, but do have a problem with the tensioners presently in use. Little plastic guides of doubtful chemical stability, springs, hydraulic pistons, little springs and clips.

Belts need some sort of tensioner in most apps, mostly due to thermal expansion, but at least pitch remains much more constant than on a chain. The wear and thermal expansion dimensional changes less than chains. And quieter.

Neither is a silver bullet for all apps.

On the OXE I am real curious how the are guiding the outer surface of the belt as it courses down into the lower unit. Seems they would need some guides or rollers to squeeze the belt together to get a slim profile above the "torpedo" shaft housing. Can't yet imagine an easy way to do that.

Meantime I was doing a little house cleaning on one of my storage disc and ran across this little diagram that had existed in a PDF form, but I managed to convert to a jpg image.
112240d1487742631-belt-drive-silent-chain-uniform-elongation.jpg
 
"The US miltary's single fuel requirement is sure driving some interesting engine developments."

The one that will most likely end up on cars and boats is the use of JP5 (kerosene) with very high pressure direct injection , and a spark (not compression ) for ignition. We would use diesel.

This gets the advantage of dense fuel and no requirement for the extra engine weight needed for compression ignition.

With air power & computer operating intake, exhaust and injectors , no camshaft or rockers are used.

A boat or heavy duty engine can use different computer timing to hold the exhaust longer for efficiency .

Flick a switch to change the computer and the power profile can be changed.

Or for purists ( and backwater areas) the engine can be mechanical, no electric or computer needed.

Compliments of DARPA , the only gov agency that is worth its expense.
 
Last edited:
Meantime I was doing a little house cleaning on one of my storage disc and ran across this little diagram that had existed in a PDF form, but I managed to convert to a jpg image.
112240d1487742631-belt-drive-silent-chain-uniform-elongation.jpg

It might wear uniformly, and not wear as much, but they certainly wear at the pin joints. They flat out admitted such. And that changes pitch which then wears the sprockets.

Don't get me wrong, there are apps where chains work fine, but wear and stretch remain an issue.

Take the cam drive chain off a GM v-block engine and it is obvious that wear occurs. Sloppy as heck, even with all steel sprockets.
 
It might wear uniformly, and not wear as much, but they certainly wear at the pin joints. They flat out admitted such. And that changes pitch which then wears the sprockets.

Don't get me wrong, there are apps where chains work fine, but wear and stretch remain an issue.

Take the cam drive chain off a GM v-block engine and it is obvious that wear occurs. Sloppy as heck, even with all steel sprockets.

I suspect that the serpentine configuration of those camshaft chains are contributing a lot to the extra wear you are speaking of. Without proper tension any 'belt/chain' drive is going to experience extra wear.

The more direct configuration of this marine chain drive I posted here is likely going to see minimal wear....

55599d1301502393-belt-drive-chaindrive2.jpg


101311d1435761420-belt-drive-pyi-chain-drive-unit.jpg




BTW, the Oldsmobile Tornado utilized such a silent chain link between their transverse mounted engine and transmission. It lasted over 100,000 miles from the reports I've seen
 
Olds configuration

BTW, the Oldsmobile Tornado utilized such a silent chain link between their transverse mounted engine and transmission. It lasted over 100,000 miles from the reports I've seen

Just found this...
Out in Front: The Front-Wheel-Drive Oldsmobile Toronado, Part 1 - Page 2 of 5 - Ate Up With Motor

1966_Oldsmobile_Toronado_UPP_X48974-0314_c2010-GMMA.jpg


1966_Oldsmobile_Toronado_UPP-chain-drive_X50646-0019_c2010-GMMA.jpg



Brakes aside, the Toronado was a remarkable piece of engineering. No less an authority than Alec Issigonis, BMC technical director and designer of the Mini, had declared that front-wheel drive was impractical with engines over 2 liters (122 cu. in.), but the Toronado coped admirably with 6,964 cc (425 cu. in.), 385 gross horsepower (287 kW), and 475 lb-ft (644 N-m) of torque. For all its novelty, the Unitized Power Package also proved to be remarkably reliable. The production line — established in a separate building from other Oldsmobiles — had its issues early on, but there were few problems with the drivetrain in service.
 
Last edited:
Alfa Romeo twin cam engines with chain camshaft drives had an adjustment to take up the slack as the chain wore/stretched. Unless done carefully all the valve stems could be bent. Do not ask how I know.
 
Alfa Romeo twin cam engines with chain camshaft drives had an adjustment to take up the slack as the chain wore/stretched. Unless done carefully all the valve stems could be bent. Do not ask how I know.
Those are totally different types of chains,...they are roller bearing chains.

alfagtv0823cams.jpg
 
I suspect that the serpentine configuration of those camshaft chains are contributing a lot to the extra wear you are speaking of. Without proper tension any 'belt/chain' drive is going to experience extra wear.

The more direct configuration of this marine chain drive I posted here is likely going to see minimal wear....

55599d1301502393-belt-drive-chaindrive2.jpg


101311d1435761420-belt-drive-pyi-chain-drive-unit.jpg




BTW, the Oldsmobile Tornado utilized such a silent chain link between their transverse mounted engine and transmission. It lasted over 100,000 miles from the reports I've seen

Very interesting product which should be much more reliable than the standard z-drive out drive configuration with all its drawbacks. I'm wondering why it hasn't become more popular : maybe cost and the limited HP rating?

Pyi doesn't list it on their site; any idea of a ball park price?
 
Very interesting product which should be much more reliable than the standard z-drive out drive configuration with all its drawbacks. I'm wondering why it hasn't become more popular : maybe cost and the limited HP rating?

Pyi doesn't list it on their site; any idea of a ball park price?
It was fairly expensive. There were 2 different sizes for two HP ranges. They only built them for a very short time, then stopped,...I don't know all the reasons why. (maybe legal concerns, see below).

I did hear of one installation on a big custom cat (French I believe) where the outdrive leg was hooked up directly to the engine without any intermediate shock absorption driveshafting, and of course it vibrated itself to dead. Then the builder/owner sought warranty on the item, when in reality it was an installation error.

As you said I think the concept has a lot of pluses over a Z-drive.

I've even drawn up a little idea for a duo-prop version...
Tennant Hull V ChainDrive

Thought about having the metal housings made up over in Thailand at one company I know of, then putting America bearings, seals, and drive chain(s) in them.
 
Only thing for sure is I stay away from car engines with cam driving belts.

Our Honda CRV has a chain , so every few years it does not need a new belt.
 
Back
Top Bottom