Our "new" Gardner engine on the dynamometer

[Andy G]

Can't say I had ever heard that term being applied before - black swan event - as in rare - there's tens of thousands here.


A mathematician named Taleb coined the term about 15 years ago,he explained it this way "organisations and individuals should be robust enough to cope with Black Swan events, consequential but unexpected moments in history."

For an indigenous Australian this would have been known as a White Swan event, a rare bird, not existing in Australia, prior to some European imports in the nineteenth century.

Excuse the hijack.

 

[sunchaser]

I know we can still get new tier 2
350hp NTA855 Cummins here, I imagine there are other breeds doing similar.

https://www.filterdiscounters.com.au/cummins-nta855-m350-marine-engine-brand-new/

I note the referenced engine is made in China under license from Cummins. Is this a buyer beware situation when the new Australian off road emissions standards and compliance regulations are imposed?

 

[Arc]

For those who are afraid of electric [ modern ] engines. There are a lot of myths about the constant failure of the electronic side. They are few and far between. Possibly equal to mechanical failure of old school. If you are a distant traveler you can buy EVERY electrical component for a Cummins Engine for about $15,000.00 that includes harness, starter, ecu, sensors, fuel pumps hp pump, injectors. Often electronic engines are easier to work on. I can swap out an injection pump in about 2 hours and there is no critical timing to deal with. While you own it , it burns cleaner, more efficient, less susceptible to temperature change, more engine protection, better engine information and interfacing.

 

[Mako]

Does that $15k also include the diagnostic computer?

 

[Arc]

Cummins software is about 1,500.00 . It is not needed for typical repairs. The ecu will code and you can easily look it up. The software comes in to play when you have a let’s call it a miss or rough run situation. Those problems while annoying will not get you stuck.

 

[dannc]

I have read of one newer, high end sail boat that had an engine failure near Greenland. They had to be towed into port if I remember correctly. The owner had to fly in a mechanic to find and fix the problem which was electrical.

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

I note the referenced engine is made in China under license from Cummins. Is this a buyer beware situation when the new Australian off road emissions standards and compliance regulations are imposed?

Yes, no, maybe and if.


https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environme...t/evaluation-non-road-diesel-engine-emissions

 

[Whodgins]

If I recall correctly, this will the the THIRD iteration of the engine?!? The first was mishandled during break-in by the hired captain, but I thought Mike's people came out and did the rebuild? What happened to that one? I'm starting to get nervous about ours!
Really REALLY sorry to hear about your woes, especially that it appears that the new engine will be installed in your absence. Please keep us appraised of the situation. Scot

Hi Scot. Sorry for this delayed response, things are a bit hectic on my end of late.

Your recollection is correct that this would count at the third iteration of our 6LXB and the cause of the first. I looked after the first and second rebuilds and now Michael and his great crew at Gardner Marine Diesel GMD have done the lastest and surely final build. Second rebuild ended up being needed due to the oil pressure gauge, new Gardner unit at the time, turned out to be faulty and reading about 20 PSI less than actual oil pressure. I’ll take full responsibility for that one taking so long to sort out and happening in the first place as in hindsight I should have had more than one oil pressure gauge on the engine to begin with even though they were all new gauges.

Not sure what oil pressure monitoring you have on your 8LXB but can definitely highly recommend that you have two or three independent pressure gauges or monitors just to be sure. On our 6LXB I now have four different ways I’m monitoring the engine’s oil pressure:
• two mechanical dial gauges, both liquid filled to dampen needle readings and mounted on different sources of oil pressure just after the oil filter
• one low pressure switch that triggers an audible and visual alarm. I also use this to turn the engine hour meter on/off
• one electrically isolated sensor that puts the oil pressure on our N2K Maretron network so we can view this on any monitor, phone, tablet, etc. anywhere on the boat.
Our Maretron N2KView software allows us to have both any type of display of oil pressure from digits to needles, as well coloured warning lights, audible alarms, etc.

As for concerns about your Gardner engine, I don’t think you need to have any, at least not due to our experiences. As with most things I guess, each of the failures on our engine were primarily due to human error and knowing LXB engines as well as intimately as I do now, I can tell you that I have more confidence in them than ever. With the new engine having been built by the Gardner “factory” at GMD and put through its paces on the dyno there we are totally confident that we will be enjoying the legendary reliability of Gardner LXB engines for decades more exploring the world by sea.

Our new 6LXB has made it as far as Athens now and I’m currently working with all the various authorities and companies to get it fully cleared into the EU and Greece and onto the next truck and ferry to get it over to where Möbius is on the island of Kalymnos. Once the engine is on the dock beside the boat I’ll start working with the Greek authorities to grant me a 10 day or 2 week extension to our Schengen visa so I can get back to Möbius and install the engine and get underway. I’ll do my best to keep you and others updated as things progress and you can find usually weekly updates over on our Mobius.World blog and we will try to update this thread as well.

- Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Holy smokes! I was wondering about the bad news that was coming on the next blog.

However, after seeing how well you two deal with everything else, I’m sure you will deal with this latest hiccup with aplomb. I look forward to reading about it.

Thanks for the kind words in all your comments here and on the blog. We will continue to do our best to keep you well entertained and informed so stay tuned for more!

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Christine, purely in retrospect/hindsight, if you were doing it over again do you think it would have been more practical to just install an in-production mechanical engine (Cummins China, Doosan Korea, etc.) versus all the effort on the legendary Gardner?

Hi Mako, we asked this question in the very beginning of designing this boat and more recently with our latest challenges with the engine. The answer then and now is that we continue to believe that our Gardner 6LXB is the Goldilocks engine for Möbius and our use case. Just keep in mind that I define this Goldilocks status as "Just Right; Just for Us" and it is important to keep that last part in mind.

In no way to I mean to imply that this is THE best engine for any other boat or captain. Nor do I mean to imply that engines from other reputable manufacturers such as Cummins, Cat, JD, Scania and others would not also be great choices. Getting an all mechanical engine from any of these is very difficult though and my concern with a modern electronic engine is the lack of ability to carry some new electronic parts such as the ECU onboard. We were informed by the likes of John Deere that if we needed to replace the ECU, they can only send us the new one after we return the old one because they apparently have to extract the logged data inside the ECU and install that into the new one before sending it out to us. For us and our use case, this was not something we felt we could go to sea with and is what led us to deciding to go with an all mechanical engine and ultimately choosing a Gardner.

Hope that helps answer this question that you and many others have asked or wondered about.

-Wayne

 

[twistedtree]

Wayne, with a new build boat with an engine that doesn't comply with current emissions standards, how does that restrict your movements, if at all? And how does it restrict where the boat can be registered?

 

[Whodgins]

I thought one big reason they went with the Gardner is because it has no electronics to go out. IIRC they plan on cruising the world and Wayne wanted something he could totally work on himself?

I suppose they could have gone with an old school non-electric Cat or Cummins, but I don’t think they get the economy or have the low rpm torque like the Gardner does? Plus, they are not nearly as sexy. [emoji57]

Thanks for the great summary of many of the key points that led us to choose to go with a Gardner 6LXB for our boat. In spite of and perhaps in part because of the challenges and experiences we have gone through with this engine choice we now more than ever believe that this is the just right, just for US choice.

The complete lack of electrics on an LXB is a big factor as you noted and goes a long way to enabling me to fix most anything that might go wrong by myself, in situ on the boat with the tools, machines and parts I carry.

I fully acknowledge many other comments that I may be making this lack of electrics and electronics on a marine engine a bigger issue than need be and that it is unlikely that we would have ever had an issue with these had we gone with a modern diesel engine. However given our preference and plans for extended world exploration, multi week/month voyages and our preference for the most remote spots we can find along the way, we felt that going with a completely non electric engine was a worthwhile option to go for. Heck, I even adapted the Gardner hand cranking option so I can even start the engine without any electrics!

-Wayne

 

[Mako]

Hand cranking option - great backup! For those who really venture to those remote places, with mechanical engines, perhaps carrying a spring starter and a bypass for the fuel shutdown solenoid would be prudent.

 

[Whodgins]

Agreed, of the non-electronic options, the Gardner is probably the most efficient. Even most of the modern electronic turbo stuff isn't any more efficient than a Gardner.



Honestly, I wouldn't be scared of electronics for an application like that, but I'd want to make sure I could (at a semi-reasonable cost) buy the computer tools and all of the documentation to go with the engine. That way it would become DIY-able (provided parts are available as needed, like any other engine). I wouldn't want any engine where I'd be stuck relying on outside techs because I couldn't get the tools to diagnose it myself.

Agree with all your points above including that I would not be "scared of electronics". We have owned and operated quite a few boats over our many years at sea and not had any serious or unresolvable problems with such engines. However, the points you noted at the end of your comment, did present some serious concerns when we were making our decision on the Goldilocks engine for our boat. In particular, your caveat that (provided parts are available as needed, like any other engine) which turned out to not be possible for at least the JD engine we had originally chosen and were about to order. We chased this all the way to JD HQ and they explained that there were a number of electronic parts, particularly the ECU which they were ONLY able to provide AFTER we sent them the old one and they could then send the new and updated part to us. Not a big deal when you have a JD dealer and shipping options near you, but it left us with the prospect that our boat could indeed be "dead in the water" in some remote location either in the middle of an ocean or in some of the many remote places we've been and plan to go. Probable? No. Possible? YES!

Just like you, we "... wouldn't want any engine where I'd be stuck relying on outside techs because I couldn't get the tools to diagnose it myself." We COULD perhaps find ways to deal with relying on outside techs and have done so in the past with remote dial ups, and we can and do have all the tools to diagnose and fix our engine, BUT we can't do this if we don't have the PARTS onboard and are then completely dependent upon shoreside help, shipping, etc. to get the parts required to move the boat.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Economy is marginally better, but cost to purchase is likely higher negating fuel saving.
But reliability, easy access to parts and service in remote parts of the world are more important in my eyes if venturing further afield.

Previous owner of ours looked at a 6lxb repower but she would have been running at near full noise for 8 knots whereas the 855 Cummins he chose is hardly ticking over.
Parts are plentiful online and here in days, cheap
And I feel confident I can get it worked on pretty much anywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I do love a Gardner and an 8lxb would have been a more suitable candidate for ours,G

Good points made, and we particularly share the top priority you have for ".. reliability, easy access to parts and service in remote parts of the world" In our case we look after the parts and service priority by carrying a very full compliment of spare parts for all our equipment and all the tools and diagnostic equipment we need to do our own servicing without any external dependencies. It does come at a price of course and we have sold our previous boats with many, perhaps most of the new spare parts and specialty tools still onboard unused. Our perspective is that this is part of our insurance budget and works well for us given that I am fortunate to have a fairly broad set of skills and experiences, along with a very good workshop full of tools and equipment.

At the time we were choosing the engine for Mobius, there was no appreciable price difference between a new Gardner 6LXB and a similar power JD or Cummins engine. My investigation of part prices at the time was that in many cases the Gardner parts were less costly and there also were far fewer parts on the engine overall so parts were not a factor for us.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Even near civilisation.
People we know with an 8lxb were chasing a heat exchanger for a year or more for their vessel.

I could have a new one landed in a week for the 855.
Could likely track down 2nd hand in similar timeframe.

Our experience with parts so far for our 6LXB has been extremely good. We purchased both the engine and a very complete set of spare parts from Gardner Marine Diesel and Michael and his team at GMD in England have provided exemplary service and support over the years since. I suppose I mitigate the parts situation by carrying a very full compliment of spare parts onboard with me and so far GMD has been able to supply every part I have ever needed. Not sure which heat exchanger your friends 8LXB proved to be so difficult to find but I'm guessing it would be the engine oil heat exchanger which I know from being there that GMD always have in stock and which they provided for my onboard inventory.

However, in our use case and others like us of being on long passages and in very remote locations it is not the availability of parts that poses the problem but the ability to get them to the boat. Hence my choice to have what I'm sure many would see as an excessive inventory of new spare parts for most all the equipment we have onboard.

It is just what works well for us.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Can't say I had ever heard that term being applied before - black swan event - as in rare - there's tens of thousands here. Just a drive along any fresh waterway you see them.

Quite right and we find Gardner engines in boats pretty much everywhere on the planet we roam.

The Black Swan was in reference to the problems we have had with our engine, not the engines themselves. We think we now have them all fully resolved and can get back to watching seaguls on our boat rather than swans!

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

The hundreds of thousands of Gardner engines that are out there providing dependable service are a testament to the engines' reliability. For all brands of engines, **** happens. We have just been unlucky enough to see more than our share./QUOTE]


Christine,

What actually happened with the most recent engine? I looked over your blog, but must have missed it. We have the 8LXB. Thanks, Scot

Hi Scot, the most recent issue we had was a catastrophic failure of some valves in one of the heads. As best the people at Gardner could determine in their "forensic audit" they believe that retainers and new valve seat inserts on two exhaust valves were installed incorrectly by the machine shop I had surface the heads and install new valves, guides and seats. The machine shop installed the valves, springs, etc. and returned them to me as complete units. So I will take responsibility for this as I should have torn the heads down, removed the valves to fully inspect their work on the valve seats and done the installation myself. Expensive lesson but one well learned!

As I noted in several of my recent responses to this thread, all the problems we have experienced with our LXB have been due to human error, not the least of which have been mine or ones I could have mitigated. For example, the second rebuild as you may recall, was finally traced back to an oil pressure gauge that while new at the time turned out to be reading 20 PSI less than actual pressure. The result was that when I adjusted the pressure relief valve so the gauge read the proper 35 PSI there was actually over 55 PSI being delivered and this was blowing out the rubber O-rings and causing the loss of oil pressure that was so time consuming to track down. So I was bitten in the butt by the ASS in ASSUME when I assumed that a new oil pressure gauge was giving me the correct reading. I should have checked this MUCH sooner than I did and should have had two independent oil pressure gauges to begin with. I now have both dual mechanical dial gauges as well as an electric OP sensor putting the PSI onto our N2K network and any monitor, phone, tablet, computer onboard.

The new engine, built by GMD, is now in Athens and we hope to have it make the last leg of the journey back to Möbius by next week. As I noted in some previous responses to other posts in this thread, our confidence in Gardner engines is now higher than ever and made our decision to replace Mr. Gee with a newly built 6LXB a relatively easy one. We all have to make these decisions for ourselves and our boats but FWIW, I don't think that any of our experiences provide any reason for you to have any new concerns about your 8LXB or Gardner engines in general.

Thanks for all your comments and questions, they are much appreciated. Stay tuned for more as it happens on the Mobius.World blog and we will also do our best to post some updates here on this thread.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

For those who are afraid of electric [ modern ] engines. There are a lot of myths about the constant failure of the electronic side. They are few and far between. Possibly equal to mechanical failure of old school. If you are a distant traveler you can buy EVERY electrical component for a Cummins Engine for about $15,000.00 that includes harness, starter, ecu, sensors, fuel pumps hp pump, injectors. Often electronic engines are easier to work on. I can swap out an injection pump in about 2 hours and there is no critical timing to deal with. While you own it , it burns cleaner, more efficient, less susceptible to temperature change, more engine protection, better engine information and interfacing.

Not sure it is a myth, but completely agree that failures of electronics on modern engines are not very common.

However, our experience does not match with your statement that "If you are a distant traveler you can buy EVERY electrical component for a Cummins Engine for about $15,000.00 that includes harness, starter, ecu, sensors, fuel pumps hp pump, injectors."

Perhaps the laws and regulations have changed but at the time in 2017 when we were about to place our order for a JD6068 and a list of the spare parts we wanted to order to have onboard, JD informed us that there were several electronic parts on our list which they could gladly supply but could only send to us after we sent them the defective item it was replacing. We pursued this at length with them and up the chain in JD and were told that this was due to legal constraints they had to operate under. We had also been considering a Cummins engine, having had one in our previous boat, and were told the same thing. I also asked them if we could get around this by ordering the engine outside of the USA and they said no.
Perhaps they were not correct, but that is what they confirmed at the time and agreed that we would have to either accept or cancel the order. This was one of many factors which ultimately drove our decision to go with a Gardner engine as the best choice for us and our use cases. NOT saying this is the best choice for anyone else, just what works best for us.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Hand cranking option - great backup! For those who really venture to those remote places, with mechanical engines, perhaps carrying a spring starter and a bypass for the fuel shutdown solenoid would be prudent.

I did look into a compressed air starter as a backup as those were made for the LXB engines, but instead I carry a spare starter along with new brushes, bearings, contacts, etc.

No electrics on the Gardner so no fuel shutdown solenoid, just a mechanical lever. For safety in emergency situations, I did install a 24V solenoid that connects to this shut down lever so that we can shut down the engine from outside the ER and at both helms, but this is still just a mechanical lever on the engine so failure of the solenoid does not impact the engine itself, just means you would need to operate the lever by hand to shut down, which I often do when inside the ER.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Wayne, with a new build boat with an engine that doesn't comply with current emissions standards, how does that restrict your movements, if at all? And how does it restrict where the boat can be registered?

Wayne, with a new build boat with an engine that doesn't comply with current emissions standards, how does that restrict your movements, if at all? And how does it restrict where the boat can be registered?

Hi Peter. Things have been a wee bit hectic on my end lately so my apologies for taking so long to get to your question which I did see that you posted in previous thread as well.

I get the questions you ask from many others and not sure that I'm ever able to provide a definitive answer with any certainty, nor am I any expert on the rules and regulations for registration in other jurisdictions, so best I can do is share the following brief summary of my experience to date with having a Gardner 6LXB in our new build and having our boat fully registered in Canada and now in Jersey/UK.

As soon as we first considered the idea of using a Gardner engine in our boat, I did my best to extensively research the same question of whether it was possible to build a new boat with this engine. It was difficult to get a definitive answer given the specifics of the boat we were designing and about to build but also did not find anything definitive that said this was not possible so we proceeded.

I spent most days for several years in the boat yard of our builder as well as extended time in the yards of several of the other boat builders such as Damen and Alia who were also in the Antalya Free Zone in Turkey which gave me the chance to pursue this critical question with a wide range of officials and inspectors and I'm happy to share what I learned from all of them. Our builder was ISO 900x certified and all boats they were building had meet CE standards and so there were multiple inspections throughout the build and prior to launch of our boat. On multiple occasions I’ve had these various inspectors be very intrigued by our Gardner engine and spent an hour or more peppering me with questions about it in the engine room but never any questions about it meeting their requirements.

Based on my conversations on this topic with several registration officials in Canada, USA, UK and several certification inspectors at MCA, Bureau Veritas and CE, some of the specifications of our engine seem to allow it to meet with their approval. For example the marine version of the 6LXB is rated at 127HP/95kW and I've been told that engines under 100kW are exempt. Also, while these LXB engines were originally manufactured in 1970-90 (ours in 1978), when they are fully rebuilt and the only original parts are things like cast engine block, heads, etc. and all others are newly manufactured, the engine year is registered as the year of the new build, not the original date of manufacture.

Another factor which may play a role in this question is that our boat is a one off custom build not a production boat. Several other boats are now being built which are based on our design but with significant changes such that each of them are also custom one off designs and builds.

We were initially going to register the boat in my home country of Canada, and we went through the whole process and had that all approved and the boat registered there. Later, just before launch, we changed the registration to Jersey due mostly to insurance companies being unwilling to write a policy for any boat registered in the USA or Canada. So I can confirm that the boat met all the requirements to be fully registered in both these countries which have quite different rules and regulations. In both cases full details and specifications for the boat including the engine were required and submitted, along with the inspection reports from Bureau Veritas in our case. The registration was approved and official registration papers sent to us which we have been using ever since.

Same story with our insurance, all information and forms provided including engine details listed on the policy and no questions asked.

As to your question about restrictions to our movements to other countries, I’m not aware of any and can only tell you what I know from our limited experiences so far. To date we have only had taken the boat in/out of Turkey and the EU but in each of those check in/out procedures where engine details were provided via both the boat's registration and the check in/out forms for each country, there has never been any questioning of the engine or anything else with the boat.

Perhaps things would have been different if we had tried to register the boat in the USA? Perhaps we will run into difficulties bringing the boat into other countries as we cruise the world? I guess we will find out as we travel. Our intention is that for as long as our good health continues, we will continue to travel the world in our new boat and to experience all the differences between voyaging under power rather than under sail which is mostly all our previous experiences. We don’t have any “home base” so no intent to stay in any one country for any amount of time beyond that any foreign flagged boat is allowed.

Overall and just my personal perspective, I think this is most often a question for builders of production boats. Were we to have asked the likes of Nordhavn or Flemming or any other such production builders, to put a Gardner engine in a boat we wanted them to build for us, their answer would have course been sorry we can’t do that. But during our world wide search to find the best builder for us, I met with builders in New Zealand, Canada, USA, Turkey, Tunisia and the Netherlands. I had extensive detailed discussions and meetings with all of them about building our boat for which we had very detailed design and specifications including the Gardner engine, and all of them were glad to take on our build and sent us quotes.

My other curiosity I guess is that outside of boat builders meeting the requirements for the boats they build and during initial registration of a new boat, I’m not sure where or how this comes up for us boat owners? Between Christine and myself we have owned and been captaining boats of all kinds in most parts of the world for several decades now including the USA and we can’t recall any situation when checking in/out of a country or on the relatively rare boarding for inspection by Coast Guard or other officials where this question has ever come up.

Hope this helps answer your questions Peter and happy to answer any more you may have as best I can.

-Wayne

 

[sunchaser]

Wayne
It would seem the 100kw factor is your silver bullet. Another Turkish built boat is the N41. It has a pair of non electronic Beta Marines of less than 100kw each.

The torque curve and working RPM on the Gardner is a god send for long distance hauls, horse power is almost irrelevant in your case.

 

[Mako]

I recall that the 130kW limitation expires in January in the EU. As far as America goes and TT's questions, well, he recently imported a boat and filed his form 5021 (I think that was the EPA form number) so if you document in the USA you can never land your boat here with a non-compliant engine.

As far as cruising limitations, there are some inland waters in the EU where you wouldn't be able to venture, but that is a non-issue for the most part.

 

[dannc]

Regarding movement restrictions with a non emission compliant engine, the only place I have read about was traveling on some European rivers. The boat that did this did meet the requirements and had a 125-150HP engine.

From a US perspective, the only way to put in a non EPA compliant engine in a new build is if it is home built. I read that a few years ago and the regulations might have changed. I sure would like to be wrong.


Later,
Dan

 

[Steve DAntonio]

As the owner of a classic British sports car which I restored, and having worked on a few Gardners, that engine is beautiful and representative of some of the finest mid-century British craftsmanship. Just a work of mechanical art.

I've been following your progress (I saw your vessel dockside shortly after it was launched) and admire your tenacity and determination (and patience) to resolve problems.

Having said that, and in light of the woes it has generated, it's not a route I'd recommend for my clients. To each his own of course, and clearly you are happy with your decision, and you now know product very well, even better now I suppose.

For any piece of gear I use or recommend in a cruising vessel, and especially a propulsion engine, I want proven reliability, and proven means thousands and ideally tens of thousands of exactly that item running out in the world every day, now, with more than one source for parts and support.

Modern electronically-controlled diesel engines are remarkably reliable, fuel efficient, and proven with hundreds of millions of over the road and sea miles, and they have the advantage of being self-diagnostic.

When I managed a yard, where we also built boats, I recall the rush of some buying or building customers to get mechanical engines before the switch to electronic diesels occurred. As it happened, that turned out to be unnecessary, as the fear of electronic diesel unreliability proved to be unfounded.

I am curious, why not choose a more modern mechanically controlled engine rather than a literal antique? Cummins and other manufacturers have a very good program where they remanufacture mechanical and electronic engines for both marine and over the road applications, and they come with a full warranty https://www.cummins.com/engines/recon-marine

I've been to the factory where these are rebuilt, it is very impressive. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/...Engine-Remanufacturing-A-Well-kept-Secret.pdf

Again, as a British iron gearhead, I do love the Gardner;-)

 

[Mako]

Cummins and other manufacturers have a very good program where they remanufacture mechanical and electronic engines for both marine and over the road applications, and they come with a full warranty https://www.cummins.com/engines/recon-marine

Steve, do you have any issues with Cummins (or other mfgs) new build engines from China CCEC or CDEC? As opposed to a reman.

 

[Whodgins]

As the owner of a classic British sports car which I restored, and having worked on a few Gardners, that engine is beautiful and representative of some of the finest mid-century British craftsmanship. Just a work of mechanical art.

I've been following your progress (I saw your vessel dockside shortly after it was launched) and admire your tenacity and determination (and patience) to resolve problems.

Having said that, and in light of the woes it has generated, it's not a route I'd recommend for my clients. To each his own of course, and clearly you are happy with your decision, and you now know product very well, even better now I suppose.

For any piece of gear I use or recommend in a cruising vessel, and especially a propulsion engine, I want proven reliability, and proven means thousands and ideally tens of thousands of exactly that item running out in the world every day, now, with more than one source for parts and support.

Modern electronically-controlled diesel engines are remarkably reliable, fuel efficient, and proven with hundreds of millions of over the road and sea miles, and they have the advantage of being self-diagnostic.

When I managed a yard, where we also built boats, I recall the rush of some buying or building customers to get mechanical engines before the switch to electronic diesels occurred. As it happened, that turned out to be unnecessary, as the fear of electronic diesel unreliability proved to be unfounded.

I am curious, why not choose a more modern mechanically controlled engine rather than a literal antique? Cummins and other manufacturers have a very good program where they remanufacture mechanical and electronic engines for both marine and over the road applications, and they come with a full warranty https://www.cummins.com/engines/recon-marine

I've been to the factory where these are rebuilt, it is very impressive. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/...Engine-Remanufacturing-A-Well-kept-Secret.pdf

Again, as a British iron gearhead, I do love the Gardner;-)

Hi Steve, thanks so much for your highly experienced comments. Very sorry that we were not able to meet up with you when you were in Antalya and saw our boat after launch. Would have been great to show you around and discuss a bit but I’m sure you are on a very short schedule and on the clock with your clients for these visits to various yards around the world.

I certainly understand your question “I am curious, why not choose a more modern mechanically controlled engine rather than a literal antique?” and get this from others as well over the years. I did consider going this route and looked into the same engines you mention, but alas, I too am a fellow gearhead and have restored my share of antique cars and motorcycles, so I was already smitten with the Gardner LXB engines and the decision was made. All in the eye and mind of the beholder of course, but like you, I too similarly describe these engines as “collaborative works of mechanical art and engineering”.

I enjoyed re-reading your article about the Recon Marine Cummins engines and share your fascination and recommendation of this approach and the truly significant "green" factor of reusing and rebuilding over all new. Your visit there also reminded me of my times at Gardner Marine Diesel in Canterbury England, last one just two weeks ago, which is many ways is the remnants and history of the original Gardner company. GMD's main line of business these days follows the same approach you covered so well in your article, just at a smaller scale and continuing to use the more hand craftsmanship you spoke of. Indeed, the new engine I'm about to install is a very similarly recon build of a 6LXB. If you ever find yourself in the London UK area, you'd really enjoy a visit to GMD and I'd be glad to help set that up with Michael Harrison who runs GMD now. You two would have some great conversations as Michael's Dad spent almost all of his career working for the original Gardner factory in Patricroft and then bought up most of their equipment and inventory when the factory shut down.

As with so many aspects of our boats, these are all very personal decisions and I think all that really matters is that we make well thought through decisions which are the best match and fit for ourselves, our boats and our use cases. Choices that I most often refer to as the “Goldilocks” choices of “Just right; Just for us”. In the blog articles I write is do my best to explain how and why Christine and I make the decisions we do for our boat by outlining our criteria for our decisions and showing how a given piece of equipment does or does not meet those criteria in our opinion. Not seeking any common agreement, nor suggesting that our choices are the "best" for others, just hoping to provide an understanding of why these decisions were made and how they work best for us.

I’ve been following you and your articles for a long long time and value them so highly because you seem to follow a similar approach in your writing of explaining the criteria you have and showing why a given bit of kit, or a practice of a captain/engineer, does or does not meet the requirements, standards, etc. you lay out.

I fully agree with your comments about how well proven modern electronically controlled engines have turned out as well as how a Gardner and other old school mechanically controlled engines would not be something you would likely recommend as a good choice for most of your clients. In our case, we used the same criteria and priorities for our main engine you noted because like you we too “.. want proven reliability, and proven means thousands and ideally tens of thousands of exactly that item running out in the world every day,” We find boats all over the world that have Gardner engines purring away in them, often with multiple decades of trouble free use and so they meet this proven reliability criteria for us. You added the caveat of “…. with more than one source for parts and support.” which I would also agree with and stress to most others boat owners I meet with. In my case I have addressed this by carrying a very full inventory of spare parts and all the tools, equipment and machines I need to provide all the parts and support needed. My experiences in sailing the world so far is that I seek out and most enjoy some of the most remote spots in the world and in those areas there are not usually parts and support for any make of engine within many days or weeks of travel if at all. Hence, my evolution towards having my boats be as some of aptly described “a floating parts department”. Just what has worked out best for me.

As you can well imagine and inferred in your comments, I’ve been reviewing our choice of engine of late and were I to have it to do all over again I think I would still choose the Gardner as it is that Goldilocks choice for me and our boat and use cases. I’ve got a full inventory of all the parts I can ever imagine needing onboard, extended my supply of British standard tools, fasteners, dies, etc. built my own array of specialty tools and a good library of repair and parts manuals. No doubt a function of familiarity that you build up with any engine or bit of kit you work on a lot, but with the added simplicity of these old school engines, I find the Gardner to be the easiest engine to work on and restore of any I know. Surely NOT a choice that would be best for most others but in my case I am about as self sufficient as I think I can get in terms of being able to keep our engine up and running now that I have these previous lessons so well learned. You were also very correct in your observation that I now have an extremely “intimate” knowledge of these LXB engines and that will serve me well in the years and decades ahead.

I do hope that we have the opportunity in the future to meet up in some anchorage or more likely some boat or trade show Steve and look forward to that day. Thanks again for taking the time to add your first hand knowledge to this and so many other threads here on the TF. Look forward to following your travels and articles as well so please keep those coming.

-Wayne

 

[hollywood8118]

Personally, I think having that polished piece of post industrial modern art ticking away in the engine room vs. a new bland looking yellow, white or orange ( never green) engine would also tip the scales for me.

I have seen in person a couple Gardners in motion and they are beautiful
Hollywood

 

[Fletcher500]

Cummins

Steve, do you have any issues with Cummins (or other mfgs) new build engines from China CCEC or CDEC? As opposed to a reman.

2017 Cummins.

 

[dannc]

As the owner of a classic British sports car which I restored, and having worked on a few Gardners, that engine is beautiful and representative of some of the finest mid-century British craftsmanship. Just a work of mechanical art.
...

When we visited a boatyard in China, I was lucky to have seen two "new" Gardner 8XLBs on pallets waiting to be installed into a river vessel. The engine, even sitting on a pallet, was simply a work of art. It was gorgeous.

If the boat designs we are interested could fit a Gardner, it would be a consideration, but the engine won't fit and it does not meet the EPA requirements. <sigh>

An engine is an engine. It needs to run, run reliably, etc. I am engine agnostic. But there is just something about a Gardner.

Later,
Dan