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Old 10-15-2017, 01:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Aquabelle View Post
"Small" and "Quiet" don't go together in AC gennies. I would avoid like the plague those small AC sets that need to run at 3000/3600 rpm (2 pole). For a quality DC genset example consider the output/weight/compactness of this from renowned US firm Ample Power:

Genie 12V, 280 Amps

The G12/280 uses the same powerful engine as the G24/175, but produces 280 Amps at 12-volts instead of 175 Amps at 24 Volts.
Dimensions are 24L X 22W X 24H. Weight is 185 pounds.
The other advantages of a DC genset is that the efficiency losses of generating AC power then converting it back to DC for battery charging are avoided.....these are significantly more than losses from quality inverters.
Yes ,the loss is less from a high quality inverter, but you need another "thing" on board, and all the support wiring/maintenance/etc for the thing.

I know a doctor with an MS34 who hated the noise of the NexGen. He bought a solar panel for the top of the pilot house, charge controller, another 8D battery, and an inverter. I wasn't there to help, but it took two seasons and a pair of burned batteries to get it all working well. He loves it now. He uses a Magma grill instead of the induction cooktop.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:02 PM   #62
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Marin,
There are lots and lots of gensets out there. You make it sound like NL gensets are 2 or 3 times as good as anything else. Can't be possible. First of all NL dosn't even make anything. They are an assemblage of parts from manufacturers around the world. Anybody can obtain the nessesary parts and arranging them all together is'nt rocket science. For the buck I would think Westerbeke or Klassen would be a better value and 999% as good or even better.

Eric Henning
stay AWAY, FAR FAR AWAY FROM Westerbeke’s. Good gensets but a company hated by its dealers and people like me. I own one, I am not a Westerbeke Customer but an “end user”. Then there are the repackaged parts. Mitsubishi valve $23, same valve from Westerbeke, repackaged $73. Head gasket $49 Mitsubishi, same Mitsubishi head gasket repackaged by Westerbeke $211. The only thing Westerbeke does is paint steel red.
My take, Grandaddy or Great Grandaddy founded the company in the 1930’s, couple of builders moved it forward Now the great or grandson is killing the inherited company.

That is just their pricing, I reached out to the company during my initial troubles and was treated reprehensibility.

My thought, buy a Genset powered by Kubota. Phaser or Kubota, buying parts from a farm tractor company is far better than anything MARINE..
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:48 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Aquabelle View Post
"Small" and "Quiet" don't go together in AC gennies. I would avoid like the plague those small AC sets that need to run at 3000/3600 rpm (2 pole). For a quality DC genset example consider the output/weight/compactness of this from renowned US firm Ample Power:

Genie 12V, 280 Amps

The G12/280 uses the same powerful engine as the G24/175, but produces 280 Amps at 12-volts instead of 175 Amps at 24 Volts.
Dimensions are 24L X 22W X 24H. Weight is 185 pounds.
The other advantages of a DC genset is that the efficiency losses of generating AC power then converting it back to DC for battery charging are avoided.....these are significantly more than losses from quality inverters.
Is Ample power still in business? Last time I tried to buy something it was pretty much a clearance sale, as far as I could tell as they were selling what they had on hand.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:54 PM   #64
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stay AWAY, FAR FAR AWAY FROM Westerbeke’s. Good gensets but a company hated by its dealers and people like me. I own one, I am not a Westerbeke Customer but an “end user”. Then there are the repackaged parts. Mitsubishi valve $23, same valve from Westerbeke, repackaged $73. Head gasket $49 Mitsubishi, same Mitsubishi head gasket repackaged by Westerbeke $211. The only thing Westerbeke does is paint steel red.
My take, Grandaddy or Great Grandaddy founded the company in the 1930’s, couple of builders moved it forward Now the great or grandson is killing the inherited company.

That is just their pricing, I reached out to the company during my initial troubles and was treated reprehensibility.

My thought, buy a Genset powered by Kubota. Phaser or Kubota, buying parts from a farm tractor company is far better than anything MARINE..
Caps luck stuck?. My Westerbeke has performed flawlessly for many years. But there is always tomorrow in this boating world.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:56 PM   #65
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Caps luck stuck?. My Westerbeke has performed flawlessly for many years. But there is always tomorrow in this boating world.
He just wanted to make sure you heard him.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:07 PM   #66
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Is Ample power still in business? Last time I tried to buy something it was pretty much a clearance sale, as far as I could tell as they were selling what they had on hand.

Not sure if AMPLE is still in biz....they did do a big re-focus on telecoms customers. But I intended their DC generator as just an example of the high output/small footprint that these offer
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:08 PM   #67
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Tip... when you need Westerbeke engine parts contact Ace Diesel in Miami. Raw water pump is generic. Like I said, good gensets. I would say very good, however the company is ethically bankrupt. The dealers have been robbed of the ability to be the only source of overpriced parts, you can buy them direct now. Pissed off dealers.
One dealer said to me, “unless a customer insist, we do not put a repower Westerbeke anything in a customers boat”. Same one said that the no bullshit company currently is Onan. Isolate it, call and they overnight the part (warranty), no questions. Trouble is, an unheard of Asian engine currently.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:12 PM   #68
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Not sure if AMPLE is still in biz....they did do a big re-focus on telecoms customers. But I intended their DC generator as just an example of the high output/small footprint that these offer
Ample uses the same engine, more or less, that NexGen does. Very reliable Kubota ag motors. It is certainly possible to mate a 10 - 12 hp Kubota to a large frame Balmar alternator and make your own. Next year I'll build a unit using a hydraulic motor since my genset produces more than enough power to run the charger on the Trace 4000 charger/inverted plus turn a 175 amp 24v alternator. Really small footprint, with no addition of noise beyond what the NL genset already produces, but these will re-charge my house bank in around an hour.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:14 PM   #69
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Caps luck stuck?. My Westerbeke has performed flawlessly for many years. But there is always tomorrow in this boating world.
Caps because I have had almost a year of Westerbeke induced misery.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:03 PM   #70
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Ample uses the same engine, more or less, that NexGen does. Very reliable Kubota ag motors. It is certainly possible to mate a 10 - 12 hp Kubota to a large frame Balmar alternator and make your own. Next year I'll build a unit using a hydraulic motor since my genset produces more than enough power to run the charger on the Trace 4000 charger/inverted plus turn a 175 amp 24v alternator. Really small footprint, with no addition of noise beyond what the NL genset already produces, but these will re-charge my house bank in around an hour.
Carl

A few questions:

How many PTO points on your Cat are available for hydraulic drives? Whose drive will you use? How will it's size be calculated? Will the alternator PTO be a stand alone or shared with something else?

Are the LiFe batteries working out OK?
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:42 PM   #71
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Carl

A few questions:

How many PTO points on your Cat are available for hydraulic drives? Whose drive will you use? How will it's size be calculated? Will the alternator PTO be a stand alone or shared with something else?

Are the LiFe batteries working out OK?
The fluid for the auxiliary alternator comes from the NL 20kw. It is way underloaded when just powering the charger on the Trace inverter. The NL has a pump on the front end, actuated by an electric clutch, and it puts out 30 gpm or something silly - enough to power the stern and bow thrusters at any rate. The pump the NL will turn will be attached to a Balmar 180 amp 24vdc alternator and will probably be a Parker, 2000 psi, 8gpm 10 hp. I calculated the size based on the hp Balmar indicates is needed to turn the alternator at the appropriate rpm. And the alternator will be stand alone, dedicated to charge the house bank in conjunction with the Trace charger.

The LiFe batteries seem to be working fine. As noted elsewhere, I have found it easiest just to be the human voltage regulator, although if I fall overboard everything is set to work fine without my involvement. However, since the Li batteries absorb pretty much 100% of the current you put to them, I just set a timer about 5 minutes before they reach full charge and take them off the charging source when the absorption rate is < 20 amps or so. When at the dock, they are also offline and I use the Pb batteries on float to power dockside 24 vdc loads. At anchor, the Li batteries come online and I then drain out around 350 - 400 amps, then refill. They've been sitting at the dock offline now for 6 weeks, at 50% discharge and were at 26.4 volts this morning.

Pure amateur hour, of course, but I think it will work.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:25 PM   #72
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Delfin,
with all that charging power from the genset and the hydraulic gen why would you use the Trace charger at all?
or is the Trace just if on shore power for float?
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:37 PM   #73
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Delfin,
with all that charging power from the genset and the hydraulic gen why would you use the Trace charger at all?
or is the Trace just if on shore power for float?
At anchor, the genset powers the charger. That provides 100 amps. The hydraulic motor will provide another 160 amps or so, and since that Li batteries will easily absorb all of that and more it will reduce daily charging time to an hour and a bit.
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:29 AM   #74
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Wow. I did not realize the acceptance rate of Li
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:58 AM   #75
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I don't get this. A 20kW gennie, and then to get more batt charging amps going to set up a hydraulic system to drive a DC alternator? Why not use the AC power created to power another or larger AC to DC charger. Way less moving parts and better efficiency. Hydraulics not known for good efficiency. And noisy. And messy.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:03 AM   #76
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Ski

What would you guess is the lesser overall efficiency of a hydraulic drive to produce battery charging electricity? Is this material given an hour a day of run time?

Then how about size comparisons for the total package? As far as messy my Vickers PTO is not messy at all. No drips in the system anywhere. Wish my engines were that drip free.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:59 AM   #77
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Efficiency has a pretty broad range in hydraulics, depending on the type of pump and motor and the control system. Typical pump in good shape about 80%, motor about the same, 80%. Alternator maybe 70%. Total efficiency then 0.8x0.8x0.7= 0.45, so 45% efficient. Not that good. Going through the electrical side call the gen end 85% and an inverter based charger 85% and you get 0.85x0.85= 72%. Guessing on the numbers a bit, but probably pretty close.

Lots of hydraulic things are also noisy.

You can even use a transformer based charger with no regulation that only is on for the bulk charging and turns off with say a timer or volt control, let the other charger do the final top off.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:28 AM   #78
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I don't get this. A 20kW gennie, and then to get more batt charging amps going to set up a hydraulic system to drive a DC alternator? Why not use the AC power created to power another or larger AC to DC charger. Way less moving parts and better efficiency. Hydraulics not known for good efficiency. And noisy. And messy.
I already have the alternator as a spare, the hydraulics to manage a new pump are already all in place, so it would be quite a bit cheaper to install a hydraulic system than wire up another 5 kw charger/inverter. You're right about the potential for noise, although I'm not sure a pump would add much to the genset.

All that being said, I may never get around to adding another charging source for a simple reason. As a practical matter, when we run the genset we also make water, do laundry and likely cook. We are profligate water users of close to 50 gallons per day (showers, fresh water wash down, fresh water toilet) so it takes me around 2 hours to replace that. This becomes the limiting factor for how long the genset runs and two hours gives me 210 ah out of the 300 a day we usually consume when at anchor, so adding more of any type of equipment to reduce genset run time by 45 minutes a day may be something I never get around to.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:35 AM   #79
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These guys still around? I remember seeing them at the Seattle boat Show for years. The seem to do a number of different configurations using the same Kubota engine.
https://aquamarineinc.net/index.php
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:14 PM   #80
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Nextgen

Had a Nextgen 5.5 on last boat. Used a Kubota tractor block for engine, and was reliable. Factory is in Jacksonville, FL, and we had a nice tour there to see how they were put together. As previously said, most gensets are put together from a variety of parts. Just check out which parts and how available they are. Half the battle is the installation, especially vibration damping.
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