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Old 11-05-2019, 02:02 PM   #81
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Hey Ross,

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Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
Thanks, Greg, for your comment. The boat has spent every winter in heated storage. So, though I've not tested it, I'd not expect any glycol in the cooling system.
The boat has a closed freshwater loop and heat exchanger?

I know water has a higher specific heat capacity than antifreeze (ethylene and propylene glycol), so it cools better. But, even in Florida (and So Cal before), I've always used an anti-freeze/water mix. I guess I figured there'd be anti-corrosion and pH-balance additives that would help keep the cooling loop clean and corrosion-free.

I'm not saying what I do is right, or that you should do it, too. It is just what I was taught to do -- and sort of thought everyone did.
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:21 PM   #82
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Intake hose in a bucket and garden hose in bucket, turn on hose and regulate to what the engine demand is run genny till hot and change oil and filter. re run engine under load and check oil when engine has warmed again. Ensure hose and exhaust water going somewhere safe, you can always put some schedule 40 2"pvc or similar to your hull exhaust to carry fumes and water etc out of the building. PVC repair rubber connector from home depots only a couple of bucks.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:11 PM   #83
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Anytime I found milky oil it was standard practice to drain, fill with diesel, drain and add new oil and filter. Any decent mechanic should have a way to pressure test the fresh water side. How old is the riser?
I agree that it should be possible for a mechanic to perform such a task. Perhaps it would be challenging since the boat is in the back corner of a very large heated building - with numerous other big boats on blocks surrounding her. I plan to drive up and investigate further, now that I have a better idea of what I'm talking about, thanks to everyone here.



If you mean the exhaust riser, I believe it's original 2006 equipment.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:19 PM   #84
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Hey Ross,



The boat has a closed freshwater loop and heat exchanger?

I know water has a higher specific heat capacity than antifreeze (ethylene and propylene glycol), so it cools better. But, even in Florida (and So Cal before), I've always used an anti-freeze/water mix. I guess I figured there'd be anti-corrosion and pH-balance additives that would help keep the cooling loop clean and corrosion-free.

I'm not saying what I do is right, or that you should do it, too. It is just what I was taught to do -- and sort of thought everyone did.
Not sure, Greg, but I believe the Kohler 8kn diesel generator has a closed cooling system with heat exchanger. I know the main Yanmar engines are configured this way. But the Kohler?
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:40 PM   #85
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Greetings,
Mr. OD. I've never heard of any "creatures" in Georgian Bay although I am not very familiar with Lake Huron lore. You may be thinking of the Ogopogo that dwells in lake Okanagan in British Columbia.



Here's "proof"! https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...3e845c99206584
https://youtu.be/85hoQeXLmVw?t=14

Seems our Lake Okanagan Ogopogo has a sibling in the desert.

Seriously though,
I have never seen any engine filled with just water. Manufacturers ALWAYS put in a 50% mix of Anti Freeze and water, as there are corrosion inhibitors in the AF. Your test results showing no AF now prove that your milky oil is from a water leak, so look at exhaust riser, water pump seals, Oil cooler leaks, but not at Head Gasket or other sources connected to the in-engine cooling.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #86
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Ross,

I’ve been boating (and winterizing) on Georgian Bay for a number of years. Once our boat is hauled, I run the generator with a winterization kit connected and fed into the raw water strainer.

https://www.amazon.ca/Camco-65501-Yo.../dp/B0000AXQU2

I fill the 20 ltr jug with pink RV antifreeze and the start the engine. Open the boiler valve on the jug and it’s fed through the raw water circuit. It will run for 2 or 3 minutes on 20 ltrs.
This would allow you to run the engine without the need for a water supply in the storage facility. You could then change the oil and filter one more time for peace of mind over the winter. If the yard won’t allow you to run it yourself, get them to do it.
I winterize both my main engines and the generator this way every year. Not ideal for oil change as the generator doesn’t get hot, but at least you’ll have the peace of mind knowing there is a second change with fresh oil in it for the winter.

James
Thanks, James. That practice sounds, well, sound. In theory, though, stowing my boat in a heated building for the winter should alleviate me of the need to fully winterize my engines. I'm told that all I have to treat is the septic and fresh water systems, that is empty and shock them. Is this not your view too?
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:43 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
https://youtu.be/85hoQeXLmVw?t=14

Seems our Lake Okanagan Ogopogo has a sibling in the desert.

Seriously though,
I have never seen any engine filled with just water. Manufacturers ALWAYS put in a 50% mix of Anti Freeze and water, as there are corrosion inhibitors in the AF. Your test results showing no AF now prove that your milky oil is from a water leak, so look at exhaust riser, water pump seals, Oil cooler leaks, but not at Head Gasket or other sources connected to the in-engine cooling.
That makes sense, Keith. I plan a trip up to visit the marina very soon to investigate further.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:06 PM   #88
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The idea of extracting most of the oil/water through the dipstick using a hand "oil" pump and small hose is a good one as the water will eventually settle to the bottom. That should help remove the water as long as you don't still have a "leak".
Otherwise, great advice to change the oil and filter a few times to "clean it out".
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:37 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by firehoser75 View Post
The idea of extracting most of the oil/water through the dipstick using a hand "oil" pump and small hose is a good one as the water will eventually settle to the bottom. That should help remove the water as long as you don't still have a "leak".
Otherwise, great advice to change the oil and filter a few times to "clean it out".
My boat is equipped with an oil extraction system. Thus, most of the oil can be removed easily. But perhaps the remnants of the oil, and water, if any at the bottom of the pan, could be removed using a hand pump. I'll put it into practice. Thanks Tom.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:16 AM   #90
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Hey Ross,

My Kohler 6EOD is a 6KW diesel and it is cooled with a closed loop and heat exchanger versus directly with raw water. So, I am betting yours is the same, even if you are in fresh water. And, if that is the case, I'm really betting on it being a xyz-glycol/water mix. Doing otherwise would just be unusual (and, as I mentioned, in my world, worthy of a cooling system flush and correction).

On your way to the boat what I'd recommend you stop by an auto parts store or Wal-Mart and get an antifreeze tester. They usually cost $4-$9. Something like this:
-- https://www.walmart.com/ip/TESTER-CO...STONE/16817506

Then, once on the boat, I'd pull the cap off of the cooling header tank and look at the inside of the cap and the inside of the neck. Then, I'd put my finger or the corner of a clean shop towel into the tank to get into the fluid. See if there is any oily or milky residue. Oil is lighter than water, so if it gets into the coolant, it'll find its way to the top. Maybe if coolant was getting into the oil, oil was getting into the coolant. If you find oil in the coolant, well, that'll be a big hint (the opposite doesn't disprove anything, though).

The next thing I'd do is give the coolant a good smell. Does it smell like water or antifreeze (or antifree-water mix)? After that, I'd check the coolant with the tester. It basically measures the density of the fluid and can give you a good idea if it is water, coolant, or a mix. It'll also let you see the color. Is it clear like water? Deeply colored like antifreeze? Or lightly colored like a mix?

With luck, your nose, your eyes, and the needle will give a similar (or, at the least, not inconsistent) indication. If you want to be a scientist, you can even send a coolant sample out to be tested, just like the oil. Ultimately, if you've got glycol in the coolant (And, I think you really should), but not in the oil -- I really don't think the coolant system is leaking into the oil.

If you find that your cooling system truly has only water, that's not much help in narrowing things down. So, for the sake of conversation (and, because I think it more likely), let's assume that the cooling system has some glycol -- and your oil sample shows none (as I understand is the case). The question becomes, how can raw water get into the oil?

-- One possibility is that it was over-cranked when starting. In a marine generator if the engine won't start and one keeps trying, the raw water pump can push water through the heat exchanger into the exhaust, and then let it fall back into the motor This is actually a pretty dangerous condition, because it can get into the cylinder and cause a hydrolock with damage like bend rods or much worse. Basically, unlike a fuel-air mix, the cylinders can't compress water, so if the generator starts and it tries, things bend and break. (If a genset won't start after a short attempt, close the intake seacock, until it does...)

-- Another situation that can cause a hydrolock in an aft-exhaust genset is cruising without the genset running. If one backs down or gets hit with following seas, without the positive pressure from exhaust, it is possible for water to get forced up the exhaust and for the same thing to happen. (This is why I always cruise with my genset on and had the exhaust and elbow raised higher.) The same can happen with side exhaust from excessive rocking side-to-side when moored or anchored. (In a badly designed exhaust, shared with the main(s), the main(s)'s exhaust can also get pushed backward into the genset).

-- Another possibility is that a human was intending to top off the coolant -- and dumped it into the valve cover cap, instead. It sounds crazy. But, depending upon access, it may be easier to do than it seems. They are often similar-sized push-and-twist caps on top.

-- If the generator has an oil cooler, it could be leaking. I think it unlikely. My last generator didn't have one. And, on my current generator it is a rarely installed option. If you can tell me the model of your generator, I can see if I can find the service or parts manual and look.


As you can probably tell from some of my posts, I am the type that likes to collect all the data first. So, although I'd change that oil and filter repeatedly right away. I'd also have sent it off for analysis (as you did), analyze the coolant (sending it out, if needed), think carefully about the usage and service history for clues (hard start? following seas while off? Recent fill with coolant?) and look carefully for signs of raw water backing up, rust, etc.

At any rate, if you post the model of generator, I can google around and see if I can find the service and/or parts manuals, and see if there is likely an oil cooler or not.

But, I think the absence of glycol in the oil will turn out to be a big clue.

Cheers!
-Greg
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:30 AM   #91
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I personally don't think there is much mystery here. I know of 5 or 6 34Ts that have had water in the generator (mine included). The cause was a poorly engineered exhaust system by Mainship. Not enough rise the and vented loop mounted too low.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:20 AM   #92
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"I have never seen any engine filled with just water. Manufacturers ALWAYS put in a 50% mix of Anti Freeze and water,"

A new modern engine with a pressure cap needs the 50/50 to raise the coolant boil point.

Many older engines were simply drained overnight and filled when being used again.

A can or 2 of "water pump lube" was added in the spring when draining was no longer required.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:18 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"I have never seen any engine filled with just water. Manufacturers ALWAYS put in a 50% mix of Anti Freeze and water,"

A new modern engine with a pressure cap needs the 50/50 to raise the coolant boil point.

Many older engines were simply drained overnight and filled when being used again.

A can or 2 of "water pump lube" was added in the spring when draining was no longer required.
Dont forget to drain the mufflers too.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:11 PM   #94
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I personally don't think there is much mystery here. I know of 5 or 6 34Ts that have had water in the generator (mine included). The cause was a poorly engineered exhaust system by Mainship. Not enough rise the and vented loop mounted too low.
Do you happen to have any photos of your exhaust configuration, Sojourner? I'm somewhat of a novice. I might be able to figure it out, but photos would be wonderful. Or I can discuss the issue with the marina service manager.


Do you mean the main exhaust pipes? Does the generator exhaust connect with this main pipe? Do I just raise these pipes? Vented loop?
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:42 PM   #95
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Hey Ross,

It isnt really a specific configuration. It is a common situation on many generator installs. Engine rooms tend to be shallow, so there is just limited headroom. Some boats are certainly more vulnerable than others. The root problem is that pipes let fluids flow both ways and, with boats changing in position in the water, so does the angle that needs to be overcome for things to flow in reverse.

Things can sometimes be improved by raising the elbow or loop vent or the exhaust itself. When I bought my boat, my mechanic went through a bunch of gyrations to raise mine.

The real defense is to run the generator while underway.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:52 PM   #96
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Hey Ross,

It isnt really a specific configuration. It is a common situation on many generator installs. Engine rooms tend to be shallow, so there is just limited headroom. Some boats are certainly more vulnerable than others. The root problem is that pipes let fluids flow both ways and, with boats changing in position in the water, so does the angle that needs to be overcome for things to flow in reverse.

Things can sometimes be improved by raising the elbow or loop vent or the exhaust itself. When I bought my boat, my mechanic went through a bunch of gyrations to raise mine.

The real defense is to run the generator while underway.
I believe I understand. It's most unfortunate that these pipes cannot have some type of one-way anti-backflow valve. I'll take another look at the exhaust setup on my boat, but I thought the rise was high enough. Maybe not. Seeds of doubt have been firmly planted.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:03 PM   #97
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Hey Ross,

They do make exhaust flappers. Your mileage with them may vary.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:10 PM   #98
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This is the vented loop on my boat. Note it is as high as it can go in the ER. When Mainship built the boats they placed them about 10" lower.

There was also no rise between the muffler and the overboard discharge. My new configuration has some rise there as well.

This exhaust system for the generator is completely separate from the one for the main engine. The main engine shouldn't have this problem - the muffler on that engine has a 'overflow' port on it that leads overboard. If the water gets too high in that muffler it drains through that port.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:42 PM   #99
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The photo shows the raw water cooling hose coming from the generator's heat exchanger end on one side and the generator's exhaust mixer on the other, and while siphoning in that direction in a very low installation might be possible, the raw water pump's impeller is not likely to allow much through. The other, and more likely point of possible seawater ingress in a low-to-the-water Mainship is directly through the exhaust port, through the muffler, and through the exhaust mixer and into the engine. I had this happen as a result of Hurricane Michael's damage to my boat lift which resulted in my mooring the boat in the water. When a wind storm roiled the waters against my side-mounted generator exhaust in 2-3 foot waves for a night, I ended up with an hydro-locked generator. The immediate oil sample by Blackstone showed only a trace of water, but the sodium (boat in saltwater) was ten times the universal average. to cause the There was not enough water push in to cause the oil to emulsify or show anything unusual on the stick. If the PO ends up with milky oil after a short run following renewed oil, I'd be looking at the oil cooler, if there is one.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:25 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkesden View Post
Hey Ross,

My Kohler 6EOD is a 6KW diesel and it is cooled with a closed loop and heat exchanger versus directly with raw water. So, I am betting yours is the same, even if you are in fresh water. And, if that is the case, I'm really betting on it being a xyz-glycol/water mix. Doing otherwise would just be unusual (and, as I mentioned, in my world, worthy of a cooling system flush and correction).

On your way to the boat what I'd recommend you stop by an auto parts store or Wal-Mart and get an antifreeze tester. They usually cost $4-$9. Something like this:
-- https://www.walmart.com/ip/TESTER-CO...STONE/16817506

Then, once on the boat, I'd pull the cap off of the cooling header tank and look at the inside of the cap and the inside of the neck. Then, I'd put my finger or the corner of a clean shop towel into the tank to get into the fluid. See if there is any oily or milky residue. Oil is lighter than water, so if it gets into the coolant, it'll find its way to the top. Maybe if coolant was getting into the oil, oil was getting into the coolant. If you find oil in the coolant, well, that'll be a big hint (the opposite doesn't disprove anything, though).

The next thing I'd do is give the coolant a good smell. Does it smell like water or antifreeze (or antifree-water mix)? After that, I'd check the coolant with the tester. It basically measures the density of the fluid and can give you a good idea if it is water, coolant, or a mix. It'll also let you see the color. Is it clear like water? Deeply colored like antifreeze? Or lightly colored like a mix?

With luck, your nose, your eyes, and the needle will give a similar (or, at the least, not inconsistent) indication. If you want to be a scientist, you can even send a coolant sample out to be tested, just like the oil. Ultimately, if you've got glycol in the coolant (And, I think you really should), but not in the oil -- I really don't think the coolant system is leaking into the oil.

If you find that your cooling system truly has only water, that's not much help in narrowing things down. So, for the sake of conversation (and, because I think it more likely), let's assume that the cooling system has some glycol -- and your oil sample shows none (as I understand is the case). The question becomes, how can raw water get into the oil?

-- One possibility is that it was over-cranked when starting. In a marine generator if the engine won't start and one keeps trying, the raw water pump can push water through the heat exchanger into the exhaust, and then let it fall back into the motor This is actually a pretty dangerous condition, because it can get into the cylinder and cause a hydrolock with damage like bend rods or much worse. Basically, unlike a fuel-air mix, the cylinders can't compress water, so if the generator starts and it tries, things bend and break. (If a genset won't start after a short attempt, close the intake seacock, until it does...)

-- Another situation that can cause a hydrolock in an aft-exhaust genset is cruising without the genset running. If one backs down or gets hit with following seas, without the positive pressure from exhaust, it is possible for water to get forced up the exhaust and for the same thing to happen. (This is why I always cruise with my genset on and had the exhaust and elbow raised higher.) The same can happen with side exhaust from excessive rocking side-to-side when moored or anchored. (In a badly designed exhaust, shared with the main(s), the main(s)'s exhaust can also get pushed backward into the genset).

-- Another possibility is that a human was intending to top off the coolant -- and dumped it into the valve cover cap, instead. It sounds crazy. But, depending upon access, it may be easier to do than it seems. They are often similar-sized push-and-twist caps on top.

-- If the generator has an oil cooler, it could be leaking. I think it unlikely. My last generator didn't have one. And, on my current generator it is a rarely installed option. If you can tell me the model of your generator, I can see if I can find the service or parts manual and look.


As you can probably tell from some of my posts, I am the type that likes to collect all the data first. So, although I'd change that oil and filter repeatedly right away. I'd also have sent it off for analysis (as you did), analyze the coolant (sending it out, if needed), think carefully about the usage and service history for clues (hard start? following seas while off? Recent fill with coolant?) and look carefully for signs of raw water backing up, rust, etc.

At any rate, if you post the model of generator, I can google around and see if I can find the service and/or parts manuals, and see if there is likely an oil cooler or not.

But, I think the absence of glycol in the oil will turn out to be a big clue.

Cheers!
-Greg
Thanks for all your comments and advice, Greg. At the moment, I can't tell you the model of generator except that it's a Kohler 8kw diesel with sound shield.


I started the genny early in the year this past season, but didn't run it long. Just wanted to make sure it was working. When I tried to start it near the end of the season to charge batteries, it wouldn't even turn over for very long - dead battery. Nevertheless, I did turn it over for a couple of minutes. Upon plugging into shore power back at the marina, it started easily and ran for a few minutes. And maybe 2 weeks later, I discovered the cafe oil.


The flap-equipped main exhaust ports are on each corner of the transom just beneath the swim platform and below water level.
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