Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-01-2019, 10:06 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Thanks again, everyone. As usual, your collective advice is packed with knowledge and obvious experience. I'm learning, slowly but surely.


The mechanic, who seemed very knowledgeable, works for the marina where my boat is kept. Though I have a growing distrust for this marina and its staff, I prefer to keep it relatively low key at this point. However, I intend to communicate via email so as to have a record of our conversations.


I plan to contact the service manager today to explain my concerns and request that he have the oil checked again for water traces. And if after operating the engine to running temperature, the new oil still indicates the presence of water, that it be replaced again, and with a new filter.


Thanks again, everyone, for your kind support.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:20 AM   #22
Guru
 
City: Boston
Vessel Name: Adelante
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
Thanks for your comments, Pete. My generator is a Kohler 8kw diesel with fewer than 100 hours. Still unsure what to do, but not being terribly mechanical, I'll contact the service manager again to seek a solution. At least with all you guys offering the benefit of your combined experience, I'll have the questions to ask.
I would not waste time with service manager. his opinion of potential cause was flat out wrong. As others have mentioned, ingesting water via overcranking would hydrolock engine. And it doesn't take an oil test to determine that milky oil is a result of water contamination.

It's a fresh water cooled engine, with the fresh water in turn cooled by the raw water heat exchanger. The fresh water can (and most probably did) mix with oil either due to a defective head gasket or a crack in the block that expanded while running under load.

Changing the oil will prevent moisture damage but won't solve the problem. I would pull the head off as a first step. The cause must be determined before repairs considered.
__________________

SoWhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:34 AM   #23
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
Thanks again, everyone. As usual, your collective advice is packed with knowledge and obvious experience. I'm learning, slowly but surely.


The mechanic, who seemed very knowledgeable, works for the marina where my boat is kept. Though I have a growing distrust for this marina and its staff, I prefer to keep it relatively low key at this point. However, I intend to communicate via email so as to have a record of our conversations.


I plan to contact the service manager today to explain my concerns and request that he have the oil checked again for water traces. And if after operating the engine to running temperature, the new oil still indicates the presence of water, that it be replaced again, and with a new filter.


Thanks again, everyone, for your kind support.
No, no, no. Didn't seem very knowledgeable at all if he doesn't know what milky oil is. At that point, nothing else can redeem him.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:37 AM   #24
Guru
 
Cigatoo's Avatar
 
City: Narragansett Bay
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoWhat View Post
I would not waste time with service manager. his opinion of potential cause was flat out wrong. As others have mentioned, ingesting water via overcranking would hydrolock engine. And it doesn't take an oil test to determine that milky oil is a result of water contamination.

It's a fresh water cooled engine, with the fresh water in turn cooled by the raw water heat exchanger. The fresh water can (and most probably did) mix with oil either due to a defective head gasket or a crack in the block that expanded while running under load.

Changing the oil will prevent moisture damage but won't solve the problem. I would pull the head off as a first step. The cause must be determined before repairs considered.
If there is a major failure like a cracked block or head gasket antifreeze would show up in an oil test. Jumping to that conclusion as a start is a little extreme wouldn’t you say? The OP said water showed up. Who knows how it got there. On that assumption I would start simple. Clean things out and see if the “moisture” re occurs. If it does, do another oil sample / analysis and see what the “moisture” is made up of. That will point whomever is working on it in the right direction.
Cigatoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:51 AM   #25
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
If that is too much trouble, might be able to fill whole engine with oil or diesel. Maybe take rocker cover off and dry out that area, that's where condensation tends to collect.
Half hearted “run it” schemes may do a bit of good,. Ski’s suggestion is a good one in addition to what else may be done.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 12:09 PM   #26
Guru
 
Pete Meisinger's Avatar
 
City: Oconto, WI
Vessel Name: Best Alternative
Vessel Model: 36 Albin Aft Cabin
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,087
Then, when you get the engine cleaned of water here are a couple things to have a good marine mechanic take a look at in your bilge:
1) Are the input and output openings on the water lift muffler the same size? (A 2.5 inch input with a 1.5 output could cause extra back pressure and flooding at shutdown)
2) Is there a high enough loop in the exhaust line after the muffler to prevent back flow?
3) The exhaust should be slightly above waterline. Has something changed in your boat to cause it to be submerged? Or might it be submerged if you are fighting a quartering sea?
4) Is the waterlift muffler below the discharge point on the engine? If it is too high you could get back flow.

As the others point out, it could be from cranking without starting but could also be one of the above problems. It very well might be a combination of all the listed suggestions and may never occur again, it might have been a combination of boat trim, waves, etc.

Good Luck, Don't loose a lot of sleep about it. If you can't run the engine on the hard, at least turn it over a few times with a jump pack or spare battery. If the bulk of the contaminated oil has been removed and your engine is not already DEAD, it will probably make it through the winter OK, especially in a heated barn

pete
Pete Meisinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:09 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. RW. I fully agree with Mr. dj. Get that oil out of the genny now. Change the oil and crank it over for as long as you can without damaging the starting system (starting motor/battery cables).



Start looking for another mechanic as well. Milky oil always means water/antifreeze in the oil. That's a no-brainer. Oil analysis? Waste of $$, at this point IMO. Water is water and I know no other cause of milky oil. He should have drained and changed the oil immediately.
Actually, RTF, the mechanic did replace the oil and filter same day as we discovered the cafe oil. And the service manager recommended having the oil tested (at a cost of $99), which I thence ordered. I just don't recall if he started the genny immediately afterward. Maybe he did, but it didn't run for very long.
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:31 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDunn View Post
If you over cranked the engine enough to back water into the engine from the exhaust, you would most likely have hydrolocked the engine and the engine would not crank. It takes very little water coming in an open exhaust valve to hydrolock that cylinder. I think that is a very unlikely way to get water into the oil. The only other ways that you can get water are failed seals on a gear driven raw water pump, a blown head gasket or a failed oil cooler. A bad head gasket would put antifreeze in the oil while a bad seal on a gear driven raw water pump would put salt water into the oil. What a failed oil cooler puts into the oil depends on how it is plumbed. The oil analysis should tell you if you have antifreeze or salt water in the oil.


I second firing that mechanic.
Thanks, TD. As it turns out, the oil analysis report indicates no glycol present, just water (fresh since she's a fresh-water vessel). So, a failed seal on the water pump?
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:38 PM   #29
Guru
 
Cigatoo's Avatar
 
City: Narragansett Bay
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
Thanks, TD. As it turns out, the oil analysis report indicates no glycol present, just water (fresh since she's a fresh-water vessel). So, a failed seal on the water pump?
Bingo! No antifreeze pretty much eliminates a catastrophic engine issue. Clean it out. Replace the seal on the raw water pump. And monitor the situation next year.
Cigatoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:52 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Meisinger View Post
Then, when you get the engine cleaned of water here are a couple things to have a good marine mechanic take a look at in your bilge:
1) Are the input and output openings on the water lift muffler the same size? (A 2.5 inch input with a 1.5 output could cause extra back pressure and flooding at shutdown)
2) Is there a high enough loop in the exhaust line after the muffler to prevent back flow?
3) The exhaust should be slightly above waterline. Has something changed in your boat to cause it to be submerged? Or might it be submerged if you are fighting a quartering sea?
4) Is the waterlift muffler below the discharge point on the engine? If it is too high you could get back flow.

As the others point out, it could be from cranking without starting but could also be one of the above problems. It very well might be a combination of all the listed suggestions and may never occur again, it might have been a combination of boat trim, waves, etc.

Good Luck, Don't loose a lot of sleep about it. If you can't run the engine on the hard, at least turn it over a few times with a jump pack or spare battery. If the bulk of the contaminated oil has been removed and your engine is not already DEAD, it will probably make it through the winter OK, especially in a heated barn

pete
Thanks Pete. All I have to do is find a good trustworthy mechanic.



The flapped exhaust ports are just beneath the water surface at each edge of the transom. And the exhaust pipe rise would seem to be sufficient to keep the water out, at least from the mains.


I don't recall being in any big following sea. But I did ask the guy at Big Chute Marine Railway to ensure that when raising my boat on the sling, that he keep the stern down. He said he tries to maintain a 15 degree down angle, so hopefully that's sufficient.



I also monitored the marine lift operator when he hauled my boat in September. It looked good to these amateur eyes, but perhaps water could have sloshed. But that would have been after the generator was run for the last time.
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:57 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigatoo View Post
Bingo! No antifreeze pretty much eliminates a catastrophic engine issue. Clean it out. Replace the seal on the raw water pump. And monitor the situation next year.

That's good to hear. However, the oil report included the following:

We advise that you check for the source of water entry. Check seals and/or filters for points of contaminant entry. We recommend that you drain the oil from the component if this has not already been done. We advise that you follow the water drain-off procedure for this component. We recommend an early resample to monitor this condition. Please specify the brand, type, and viscosity of the oil on your next sample. Iron ppm levels are abnormal. Cylinder, crank or cam shaft wear is indicated.

Now what? :-(
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:06 PM   #32
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,255
Surprisingly little water is needed to discolor oil. Water sitting on a shut down piston can eventually migrate downwards and foul oil.

All said, pickling the engine as best possible until a full and hopefully prolonged run up can be done is recommended. Once fully operational the ultimate point of water ingress can be determined.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:14 PM   #33
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,622
A. drain the muffler.
B. change the oil and filter a couple of times, running the engine for a bit of time under load.

Based on my shabby memory, I think, if the main or generator does not stop by the 3 try, drain the muffler before trying again.
__________________
The meek will inherit the earth but, the brave will inherit the seas.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:16 PM   #34
Guru
 
Cigatoo's Avatar
 
City: Narragansett Bay
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
That's good to hear. However, the oil report included the following:

We advise that you check for the source of water entry. Check seals and/or filters for points of contaminant entry. We recommend that you drain the oil from the component if this has not already been done. We advise that you follow the water drain-off procedure for this component. We recommend an early resample to monitor this condition. Please specify the brand, type, and viscosity of the oil on your next sample. Iron ppm levels are abnormal. Cylinder, crank or cam shaft wear is indicated.

Now what? :-(
You are overthinking this. Get the old oil out before winter. Monitor it in the spring when you can run the generator as you normally would.
Cigatoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:21 PM   #35
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
Actually, RTF, the mechanic did replace the oil and filter same day as we discovered the cafe oil. And the service manager recommended having the oil tested (at a cost of $99), which I thence ordered. I just don't recall if he started the genny immediately afterward. Maybe he did, but it didn't run for very long.
Ross,
That price for an oil sample seems like its high on mark-up!

I've been very pleased with the service and reports from JG Lubrication Services
The Pres is actually a TF member (hzjcm8) but not a frequent poster. I have used him for boat and motorhome oil analysis and He has been responsive to my info requests. For $100+ you can get a 3 pack of samples and the vacuum pump for pulling samples. (with some labs you pay when sending in the sample where with JGL you buy the sample bottles and the analysis and there is no additional charge when you send the sample in. You will get a report emailed in about a week and they keep a log of tests so you can see any trends.
Happy to share some typical reports - just PM me if interested.
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:32 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigatoo View Post
You are overthinking this. Get the old oil out before winter. Monitor it in the spring when you can run the generator as you normally would.
So, I shouldn't be concerned about the abnormal iron content of the oil sample per the last line of the recommendations? I know the oil was replaced once. Unsure about twice since I wasn't present after the first phase of the job.


I've asked the service manager if the oil was checked again for colour and awaiting his reply. Maybe I'm working myself up too much? :-)
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:34 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
RossWilson's Avatar
 
City: Oakville
Vessel Name: Good Vibrations
Vessel Model: Mainship 34T
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
Ross,
That price for an oil sample seems like its high on mark-up!

I've been very pleased with the service and reports from JG Lubrication Services
The Pres is actually a TF member (hzjcm8) but not a frequent poster. I have used him for boat and motorhome oil analysis and He has been responsive to my info requests. For $100+ you can get a 3 pack of samples and the vacuum pump for pulling samples. (with some labs you pay when sending in the sample where with JGL you buy the sample bottles and the analysis and there is no additional charge when you send the sample in. You will get a report emailed in about a week and they keep a log of tests so you can see any trends.
Happy to share some typical reports - just PM me if interested.
That's $99 Cdn, so about $75 Usd. Regardless, I knew the marina marks it up a bunch. Is your preferred tester in the US and Canada?
__________________
Ross Wilson
Freelance Writer/Author
RossWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:43 PM   #38
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 5,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossWilson View Post
That's $99 Cdn, so about $75 Usd. Regardless, I knew the marina marks it up a bunch. Is your preferred tester in the US and Canada?
Good point - forgot about the conversion.
JGL has 3 labs all in the US. You might get on their website and call or email to see whether there are any issues w/ international samples. Just guessing but a little more postage $ should get a sample to them maybe w/ a longer transit time is all???
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 04:45 PM   #39
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,279
I got a similar issue on my engine last year, it took me 5 oil changes before getting oil back to normal.
Also I would not run the engine during an hour or two if the oil is not clean.

Between each oil change I ran the engine 5 or 10 minutes checked oil and if not clean changed again oil.
When I got the oil clear I did a 2h or 3h run to get oil hot enough to evaporate the remaining trace of water. I was able to see some vapor coming out of the dipstick so even if oil looked clean some moisture was still there.

I did a final oil change and everything has been fine since.

L
Lou_tribal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 06:39 PM   #40
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,946
You don't have a mechanic. You have an oil change guy.
Consider the implications.
__________________

boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
milky oil

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×