Lets talk power upgrades for the Perkins 354

[Mrwesson]

I know it's a taboo subject in most trawler circles but it seems there's reliable power to be had in tractor/tractor pull/truck swap circles.


Why would you want more power?

Some of us have semi displacement hulls like the Mainship which can plane.

I'm personally not that interested in speed but sometimes things happen and you need to get out of the way. The mainship isn't the best open water boat.

Things i've read about.

The perkins is very tough and i've read reports of tractor pull guys running them so hot they are belching fire out of the exhaust 1' high.. That's alot of heat/boost.

If you want to make power you need to monitor temps. Exhaust temp is a good start I think more sensors the better(oil/exhaust/head).

Holset H1c will make a little bit more power at the lower rpm's but as a whole you need to add fuel to make power. I'm probably going to swap one of these whether I decide to add power or not.. @ $300 used its a no brainer for me(i'll keep the other for a backup).

The Cav pump can be turned up for more power on a smaller level(if you just need 20hp or so). This and a holset H1c would probably make most people happy(my plan so far).

Some info below about the Cav pump. I haven't even sifted through it yet but could help some people with rebuilding it/understanding it.
http://www.fujiyachts.net/manuals/CAV%20DPA%20Pump%20Rebuild%20Manual.pdf
This is a quote and not to be used without knowledge/research. I'm not even sure if it's correct USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

Here is a tweaking formula I found for them. If I found a smaller replacement for my boat, I'm tempted to pull all the marine parts and convert back to automotive components. I don't know if its the firing sequence or what but these things really sound good.


3. Using an 8mm wrench, remove the fuel cover plate. Be careful to not tear the rubber gasket behind it. Fuel will pour out of the injection pump until it is empty. Looking inside the injector pump, you will see a thick disc with letters stamped on it, spaced out around the outer edge. You will also see the two bolts that hold it in place.

4.You will need to rotate the engine by hand, in order to access one bolt at a time. Remove the first bolt with an 8mm wrench (they are very tight) and use needle nose pliers to draw the bolt out of the injection pump. DO NOT drop the bolt in the injection pump, or you will have to fish it out with a magnet, and it's very hard to do.
5.Rotate engine by hand to gain access to the other bolt and remove it with an 8mm wrench. You may need to use a small screw driver to hold the thick plate up, so that you can remove the second bolt, as it continues to loosen out.

6. Look up above the thick plate, after it has dropped down the splined shaft, you will see a thin plate with four large slots in it, and two holes for the bolts to go through.
7. Viewed from the top of the injection pump (opposite of driven end) rotate the plate with a screwdriver clockwise. You have to do full turns because the bolt holes in the plate have to line back up.

8. Reinstall bolts one at a time. You will need to use a screwdriver to push up on the bolt, and use needle nose pliers to screw it in at the same time. Tighten one bolt down tight, then turn engine over by hand to access other hole. Reinstall and tighten second bolt.

9. Rotate engine over by hand again, and double check tightness of bolts.

10. Reinstall rubber gasket and fuel cover plate, along with the two 8mm bolts.

11. Using a 16mm wrench, crack all of the injector lines on the top of the injection pump open.

12. Open fuel shut off valve on bottom of fuel tank.

13. Bleed air from injection pump by cranking engine over until fuel shoots out of fittings.

14. Tighten fittings back up and start engine. Enjoy your new found power.

I've read about people getting rid of the Cav pump because it wont flow enough fuel and replacing it with a Stanadyne or Roosamaster injection pump but I haven't got far into that.

I've also read people installing electric fuel pumps to "help" the lift pump which isn't all that great. Smoother power and less smoke but wont make more power.

"open up the exhaust" No idea how this can be done on a boat(or if it can be done) and turn up the Cav pump slightly. Apparently the truck guys say this is good for about 200hp.

Some info here
Hello, On to Perkins 6354 Swap to a Ford 1985 F250 4X4

 

[DavidM]

Boatdiesel has datasheets for Perkins Range 4 6.354TIs up to 275 hp. So you could just add those parts to yours to match that spec. But I have no clue how far that goes, maybe pistons, but certainly an after cooler which will be big bucks.

And I wouldn't count on a 275 hp 6.354 lasting very long. Tractor pull engines don't care about life as they only put out that power for a few seconds.

David

 

[Xsbank]

My engine is rated at 250 hp continuous. If you change the fuel injector pump and change the turbocharger it can be bumped up to 475 (Diamond Series) hp but the rating is not continuous any more. Read Steve D'Antonio for more information. Most boat engines can make more power but they were always sourced from agricultural or trucking or genset duties which emphasize reliability over max power, before they were marinized. There is always some trade-off. Shouldn't you be servicing your head or varnishing or waxing something? You have too much time on your hands! 8^)

 

[Ski in NC]

That engine came from the factory at around 165hp with a turbo, no aftercooler and the CAV pump. Probably could go a little higher than that, kind of modeling after the 6B 210, same displacement, same rpm, same inj pump (basically), and not sure about the turbo.

 

[Lepke]

Exhaust Gas Temperatures have much to do with engine life. Higher temps greatly cut the lifespan of cylinder related components. Engines with turbos (and higher EGTs) have about half the life between overhauls of a non turbo version.
What you propose probably couldn't be cooled with the stock cooling system. You can make your boat go faster, but not for very long. Also your fuel usage could be triple.
Buy a bigger engine that will achieve the speed you want at max continuous rating.

 

[jleonard]

There are many versions of the H1C turbocharger. Many exhaust housings sizes , many compressor impeller sizes.
Do your homework there.
I firmly believe you can crank the stock pump and use the stock injectors and get 50 or 60 more hp assuming you have an intercooler.
Watch your egt

 

[Mrwesson]

Boatdiesel has datasheets for Perkins Range 4 6.354TIs up to 275 hp. So you could just add those parts to yours to match that spec. But I have no clue how far that goes, maybe pistons, but certainly an after cooler which will be big bucks.

And I wouldn't count on a 275 hp 6.354 lasting very long. Tractor pull engines don't care about life as they only put out that power for a few seconds.

David

275 is way more than I would need or want.

When I mentioned tractor pulling I didn't mean that I was aiming to do what they do(make 400hp) but there's good info.

The link I posted was a guy who put a 354 in a pickup truck which is a low stress application.

If I could turn it up safely and get 30hp i'd be happy.

My engine is rated at 250 hp continuous. If you change the fuel injector pump and change the turbocharger it can be bumped up to 475 (Diamond Series) hp but the rating is not continuous any more. Read Steve D'Antonio for more information. Most boat engines can make more power but they were always sourced from agricultural or trucking or genset duties which emphasize reliability over max power, before they were marinized. There is always some trade-off. Shouldn't you be servicing your head or varnishing or waxing something? You have too much time on your hands! 8^)

I have alot of time. The fact that my boat is right on the edge of planing seems to drive me to want just enough to get over the hump for those hairy days.

That engine came from the factory at around 165hp with a turbo, no aftercooler and the CAV pump. Probably could go a little higher than that, kind of modeling after the 6B 210, same displacement, same rpm, same inj pump (basically), and not sure about the turbo.

Id be more than happy with 210hp.

Exhaust Gas Temperatures have much to do with engine life. Higher temps greatly cut the lifespan of cylinder related components. Engines with turbos (and higher EGTs) have about half the life between overhauls of a non turbo version.
What you propose probably couldn't be cooled with the stock cooling system. You can make your boat go faster, but not for very long. Also your fuel usage could be triple.
Buy a bigger engine that will achieve the speed you want at max continuous rating.

My boat runs too cold as is. I see what you're saying and yes chasing 300hp is one thing but adding 30hp to a 5.8 liter diesel?

Buying a bigger engine would be more trouble than its worth and I'd just buy another boat but i'm not doing either.

There are many versions of the H1C turbocharger. Many exhaust housings sizes , many compressor impeller sizes.
Do your homework there.
I firmly believe you can crank the stock pump and use the stock injectors and get 50 or 60 more hp assuming you have an intercooler.
Watch your egt

No intercooler but the cummins 210 doesn't either(nor do other similar setups).

Assuming I have a EGT gauge, keep things within set parameters, and keeping in mind I could always return to "stock" settings..

 

[smitty477]

"I have alot of time. The fact that my boat is right on the edge of planing seems to drive me to want just enough to get over the hump for those hairy days."


I had a 1978 Mainship 34 with the Perkins and found that anything over 8 knots began to use fuel quickly and that around 11 knots you were pushing pretty hard.
At the time I researched more hp/speed options and found out that these boats are really not designed to perform at speeds above 10 knots. I met a few folks who upped the Hp with engines changes and they could barely reach 15 knots with 250+ hp. There were also comments about how squirrely the boat was at anything above 12 knots or so - even with mostly flat seas.
My attention turned to utilizing the 34 as it was and enjoying that boat for its great lower speed attributes until I got a further desire for more speed and changed boats.


I really liked the early 34 Mainship for so many of its abilities , nice boat for sure.

 

[jleonard]

I repowered my 1978 Mainship 1 with a 270 hp Cummins. It could do over 18 knots wide open, cruise all day at 15.5. And it was much more efficient with the bigger power.
The210 Cummins repowered boats can cruise At 12.
12 is seems like the happy place for those hulls.
If you need more info about repowering or bigger powered old mainships send me a private e mail.

And the squirrelly thing happens above 16 knots.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Smitty,
I think I've talked to MS34 owners that claimed more speed and I've had one go by me at (guessing) close to 20. Perhaps they vary a lot in weight? They do have a straight run aft (warped all the way) so they should be capable of more speed.

 

[Jeff F]

Think this is likely a speed record. 300 hp repower.

https://youtu.be/WxwGj2-5SZ4

 

[smitty477]

Smitty,
I think I've talked to MS34 owners that claimed more speed and I've had one go by me at (guessing) close to 20. Perhaps they vary a lot in weight? They do have a straight run aft (warped all the way) so they should be capable of more speed.

Well I did carry things like a genset , dinghy fuel and water on mine and also on the couple of other ones that were here in Long Island sound. They were being cruised but stopped by each year at Northport dock so we got to know a couple of them repowered - one still stops by with a flag blue hull I think he has a 270 in his. The best way to get efficiency with the same hull is to go slower or lighter no real way to make significant gain any other way.

 

[smitty477]

Think this is likely a speed record. 300 hp repower.

https://youtu.be/WxwGj2-5SZ4

Pretty funny - but certainly one of the last boats I would choose to power up in order to go faster.

 

[jleonard]

Mine was a whole new boat thanks to the additional speed. Night and day.

 

[Mrwesson]

Pretty funny - but certainly one of the last boats I would choose to power up in order to go faster.

Kind of that way by design.

Boat did 17mph with the perkins 200(actually says 185).

 

[smitty477]

Apparently there were a number of older TF threads on this issue - here is one with more than a few 34 owners posting their thoughts as well....




http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s11/mainship-34-models-4065.html

 

[Mrwesson]

Going to bump this thread. I'm in the middle of replacing my rusty Holset 3ld with a ebay holset H1C(~$250). These turbochargers are getting good reviews in the cummins world and is ALMOST a direct swap.

1. The oil feed and drain lines are a bit different but mostly the same. The newer turbo has M12x1.5 threads on the inlet(a good thing) which you'll need an adapter for. You can eliminate the flange that's prone to leak(mine was).

2. The exhaust v-band flange is smaller than the 3ld. I cut and welded on a new flange to match my exhaust flange(not the elbow/have a bend to the elbow)and any exhaust shop could do it for you. I would think twice about going direct to the elbow because they are expensive.

3.it will flow more air and increase power. How much? hard to say but from what i've read about 20hp. Not a problem if you're running a 160 or even a 185 but might be pushing it for a 200. In my case i'm just barely planing and if I can then great but if not i'll still be happy. My old turbo developed an exhaust leak which is my reason for the swap.

4. it uses bolts instead of a v-band clamp from the inlet to outlet. No real difference but you might have to take out the bolts to "clock" the turbo to get the inlet/outlet in the right direction.

Some links.

Very good supply of cheap clamps/weld on flanges. Useful to anyone and what I got was high quality. https://www.siliconeintakes.com/?osCsid=b8477e4e56b580db7d7f3c1b488fbb53

The h1c turbo I bought. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Upgrade-Tu...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

And the adapter you may need(get one anyway). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003CGYJ0G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll report back next week after I get her running(new exhaust parts too).

 

[Irish Rambler]

Just a word of warning, don't put too much of a power upgrade or you may get bottom end problems, keep within the engine manufacturers guidelines.
Trim tabs may help you get on the plane along with weight distribution.

 

[Lepke]

Everyone wants to go faster, but there's a price. Besides more fuel, small diesels aren't made for excessive heat. The metal alloys aren't the same as in bigger diesels and the combustion area parts will wear faster. Rings, cylinder and valves especially.

 

[Mrwesson]

keeping an eye on EGT I just don't see how this can be a problem.

It's not like i'm putting 300hp on it or anything.

They didn't make the crank out of pixie dust on the 240hp version.. Yes an aftercooler but assuming EGT are within range....

 

[sunchaser]

Somewhere, sometime, a very smart marine engineer said props move boats. So unless you change props where does the increased speed come from as you increase boost pressure?

 

[BIG CAT]

Fuel settings determine hp. Not boost. Only way you're going to pickup how is if the old turbo was not sized properly and the engine was not making the proper amount of boost.

 

[Mrwesson]

Fuel settings determine hp. Not boost. Only way you're going to pickup how is if the old turbo was not sized properly and the engine was not making the proper amount of boost.

1 turn on the cav pump wont hurt anything.

 

[Steve]

Do you have trim tabs? Maybe a correctly sized set might get you up on plane. A check with other Mainship owners might find out.

 

[sunchaser]

1 turn on the cav pump wont hurt anything.[/QUOTE

No matter how you increase horsepower in that specific engine the boat speed at a given RPM will not change one iota unless you re-prop.

 

[Irish Rambler]

The crank on the turbocharged versions are specially hardened to take the thrust 'cintrided'. and built to do the job assuming there's no excessive bushing wear.
In fact the 6354 and the 4236 share pistons, rings, push rods and cylinders even though for the some strange reason the part numbers are different, just the block is longer with 6 cylinders