Kanzaki trasmission (KME-A) problems

[bogranjac1]

Any recommendations for solutions/solvents/treatments for flushing transmissions ????
For those with experience with Kanzaki transmissions, mine has developed the dreaded 'shudder' or 'hammer' as the RPM is increased through middle range - 1500-2000 then beyond completely disappears.

At first I thought it was the cutless bearing then maybe loose engine mounts or incorrect lubricant. Finally tracked it down to what is called 'varnished' cones in the gears. This is where the mating surfaces of the cones have become coated or clogged and only partial engagement occurs.

Was wondering if FLUSHING the transmission with any particular solution/solvent may assist in ridding this 'varnish' or clogging.

I really do NOT want to remove the transmission and dismantle it if at all possible, although now that I am home from my travels I have an acceptable workshop as a last resort.
regards Brett

links below refer to my problem in detail

J/30 Rhapsody #348: Transmission Disassembly & Clutch Resurface

Kanzaki cone issues... - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

 

[bogranjac1]

Correction.........trans is a KM3-A

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sounds like a clutch chatter problem or cone in your place.

I had a Kanzaki gear on my 3HM35F Yanmar. VERY NOISY. I installed an oil cooler (expensive) that had it's own drive motor. Used numerous high viscosity oils to reduce the noise. I did succeed but it was costly. The oil pump cost $750 and I used the drain plug to route the oil.

I have a possible fix for your "varnish" buildup. It's an additive that has been around since the 50's ... called Risalone. I think the more readily available "SeaFoam" is the same stuff.
When I was very young people would give me old stuck OB engines and I'd free up the rings w Risalone. It's a good cleaner for fuel systems too. So I throw it out here but it is very unlikely to damage the stuff the cone is made of. If your gear is very old it could cause lealing oil where no oil leaked before. I seriously doubt it would but I suggest this as using it in your gear is'nt even tested by me so no sure thing. I'd first talk to a Yanmar rep but if all else failed I personally would put some in the oil and run it. Then if it dos'nt solve the problem I'd just replace the cone or cones. I would be a bit concerned w getting the parts all back together correctly. Find out if special tools are required and if there is a manual.

I do suspect that you may not have a varnish problem though because it would take a long time and considerable heat to bring that about. Do you have any idea how old the gear is? What did the PO use for lube oil? I am sure though that SeaFoam or Risalone will disperse varnish deposits from old oil. I'd change the oil (hot) twice after the SeaFoam or Risalone.

 

[MurrayM]

Thanks for the heads up. So far no issues with our KM4A, but you never know...

 

[bogranjac1]

Manyboats.....Eric,

This is where the bad news starts .....I found the P.O. had ATF in the transmission !!!!
I know it was ATF...it was red and very thin.
As to the age of gear I suspect around the same as the engine- early 80's

When I changed oils in Nimane after buying her I was totally confused by the Yanmar manual as to the correct transfer oil due to different statements etc. Finally I got down and dirty and managed to get my camera in the engine box and take a pic of the plate, and to my horror stamped on the transfer was SAE20/30.
.
I immediately changed the oil to some 20/30 multi grade but had the noise still and didn't know much about where or what was causing it....

Eventually I lifted the inspection hatch in the cabin and observed the shaft rotation. As I applied RPM in gear under load from idle the boat speed increased to a point, then nothing happened, as the RPM increased the shaft did not increase revolutions, then bang bang as I continued to increase RPM, then around 2000 rpm all shudder/clatter/banging ceases and the shaft rotates smoothly and off we go like a scalded cat.

I found an internet site 'bob the oil man' and researched best lube possible........he says I need SAE 30 H.D. MONOGRADE, this may be difficult to obtain as it's an older type and offered that 80W GL4 gear oil would be a close alternative.
Also GL5 is NOT to be used as it may affect the metal the cones are made of.

So Thank you Eric,
I shall attempt to purchase some Risalone or Seafoam in a few changes of SAE 30 HD (I located some,eventually) and hope for the best.
regards Brett

 

[Nomad Willy]

My memory is'nt perfect these days (my mother would say it never was) but I thought ATF was recommended for my Kanzaki gear. Motorcycles and other gear boxes use ATF in non-automatic transmissions. My 1981 Mazda GLC stick shift ran ATF probably to up the MPG numbers when it was new. It's trans worked perfectly when I gave the car to a girlfriend w almost 300K on the clock. ATF is a good light gear oil.

Straight 30W oil is readily available. I use it in one of my cars (Castrol) and always in my boat engine (Delo).

The stuff .. (VI improvers) .. used to create multi-viscosity oil is not good from a lubrication standpoint (it provides no lubrication) so when you can do w/o it it's best not to use it. Like in a boat where you always warm the engine up slowly. Oil is only very slightly better w/o the VI included so it really isn't an "issue". But 10W40 oil may have 5 times as much VI in it as 10W30. And when the viscosity benefits are "worth" the very slight lubrication loss your equipment manufacturer will recommend a MV lubricant. Frequently you'll see manuals recommending both MV and straight weight oils so you know the difference is small. But if you don't live or operate in the desert or arctic MV is not best ..... unless you start your "machine" up cold and run it at normal service. That is why cars and trucks employ MV lubricants. You don't drive around the block for 10 min before getting on the freeway. And if you immediately went to moderately heavy usage w your boat right after startup you should use MV oil too. Like 15W40.

But the ATF has a number of additives like anti-foaming agents that are basic to gear oils. Engine lube oils too but in smaller quantities. But since the multi-vis oils have an additive (MV improvers) that has bulk in the oil there's less oil in the oil. And gears aren't easy to lubricate due to the extreme pressure right where the gears contact and that is may be why Yanmar recommends a straight weight oil .. IMO.

Because of the very high noise level I used several high viscosity lubricants in my Kanzaki gear .. mostly gear oil. I hate to throw this out there but most gear oils for transaxles (I think they call them "hypoid" or similar) are multi-vis. I used some (about 20%) 95W140 mixed w mostly synthetic lubricants ... kinda sorta anything to get the viscosity up. These multi-vis gear oils are for rear ends of road vehicles .. not high speed transmissions. The Kanzaki gear worked fine no matter what I put in it. It was a new gear though. There was less noise w the heavier lube but the thing that finally solved the problem was the gear oil cooler. There wasn't a "problem" when the gears were cold ... only when it had been run for an hour .. and even worse after more time at cruise like half a day. Then there was so much gear noise I was embarrassed pulling into a harbor.

By the way the Risalone may be Risalline .. like Valvoline.

 

[Ski in NC]

One problem with most of these mechanical gears is that the clutch engagement, whether cone or pack, counts on torque being in one direction. By the nature of diesels of few cylinders and the torsional response of things like couplings, shafts, etc, the torque can reverse slightly, the clutch relaxes, then when torque comes on again, must re-engage. This wears things out. Got a few Hurth HBW's and a Kanzaki that suffered the same fate.

If one of these poops, highly recommend a hydraulic gear if one can be readily fitted.

 

[bogranjac1]

MMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm,

Look what I saw when I peered in bell housing.
Now, I am no mechanically trained fellow.
BUT isn't that drive disc around the wrong way on the flywheel ?
That grove that has been grinded into the ally bell housing just bellow the spline and those grinding marks on the flanges that surround and support the springs ???
Wouldn't a novice conclude that there's a major 'stuff-up' here?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Somebody probably installed the wrong damper plate.

When you shop for a new damper plate consider that several different designs that employ rubber, plastic and other material to absorb the torsional vibration (that is considerable with your engine) so finding the best damper plate should involve some research.

I used a damper plate (w my 3 cyl Yanmar) that had wedge shaped white plastic pieces instead of the usual springs. I had good luck w mine but damper plates are a little like anchors now so there may be something better. The type of plate you choose could play a big role in your slow speed and idling vibration. And if you don't want to do shopping just get the right plate w the usual springs.

 

[Ski in NC]

Bogran- Look at the splines on the shaft and see the pattern showing where engagement is. Also take the torsional coupling off and see if there is room inside the flywheel to accomodate the coupling being flipped around. Has to be a good bit of clearance in there for it to mount the other way.

 

[LarryM]

Brett,

The orientation of the drive disk looks correct. I would pull the drive disk and carefully examine it to insure that the hub is not coming loose from the mounting plate. The springs can become loose and these things can come apart. When they fail, you are really stuck.

While it is off, verify the part number and make sure it is the correct one for your particular engine. While your are at it, make sure your transmission model was one of the approved options for your engine. Just because it can be bolted on does not mean it was designed for use your particular diesel.

I only mention this because you have not posted the specifics on your engine, or any of its history.

I highly suspect the drive disk is failing. If it is, you received an early warning and can change it at your leisure!

BTW, I just changed mine last fall at 1,600 hours because of some chatter, the springs were loose from some hard shifting I suppose.

 

[bogranjac1]

Thanks Larry, Ski and Eric for comments,
So I checked the transmission to engine compatibility.
Seems that is 1 of 3 trans Yanmar has for the engine.

Perhaps the centre hub IS coming away from the plate -the rivets holding it to the base plate have taken some abrasion as per photo along with the springs. This would explain the chatter I have always had.

It MAY BE the incorrect drive disc, sure looks like it fits too deep along the output shaft splines. There also is abrasion there on the base of the spline where it disappears into the trans box.
regards Brett

 

[bogranjac1]

Yep, disc damper has been attached facing the wrong way. Found an on-line workshop manual with exploded view of clutch assembly.
Also springs in disc damper are loose - I can easily turn them with my fingers. A new drive disc is needed.
Dis-assembly of trans box is also required to inspect drive cones for wear. I hope just lapping the cones with valve paste to remove 'varnish' will suffice.
Got a bit of work ahead.

 

[LarryM]

Brett,

My apology for my erroneous speculation in my earlier post. You are absolutely correct, the drive disc in your photo is on backwards. I found this photo in a Yanmar GM-Series service manual and it definitely shows the 'flat' side of the drive disc toward the transmission. Also, the KM3A is the only transmission listed for the 3GMD.

Best of luck with your repair!

 

[Canveysteve]

Hiya sorry to awaken a old thread did you solve you gearbox problem ?
As have the same issue with mine
Steve

 

[Nomad Willy]

Canveysteve,
If it’s just noise at idle from the gearbox see my post #6.

 

[AKDoug]

Hmmm.... I have been running Mobil 1 synthetic 15-40 in my transmission (KM4A) for years now, no issues to date. I had a quart of it sitting around I wanted to use, not enough for anything else so into the transmission it went. I change it annually.

I know the manual says to use the same grade oil as the engine uses, but I have been using Delo 400 15-40 win the engine as well. 30W straight grade oil is hard to find up here... I know it causes the oil pressure gauge to read low, but assumed it was otherwise just fine.

I love old threads, there is always something that comes up to pique my interest and learn something from!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Doug I know you have the 55hp JH Yanmar.
Does it have the manual Kansaki gear?
Or one more robust than the lower hp 3cyl engines?

As per my post #6 I had terrible gear noise. I was embarrassed to come into port. It was quiet until it warmed up. Hence the solution (for me) was the cooler and much higher viscosity. Gear noise be gone!

 

[bogranjac1]

Hiya sorry to awaken a old thread did you solve you gearbox problem ?
As have the same issue with mine
Steve

If the question is regarding the shudder and addressed to me - yes I did fix the problem.
I have done over 500 hrs since repair and all is fine.

The root of the trouble is 'varnishing' of the surfaces of 2 cones in the gearbox. These 2 cones must have a mat finish so when they engage there is good contact for the drive. What happens is that over time and INCORRECT oil in g/box the surfaces become 'glazed' and slip.

You need to remove the box dismantle the gears and use some grinding paste on the 2 surfaces of the cones that engage.
Caution- do not go overboard when using the paste - use fine grade and ONLY rotate the cones on each other a max. or 6 complete rotations !!
You only want to clean the surface NOT grind or reseat as in valves.

To do this job yourself you need a gear puller and a vice and bench...that's all.

There is a u tube video kicking about that shows it step by step.

Even a mug mechanic (like me ) can do it.

P.S. Go buy the CORRECT OIL as indicated on the manufacters plate attached to g/box.

Oil I use :- TOTAL 30 SAE MONOGRADE - This is what I use in the gearbox/engine. Also use it in my Toyota Landcruiser truck.
Comes in a nice clean big orange plastic drum - buy it in bulk and save.

Good luck, if you need any other help come back to T.F. as there's a great bunch of guys here loaded with firsthand experience.

 

[AKDoug]

It's manual, and from the survey it's a KM4A. It's pretty quiet overall, once in a while it gets a little noisy at idle (trolling) but if I go out of gear and then back in that usually quiets it down.

The noise is a clicking sound like you can hear the shaft turning over...

 

[Canveysteve]

If the question is regarding the shudder and addressed to me - yes I did fix the problem.
I have done over 500 hrs since repair and all is fine.

The root of the trouble is 'varnishing' of the surfaces of 2 cones in the gearbox. These 2 cones must have a mat finish so when they engage there is good contact for the drive. What happens is that over time and INCORRECT oil in g/box the surfaces become 'glazed' and slip.

You need to remove the box dismantle the gears and use some grinding paste on the 2 surfaces of the cones that engage.
Caution- do not go overboard when using the paste - use fine grade and ONLY rotate the cones on each other a max. or 6 complete rotations !!
You only want to clean the surface NOT grind or reseat as in valves.

To do this job yourself you need a gear puller and a vice and bench...that's all.

There is a u tube video kicking about that shows it step by step.

Even a mug mechanic (like me ) can do it.

P.S. Go buy the CORRECT OIL as indicated on the manufacters plate attached to g/box.

Oil I use :- TOTAL 30 SAE MONOGRADE - This is what I use in the gearbox/engine. Also use it in my Toyota Landcruiser truck.
Comes in a nice clean big orange plastic drum - buy it in bulk and save.

Good luck, if you need any other help come back to T.F. as there's a great bunch of guys here loaded with firsthand experience.

Yes is the same fault i think slips in gear mor throttle it drops in with a big wake from the prop, mine is in a 55ft canal boat will pull the box out hopefully today will be pulling the engine soon aswell as blow by is awfull but hasn't been run for over 7years !

Thanks for all the replys as had put the prob on a few forums with 0 response !