Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-21-2018, 05:19 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
City: Waitamata
Vessel Name: Karinya
Vessel Model: Pelin
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 135
If the hydraulic pump is belt driven maybe you could change the pulley ratio so that the pump revolutions are the same as your 800 rpm engine rpm at your preferred 600 rpm idle speed.
__________________
Advertisement

BeeJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 07:54 AM   #22
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
It’s mounted right off the engine flywheel with an electronic clutch so I think I’ll have to first see if 800 works for windy docking then perhaps upgrade the pump if needed.
__________________

__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 08:46 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
TomandJeri's Avatar
 
City: Lake Ontario
Vessel Model: Trawler Shopping 35-40'
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 107
Check the lines to see if there's a flow control in there somewhere, including in a directional valve manifold. It's possible one was installed to limit the motor speed by diverting some portion of flow to the return (assuming open loop) if operated at a higher pump speed than intended. Assuming the directional valve is solenoid operated, that's one place where one could be incorporated easily, along with a relief valve. If there is such a flow control, a larger pump won't do much good if it spills the excess to tank unless you increase the setting, which may overspeed the motor. Lotta 'ifs'.
TomandJeri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 08:49 AM   #24
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
Ill take a look, I traced the lines a while ago and they are pretty simple:
Tank to pump
Pump to solenoid pack (out to motor)
Return to tank via filter located right before the tank.
__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 09:24 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
TomandJeri's Avatar
 
City: Lake Ontario
Vessel Model: Trawler Shopping 35-40'
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurc View Post
Pump to solenoid pack (out to motor)
I would expect to find, at the very least, a relief valve in that manifold. Possibly a flow control, too, as it's super easy to incorporate all that into a small manifold, especially since the return also passes through that manifold. Look for one or two allen keyed or slotted screws with locknuts. Though it's also possible the relief, if it's there (and it should be), is not adjustable, in which case it might just look like a hex plug.
TomandJeri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 07:59 PM   #26
Guru
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 540
This is a Commercial Intertech gear pump. (now Parker Hannifin) there are no adjustments on the pump. You said the pressure line goes to a manifold with a solenoid valve. Can you post a photo of the manifold? it is possible there is a flow control in the manifold. Also, how is the pump being driven? Belts and pulleys?
This pump has a 2.25" wide gear inside. the largest gear available in this frame size pump is 2.5". Even upgrading to that gear is not going to give you what you need as it would only give you an additional 12-13% of speed not the 30% your trying to get. If your drive is belt and pulleys you can increase the pulley to give you 30% more speed to the pump. Let me know the pulley diameter on the pump and the drive.
The other option is changing the frame size of pump. You could take your pump to Hydraulic Repair and Design in Kent WA, And tell them you need a pump with 30% more capacity and with the same mounting, shaft and ports. Also, you will need to tell them what rotation your pump is turning as it is a bi-rotational pump. The easiest way to do this is mark your ports as to which on goes to the tank and which goes to the valve. Also let them know how much space you have all around the pump so that they don't build you a pump that is too large physically to fit in your available space. The next frame size up from your P50 pump is the P75 and its a lot larger physically.
good luck,
John
johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2018, 05:34 AM   #27
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 21,962
You might also want to look for a fitting or valve that is undersized , reducing the flow.


Sometimes folks will "fix it" with what is on hand not what is correct.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2018, 08:41 AM   #28
Guru
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 643
Arthur, it looks like an old working hydraulic system migrated to a new engine and now seems to no longer work. Any other changes made? Was this pump spec’d by naiad to also run a bow thruster, perhaps an hydraulic windlass as well? If so what rpm gives max flow? You probably just need to increase your engine rpm to use these devices, pretty simple really because you won’t be using propulsion when hauling an anchor or moving your boat side ways. FWIW our pump maxes out around 1800 rpm. I’ve only needed that kind of flow for the thruster a few times. For the windlass I like at least 1200 because it makes the rode retrieval much faster. You should be able to achieve this with your controls by holding the “take command button” and advancing the lever out of the neutral detent to any rpm you choose.
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 04:03 AM   #29
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnma View Post
This is a Commercial Intertech gear pump. (now Parker Hannifin) there are no adjustments on the pump. You said the pressure line goes to a manifold with a solenoid valve. Can you post a photo of the manifold? it is possible there is a flow control in the manifold. Also, how is the pump being driven? Belts and pulleys?
This pump has a 2.25" wide gear inside. the largest gear available in this frame size pump is 2.5". Even upgrading to that gear is not going to give you what you need as it would only give you an additional 12-13% of speed not the 30% your trying to get. If your drive is belt and pulleys you can increase the pulley to give you 30% more speed to the pump. Let me know the pulley diameter on the pump and the drive.
The other option is changing the frame size of pump. You could take your pump to Hydraulic Repair and Design in Kent WA, And tell them you need a pump with 30% more capacity and with the same mounting, shaft and ports. Also, you will need to tell them what rotation your pump is turning as it is a bi-rotational pump. The easiest way to do this is mark your ports as to which on goes to the tank and which goes to the valve. Also let them know how much space you have all around the pump so that they don't build you a pump that is too large physically to fit in your available space. The next frame size up from your P50 pump is the P75 and its a lot larger physically.
good luck,
John
Thanks for the details! I’ll post a picture of the solenoids/controls next time I’m at the boat. I’m actually wondering if 13% more would be enough as I now have my rpm bumped up to 775 at high idle and an extra 75 would put me in the 850 range where I really noticed the boost in power. At 600 she is fine on a normal day but in a really strong x wind I don’t know if she would have the power to overcome my large bow/windage...
Pump is on a brand new JD engine, direct mounted via a electronic clutch so no way to change the drive ratio.
__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 06:10 AM   #30
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,549
Are the clutch and PTO on the transmission, or on the engine? I'm guessing it's on the transmission?
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 07:58 AM   #31
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
It’s on the engine side, the naiad stabilized pump is off the transmission.
__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 10:47 AM   #32
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurc View Post
It’s on the engine side, the naiad stabilized pump is off the transmission.

Wow, and it has a clutch? Never seen that before. I've seen clutches off the gear, and off a large front mount PTO that coupled to the crank shaft. But never off one of the aux PTO pads.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 08:42 AM   #33
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
Here is the control pack that’s mounted right near the actual Thruster.
Attached Thumbnails
758AC87B-4C87-47BA-916E-538EA24D9660.jpg  
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 09:13 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
TomandJeri's Avatar
 
City: Lake Ontario
Vessel Model: Trawler Shopping 35-40'
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 107
That sandwich plate under the directional valve appears to have flow control valves with free return checks, which limit the flow rate to the motor but the checks allow bypass of the restriction from the motor, in each direction. Since the flow is being restricted without redirecting to the tank line, there must be a relief valve that's bypassed when less than full flow is directed to the motor, and that's probably that valve that's hiding under the flow limit plate, on the right under the hoses. But it looks like it's on the return side, not the pressure side, since there is a gauge on what I presume is the pressure side. Need more closeups from different angles to be sure.

But you may be able to open the flow up with those flow controls, assuming it's choked down to start with. And it would be helpful to know what the max intermittent design flow rate for the motor is, since you don't want to overspeed it.
TomandJeri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:23 PM   #35
Guru
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 540
Don't make any adjustments to the valve. the flow controls on there are just to dampen how fast the valve shifts to remove shock from the system. There is another tag on the valve down near the hoses. Can you take a photo of that tag so I can see what the flow capacity is for the valve.
Also, how is the pump being driven? Belts and pulleys? If we can determine how fast the pump is turning I can determine the flow.
John
johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:28 PM   #36
Guru
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 540
Also, so far there is no photo of the relief valve. there has to be one between the pump and the Vickers valve that is shown. BTW prior to retiring last year I was the senior tech manager for Transaxle LLC. They are the Eaton Vickers distributor and warranty center for New England and the mid Atlantic so I'm very familiar with these products.
John
johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 05:16 PM   #37
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
Thank you John! I’ll do some more discovery this weekend and take the photos. The pump is driven directly off the engine via an electronic clutch so operates at 600rpm.
__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 05:18 PM   #38
Guru
 
Arthurc's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Sea Bear
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Wow, and it has a clutch? Never seen that before. I've seen clutches off the gear, and off a large front mount PTO that coupled to the crank shaft. But never off one of the aux PTO pads.
It’s off the front, likely directly mounted to the crank shaft, my stabilizers are off the standard pto pad.
__________________

__________________
Kadey-Krogen 54
Arthurc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×