Hybrid electric drive

[Cottontop]

A properly designed and installed driveline with low noise and vibration as a priority, a properly designed and installed insulation system and a top shelf exhaust system can be had for a lot less complexity and a lot less energy management fussing than what you describe. You will need that for your generator too, if you want less "noise, vibration and fumes"

At canal speeds I would bet a properly engineered conventional drive boat with noise and vibration reduction as a priority would be just as quite as a Greenline, or whatever was cobbled together, with no fumes either. Your "noise, vibration and fumes" issues are inflated when a proper system is the standard.:

So how big a problem is hour-after-hour, day-after-day low-speed operation of diesel engines (glazing, etc.)?

There seems to be much concern about this, but lots of boats seem to do it.

I still need decent sized engines for coastal cruising.

 

[Cottontop]

A properly designed and installed driveline with low noise and vibration as a priority, a properly designed and installed insulation system and a top shelf exhaust system can be had for a lot less complexity and a lot less energy management fussing than what you describe. You will need that for your generator too, if you want less "noise, vibration and fumes"

At canal speeds I would bet a properly engineered conventional drive boat with noise and vibration reduction as a priority would be just as quite as a Greenline, or whatever was cobbled together, with no fumes either. Your "noise, vibration and fumes" issues are inflated when a proper system is the standard.

I've been watching this emerging technology for years. I have been party to several hybrid projects, supplied components and advice, and except for a narrow range of missions there are added complexity issues, reliability questions due to the additional complexity, and cost / benefit concerns.

At the last Hybrid / propulsion show there was a case study of a harbor tug, comparison of conventional vs hybrid. Mission was close to being in the current hybrid technology envelope to be viable, until the batteries needed to be replaced. Then the cost benefit went way out the window.

There's religion, and then there engineering, IMHO, not ready for prime time, but by all means have at it and move the learning curve forward

No generator, by the way. The engine-motor combination does that, so one bit of complexity eliminated.

 

[Keysdisease]

So this is your propulsion system:

The STEYR HDS - Hybrid Drive System - Steyr Motors

No generator, by the way. The engine-motor combination does that, so one bit of complexity eliminated.

 

[ksanders]

So how big a problem is hour-after-hour, day-after-day low-speed operation of diesel engines (glazing, etc.)?

There seems to be much concern about this, but lots of boats seem to do it.

I still need decent sized engines for coastal cruising.

Zero problem for many or even most boats and engines in a SD hull.
Absolutly zero problem in a FD boat.

I've been reading your posts and in my honest opinion you are looking for a solution to problems that do not really exist.

Most of the people responding to you have boats that are designed to operate at slow speeds. They manuver just fine, the engines last almost forever, and the diesel smells are either nonexistant or so minimal as to not create problems for anyone.

My suggestion is to think of the end goal...cruising. Pick a boat you like, and go cruising.

If you want to re-invent the wheel or solve problems that don't exist, I suppose thats fine, but for me, i just want to enjoy my boat for what it is, a boat.

 

[Cottontop]

So this is your propulsion system:

The STEYR HDS - Hybrid Drive System - Steyr Motors

I believe Steyr has stopped offering its hybrid system. Too many problems, not enough market, I don't know.

But Greenline is doing the same thing, using Volvo engines. They seem to have sold quite a few boats.

 

[Delfin]

We have 14.4 kw of LiFePO4 batteries. At anchor these last us for almost 2 days before we need to re-charge. Starting the genset, I make two days worth of water, do a load of clothes, and if I am lucky have the Admiral bake something really nice. And in that time, I am re-charging batteries for another two days worth of usage. Dock hopping, we wouldn't need this capacity but cruising where we do it is very nice.

At 1200 rpm, we're burning a little over 2.5 gallons of diesel an hour and running at around 6.5 knots. At that speed, there is no wake and almost no sound that isn't blanked out by the sound of wind and water. And, I can do that for about 7,000 miles before I need to buy diesel. Maneuvering? Since I can turn the vessel in her own length this has never been a problem.

As Cottontop said, different courses for different horses but for the kind of cruising most of us do, hybrid power is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Cottontop]

We have 14.4 kw of LiFePO4 batteries. At anchor these last us for almost 2 days before we need to re-charge. Starting the genset, I make two days worth of water, do a load of clothes, and if I am lucky have the Admiral bake something really nice. And in that time, I am re-charging batteries for another two days worth of usage. Dock hopping, we wouldn't need this capacity but cruising where we do it is very nice.

At 1200 rpm, we're burning a little over 2.5 gallons of diesel an hour and running at around 6.5 knots. At that speed, there is no wake and almost no sound that isn't blanked out by the sound of wind and water. And, I can do that for about 7,000 miles before I need to buy diesel. Maneuvering? Since I can turn the vessel in her own length this has never been a problem.

As Cottontop said, different courses for different horses but for the kind of cruising most of us do, hybrid power is a solution looking for a problem.

I, too, want a large LiFePO4 bank for house loads. How to charge? One way is with an independent diesel generator. Another way is with a big generator hung off the propulsion engine. Well, once you do that, you're 95% of the way to electric propulsion. The cost difference between an independent generator and main engine driven generators is small, only a few percent of the cost of the boat. And the electric propulsion is worth something to me, but not if it introduces more headaches than an independent generator.

 

[diver dave]

Understand all the risks. Putting out battery fires, like liquid fuel fires, is non-trivial.

The car was charging its LiFePO4 bank.
ref: http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/bvsorguk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825

 

[FF]

"There seems to be much concern about this, but lots of boats seem to do it.

I still need decent sized engines for coastal cruising."

That's why the CPP was invented.

Not very expensibe on a new build , difficult at best as a refit.

 

[High Wire]

...but all it has to do is spin the props...

Understatement of the year! If all you want is 2 or 3 knots and lots of headaches, good luck.
Are there really that many Chevy Volts laying around in junkyards?

 

[TowLou]

Understand all the risks. Putting out battery fires, like liquid fuel fires, is non-trivial.

The car was charging its LiFePO4 bank.
ref: http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/bvsorguk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825

If you read the forum tho that vehicle has beem modified. Not OEM. Not electric from the beginning. One thing to do on a boat alot less electronic syatems to mess with you then to modify a gas car into a electric one.

Of all the years towing in North Jersey if a stock hybrid was dangerous I would guarantee I'd pick atleast 3 up through the years.

Anyone have the room or consider for a forklift battery 36V wet cells and drive motor out of one? Used to work on them parts are out there a lot more.

 

[Cottontop]

"There seems to be much concern about this, but lots of boats seem to do it.

I still need decent sized engines for coastal cruising."

That's why the CPP was invented.

Not very expensibe on a new build , difficult at best as a refit.

Tried to read about CPPs. Over my head.

 

[diver dave]

If you read the forum tho that vehicle has beem modified. Not OEM. Not electric from the beginning. One thing to do on a boat alot less electronic syatems to mess with you then to modify a gas car into a electric one.

Of all the years towing in North Jersey if a stock hybrid was dangerous I would guarantee I'd pick atleast 3 up through the years.

Anyone have the room or consider for a forklift battery 36V wet cells and drive motor out of one? Used to work on them parts are out there a lot more.

Overwhelming % of hybrid batteries on the road are NiMH, far more stable. Rather why Tesla, a lithium user, is being watched carefully.
https://electrek.co/2017/03/31/tesla-model-s-fire-manchester-crash/

It appears most of the Tesla battery fires have been caused by foreign object impact/crash damage.

 

[Cottontop]

Overwhelming % of hybrid batteries on the road are NiMH, far more stable. Rather why Tesla, a lithium user, is being watched carefully.
https://electrek.co/2017/03/31/tesla-model-s-fire-manchester-crash/

It appears most of the Tesla battery fires have been caused by foreign object impact/crash damage.

While early hybrids used NiMH, and some still do, the big six, including Tesla models, Chevy Volt and Bolt, Prius and Leaf, which together dwarf other electric car producers combined, are all lithium.

And electric cars (either pure or hybrid) are catching on fire at a much lower rate than traditional vehicles.

 

[Cottontop]

I note that the Expectations vs. Reality thread currently running is largely about noise and how to reduce it.

 

[sunchaser]

On this subject, there are three people who have a public record citing their CVs and related experience. Nigel Calder, Reuben Trane and our own Twisted Tree. When they speak, I listen.

As cited earlier, PMM magazine had recent related articles. Nigel Calder presented a very comprehensive one. Pull it up if so inclined. Points raised on this thread may well be laid to rest.

Cotton top, just curious, what cruising grounds do you plan to travel?

 

[ksanders]

I note that the Expectations vs. Reality thread currently running is largely about noise and how to reduce it.

That thread is discussing noise of SD boats while up on plane.

My boat is noisy too... if I ramp up all 660 horsepower.

But just putting along, something a hybrid boat will only do btw, its very quiet.

Have you ever been in a trawler style boat at cruise speeds? Have you ever tried to manuver At slow speeds? Lots of us here do that all the time, without issues.

My advice remains. Get on an actual boat and try it out. Reciprocating engines are not so bad. Lots of us have them.

 

[diver dave]

While early hybrids used NiMH, and some still do, the big six, including Tesla models, Chevy Volt and Bolt, Prius and Leaf, which together dwarf other electric car producers combined, are all lithium.

And electric cars (either pure or hybrid) are catching on fire at a much lower rate than traditional vehicles.

Just the Prius has 48% market share of hybrids, and they are not lithium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States

Reference on rate of fires?

 

[Delfin]

If you read the forum tho that vehicle has beem modified. Not OEM. Not electric from the beginning. One thing to do on a boat alot less electronic syatems to mess with you then to modify a gas car into a electric one.

Of all the years towing in North Jersey if a stock hybrid was dangerous I would guarantee I'd pick atleast 3 up through the years.

Anyone have the room or consider for a forklift battery 36V wet cells and drive motor out of one? Used to work on them parts are out there a lot more.

The OP also indicated that he starting charging at -5 degrees C.

 

[diver dave]

The OP also indicated that he starting charging at -5 degrees C.

Yes, cold and hot are both issues for Li-ion charging. Once, I found myself testing Li-ion for the USN and USMC sample batteries to support an order of some 100k battery packs. Had to charge in desert battlefield conditions and Afgan high elevations. The marines didn't care so much about fire, but did care about rate of charge. Unfortunately for them the USN did care about fires, due in part from some bad torpedo events.. USN wrote the checks.

 

[Cottontop]

On this subject, there are three people who have a public record citing their CVs and related experience. Nigel Calder, Reuben Trane and our own Twisted Tree. When they speak, I listen.

As cited earlier, PMM magazine had recent related articles. Nigel Calder presented a very comprehensive one. Pull it up if so inclined. Points raised on this thread may well be laid to rest.

Cotton top, just curious, what cruising grounds do you plan to travel?

European canals (lots of 10 kpg speed limits) and the US great loop.

I have spoken to Calder.

 

[Cottontop]

Just the Prius has 48% market share of hybrids, and they are not lithium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States

Reference on rate of fires?

I thought Prius had completely shifted to lithium, but they have not. The Prius 2 is lithium.

There are about 300 million vehicles in the US. According to your site, more than 4 million are hybrids. According to the NFPA, there about 170,000 vehicle fires each year, so if the rates were the same, there should be more than 2,000 hybrid fires per year. According to Elon Musk, who is not unbiased, the actual rate of electric vehicle fires is 20% of traditional.

And, as has been pointed out on this thread, which has more stored energy, a tank of fuel, or a battery pack?