Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2022, 03:56 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
markpj23's Avatar
 
City: Bradenton FL
Vessel Name: Deja Blu
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 62
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 165
Help With Oil Analysis

So we just competed the engine survey on our (hopefully) soon to be new boat, a Marine Trader Med Yachts 62. Has J&T 6-71 TIBs 435 HP.


Oil analysis all came back 'good' but I noticed a REAL difference in the port transmission sample as compared to STBD. Specifically, the fine particles counts and the metals indications.


I've asked the surveyor to explain / comment but have not heard from him yet.



Hoping that some of you oil & engine gurus might take a look and advise if I should be concerned? I've posted the engine samples also.



Many thanks in advance....
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PORT.Transmission.OilReport.pdf (118.8 KB, 60 views)
File Type: pdf STBD.Transmission.OilReport.pdf (118.8 KB, 40 views)
File Type: pdf PORT.Engine.OilReport.pdf (118.7 KB, 21 views)
File Type: pdf STBD.Engine.OilReport.pdf (118.8 KB, 17 views)
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2022, 04:39 PM   #2
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,050
First question would be if the oils in the 2 transmissions were changes at the same time? If they're vastly different hours on the two, that could be part of the difference. Copper I believe can also be clutch plate wear. The lead would be a concern as I believe that's relative to bearings. Sodium is also one to watch as a significantly elevated level can indicate a transmission cooler going bad (Sodium as in salt from saltwater).

For oil analysis to be more helpful, you need to see a number of tests over time (trends) with known intervals and oil changes.

I would change all oils to establish a baseline and reanalysis the transmissions after 100 or 200 hours. Personally I prefer Blackstone for oil analysis as it's easier to compare multiple samples of the same engine or transmission. Also, they're very receptive to calls about their testing if you have concerns.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2022, 04:42 PM   #3
TF Site Team
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 16,289
When we bought a previous boat some of the analysis numbers looked out of line. But like Ted said it was one sample and I didnít have a history to compare it to. So we bought the boat anyway and never had any issues with it as far as engines and transmissions.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2022, 05:05 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Barking Sands's Avatar
 
City: NEW PORT RICHEY
Vessel Name: M/V Intrigue
Vessel Model: 1985 Tung Hwa Senator
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 375
Any past history on oil/fluid changes or samples available? Without knowing the last fluid changes its tough to know or extrapolate.

If you are moving forward with purchasing this boat, once it is in your possession I would change the oil/fluid in everything that will be sampled at one time. Operate for some number of hours whether it be 100 or some other number, then carefully take new samples and send out again. If they are all acceptable I would then make these my baseline samples. All future comparison would be measured against this and monitored for change. Keep in mind if the previous owner did not change fluids at regular intervals, or out of phase intervals...the sample after the sample described above could actually come back lower yet again. If that happens use the latest best sample as the baseline.
Barking Sands is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2022, 10:00 PM   #5
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,200
The oil analysis states that both oils had 25 hours of use. The analysis also states that the elevated copper appears to be leaching from the heat exchanger. My guess is the port heat exchanger failed and was replaced. It now appears to be time to replace the starboard heat exchanger.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 07:13 AM   #6
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
The oil analysis states that both oils had 25 hours of use. The analysis also states that the elevated copper appears to be leaching from the heat exchanger. My guess is the port heat exchanger failed and was replaced. It now appears to be time to replace the starboard heat exchanger.
I would need to verify the hours on the oil. Not sure I believe a surveyor pulled all the oil samples, researched the oil hours and sent them off for analysis. Also, were those engine oil hours or transmission oil hours? Could see the engine oil changes logged, but most people do multiple engine oil changes for each transmission oil change. 25 seems a nice easy number for someone to pick. 27 seems more like someone actually researched it. Amazing how both engines have the exact same hours (to the tenth) on the oils for both the engine and transmission. Also seems like a lot of lead for 25 hours.


Finally, it would seem like a fair amount of wear metal for only 25 hours on each engine. Where I'm going with this is that I don't think the 25 hours on the oils is real. While the wear metals in the one transmission are concerning and it may be time to change that transmission cooler, interpreting wear metals usually requires absolutely knowing real engine oil hour numbers and use patterns.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 09:41 AM   #7
Guru
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 2,877
Total engine hours are same used for trans hours. All 4 are shown as 25 in use.
I would change the port cooler and trans oil. Also check condition of zincs if any
__________________
SteveK AKA Soo Valley
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Soo-Valley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 10:04 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
markpj23's Avatar
 
City: Bradenton FL
Vessel Name: Deja Blu
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 62
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 165
Thanks for the replies.


Seller reported the hours since last oil change, so that was the basis. Reportedly all components had oil changed at the same time.


Interesting that the seller says the port transmission oil cooler was replaced about a year ago, and that is the one leaching copper. Is that significant or normal for a 'new' cooler?
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 10:51 AM   #9
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpj23 View Post
Interesting that the seller says the port transmission oil cooler was replaced about a year ago, and that is the one leaching copper. Is that significant or normal for a 'new' cooler?
I don't know about leaching. Maybe some manufacturering dust /granules? If it was lead soldered, maybe that explains the high lead content?

It's difficult to interpret wear metals on low hour oil. When an oil change is done, not all of the oil comes out. If the engine wasn't run quite a long time there may be residue in the pan. When new oil is added, the wear metals may be higher as the new oil may pick up the residue.

A final thought, if sampling through the dipstick, the sample tube may have gone to the bottom of the transmission and picked up some old residue. This is why I oil sample and change oil after long runs. Residue should be thoroughly suspended in the oil for both sampling consistency and removal with oil change.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 11:07 AM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,606
I had a bit higher than my usual copper in my last oil samples...and research revealed copper leaching is typical in marine engines.

Also had a bit higher in iron.

Both can be explained by the engines sitting longer than normal and oil samples taken at vastly different oil sample frequency according to my research.

But that's for an engine, not a tranny.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 01:10 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Slowmo's Avatar
 
City: Lafayette, CA
Vessel Name: Esprit
Vessel Model: 40' Tollycraft tricabin diesel
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 361
The analysis indicates different lubricant formulations are in the two transmissions. No brand or hours are provided. This combined with vastly different wear metals suggests strongly that the starboard transmission has had much more recent oil change. Without knowing operational hours it is difficult to interpret the wear metals analysis. The Ca and Mg levels clearly give away that the formulations are different. These are the detergent package, these don't go away with time. The additive metals have some hallmarks of Chevron Oronite additive technology. This could suggest Chevron Delo but of different ages. However as Oronite sells to many oil marketers around the world the lubricant brand could be another...though in the US I'd lean to Chevron Delo.
Slowmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 01:49 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Island Cessna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 279
I donít know what material is used for clutch disk facing in these Capital gears. Some oil flooded clutches use paper-like fiber material, but some use sintered soft metal. If the latter I would add clutch disk wear to the list of possible sources. The elevated fine particles would point to wear rather than cooler metal corrosion.

Does this gear perhaps have a trolling valve? If so clutch slippage and associated wear may be normal. If it has a trolling valve an external oil filter is often installed, and overlooked when servicing.
Island Cessna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 01:51 PM   #13
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,943
Copper leaching can be higher from many causes including new.

I have attached an article below about high copper in oil.

I remember also someone here wrote that they were having high copper problems, warnings. The post was fairly recent. He finally figured out it was caused by his oil changing system which used brass/bronze gears which have high parts of copper in their construction.

Some systems use brass/bronze gears and some use a rubber impellor.

I do not remember who it was and of course I did not bookmark the thread.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Copper in Oil F21441.pdf (156.2 KB, 13 views)
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 02:28 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by C lectric View Post
Copper leaching can be higher from many causes including new.

I have attached an article below about high copper in oil.

I remember also someone here wrote that they were having high copper problems, warnings. The post was fairly recent. He finally figured out it was caused by his oil changing system which used brass/bronze gears which have high parts of copper in their construction.

Some systems use brass/bronze gears and some use a rubber impellor.

I do not remember who it was and of course I did not bookmark the thread.
That was one of the articles I read in my research... The avearges chart sure made me relax a bit more.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2022, 02:51 PM   #15
Guru
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowmo View Post
The analysis indicates different lubricant formulations are in the two transmissions. No brand or hours are provided. This combined with vastly different wear metals suggests strongly that the starboard transmission has had much more recent oil change. Without knowing operational hours it is difficult to interpret the wear metals analysis. The Ca and Mg levels clearly give away that the formulations are different. These are the detergent package, these don't go away with time. The additive metals have some hallmarks of Chevron Oronite additive technology. This could suggest Chevron Delo but of different ages. However as Oronite sells to many oil marketers around the world the lubricant brand could be another...though in the US I'd lean to Chevron Delo.
Are you saying two types? Like ATF, gear, engine oils different.

another possibility to consider is that the samples were mislabeled and reversed.
I actually found that after purchase and doing my own tests. The OP says port has a new cooler which suggests the starboard cooler needs to be changed. OR the port cooler was changed but not the oil before the tests.
__________________
SteveK AKA Soo Valley
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Soo-Valley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2022, 09:31 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
markpj23's Avatar
 
City: Bradenton FL
Vessel Name: Deja Blu
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 62
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Cessna View Post
I donít know what material is used for clutch disk facing in these Capital gears. Some oil flooded clutches use paper-like fiber material, but some use sintered soft metal. If the latter I would add clutch disk wear to the list of possible sources. The elevated fine particles would point to wear rather than cooler metal corrosion.

Does this gear perhaps have a trolling valve? If so clutch slippage and associated wear may be normal. If it has a trolling valve an external oil filter is often installed, and overlooked when servicing.

No trolling valve. Interesting to note that while in neutral at idle, the port shaft would spin at (estimated) about 5 rpm while the stbd shaft was stopped. Engine surveyor said that was nothing to worry about.


Just more port transmission questions though in my mind...
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2022, 09:38 AM   #17
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,606
What type of stuffing box?

Traditional would mean one is tighter than the other.... could also be a touch of misalignment or cutlesd bearings.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2022, 09:55 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
markpj23's Avatar
 
City: Bradenton FL
Vessel Name: Deja Blu
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 62
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
What type of stuffing box?

Traditional would mean one is tighter than the other.... could also be a touch of misalignment or cutlesd bearings.

Dripless seals. Cutless bearings redone about 3 years ago and are tight.
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2022, 01:17 PM   #19
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,606
Still doesn't mean there is a serious issue that one shaft turns more freely.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2022, 03:52 PM   #20
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Still doesn't mean there is a serious issue that one shaft turns more freely.
I had a Chris Craft single inboard that the shaft turned at start up when the oil was cold. Even with a new cutlass and tight packing it still turned a little.
Sometimes all the stars line up.
__________________
Jay Leonard

New Port Richey,Fl
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012