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Old 04-02-2020, 09:22 AM   #61
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I am anxiously awaiting the results of your efforts. I wish I could be joining you by trying all of these suggestions on my boat (at least the ones that I haven't already tried). Alas, my boat is in AK and I'm in WA with no idea when I might be able to get up there (sigh).

My gut feeling is it is injector pump/fuel related. I'm not familiar enough with the inside workings of the pump to really diagnose. I wonder how much work it would be to swap over the pumps with each other? It would seem that bad valve lash, bad head torques and bad compression would have to be really bad to keep it from starting-bad enough that it would not run well when it did start and show other signs of the problem when running. This doesn't seem to be the case with our engines, but I'm willing to listen to criticism of my reasoning.

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Old 04-02-2020, 09:28 AM   #62
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With the engine 24 hours cold , I would give a quick squirt of starting fluid, to see the results.
He has done that and it started.

Engine difficult to start cold, cold start button does not stay engaged.

With two engines, one that works, I would swap over working parts to fast track a resolution. There is no point looking for another potential problem while ignoring a known problem.

Have someone operate cold start on working engine while watching at engine to see what happens, what moves, what changes. then repeat other engine to see what is not working the same.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:24 AM   #63
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Believe me I know how frustrating this is. My suggestion is to start over. I've read all you have done. Do it again, 1 thing at a time. Double check everything that was done to be sure it was done right. At least you can compare some things to the other engine.
Start with the basics. A diesel needs fuel, air, and compression.
Is the shutoff mechanism working properly ?
Is it cranking fast enough ? I know it has new batteries. Being rebuilt it might have more resistance and cranking slower.
Air filter ?
A compression test will rule out valves or rings. I know it was rebuilt.
Disconnect the fuel line right b-4 the injection pump. Crank and look for flow and submerge it in some diesel and look for bubbles. I like the idea of the electric pump directly to the injector pump to bypass the filters and lift pump temporarily.
Double check the pump timing and bleed everything again.
Look closely at everything and confirm that it's right. I've read most problems with a diesel are fuel related but get the basics right first. Eliminate things.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:30 AM   #64
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As has been said multiple times, if the cold start button does not work, fix it first and see what happens. Don’t look past the obvious.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:53 AM   #65
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Believe me I know how frustrating this is. My suggestion is to start over. I've read all you have done. Do it again, 1 thing at a time. Double check everything that was done to be sure it was done right. At least you can compare some things to the other engine.
Start with the basics. A diesel needs fuel, air, and compression.
Is the shutoff mechanism working properly ?
Is it cranking fast enough ? I know it has new batteries. Being rebuilt it might have more resistance and cranking slower.
Air filter ?
A compression test will rule out valves or rings. I know it was rebuilt.
Disconnect the fuel line right b-4 the injection pump. Crank and look for flow and submerge it in some diesel and look for bubbles. I like the idea of the electric pump directly to the injector pump to bypass the filters and lift pump temporarily.
Double check the pump timing and bleed everything again.
Look closely at everything and confirm that it's right. I've read most problems with a diesel are fuel related but get the basics right first. Eliminate things.
Why do you ignore the non function cold start button?
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:07 PM   #66
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My bet is on the engine-mounted fuel pump. Using an electric pump and by-passing the mechanical pump may do the trick. May I suggest that anything you are planning to try is done one at a time. If you do two or more and it works you will never know for certain which was the problem.
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:15 PM   #67
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Why do you ignore the non function cold start button?



I am not ignoring anything. I simply have not been back to the boat to work on it, nor am I very familiar with it at this point. I have never used it on the other one (except to test it), even in the coldest of our winter this year. I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:15 PM   #68
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Who makes these "cold start button controls"? Can you swap them to the other engine to see if the problem moves?
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:52 PM   #69
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I am not ignoring anything. I simply have not been back to the boat to work on it, nor am I very familiar with it at this point. I have never used it on the other one (except to test it), even in the coldest of our winter this year. I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?
Red
That was directed at Solly, giving you lots of advice other than fix the cold start.
Now Jack is suggesting you install a DC fuel pump, which you already have done before fixing the cold start.
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:59 PM   #70
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.........I had assumed it was not a normally used function. ?
while it may normally not be needed, some of us are suspecting that it is causing the problem, the STOP may not be completely releasing which may kick out the cold start from working.
That is why I suggested you watch the operation on the good engine (without cranking) to see what it does when someone above pressing the cold start, then go to other and see if the same happens on the engine not starting cold while someone above presses the cold start. You just may see an action occurring that you can then fix. OR you may be able to manually hold the cold start at engine while someone above tries to start. If it starts easy you have the solution. Forget the other stuff until you resolve that.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:39 PM   #71
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On a Lehman 120 the cold start button is located on the injection pump. It supplies extra fuel during cold starts. There is no button at the helm to activate the cold start button.

I never use the cold start. I gain the same effect by pushing the throttle all the way open when starting a cold engine.

I had a hard start with cold engine problem last summer on my FL 120. I went through the bleeding, changing filters and even changed the fuel pump with no success.

I noticed that the stop lever on the injection pump was not pushed all the way in. I pushed it all the way in and held it as the engine was started and it fired right up. Once the engine warmed up, the engine would start without fiddling with the start lever. The heat must expand something in the injection pump or the solenoid to allow the engine to start.

i adjusted the solenoid to stop lever connector by a turn and no more starting issues when cold. The adjustment is kinda' finicky. Too much adjustment and it will not stop the engine and not enough and the engine will not start. The sweet spot is about 1/2 turn of the adjustment lever.
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:18 PM   #72
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On a Lehman 120 the cold start button is located on the injection pump. It supplies extra fuel during cold starts. There is no button at the helm to activate the cold start button.

I never use the cold start. I gain the same effect by pushing the throttle all the way open when starting a cold engine.

I had a hard start with cold engine problem last summer on my FL 120. I went through the bleeding, changing filters and even changed the fuel pump with no success.

I noticed that the stop lever on the injection pump was not pushed all the way in. I pushed it all the way in and held it as the engine was started and it fired right up. Once the engine warmed up, the engine would start without fiddling with the start lever. The heat must expand something in the injection pump or the solenoid to allow the engine to start.

i adjusted the solenoid to stop lever connector by a turn and no more starting issues when cold. The adjustment is kinda' finicky. Too much adjustment and it will not stop the engine and not enough and the engine will not start. The sweet spot is about 1/2 turn of the adjustment lever.
Thanks, I asked early on if it was a solenoid relay to helm, no answer. I have cable remote to helm. I was going on premise someone changed to an electric control. The bolded is where I was headed. Carry on.
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:44 PM   #73
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Thanks, I asked early on if it was a solenoid relay to helm, no answer. I have cable remote to helm. I was going on premise someone changed to an electric control. The bolded is where I was headed. Carry on.
I mentioned the stop lever/solenoid issue on post #9.

Try disconnecting the connection from solenoid to stop lever and push the stop lever all the way till it stops and try starting.

My 120 does take some time to start when cold. I run the starter for 10 - 15 seconds with the throttle all the way to the stop to warm the cylinders. Let it rest for maybe 30 seconds and run the starter again. It usually starts the second time after the interior of the engine is slightly warmer.

When the engine is warm or the outside temperature is above 50 degrees, the engine starts quick.

I have a 200 pound flywheel on my 120 FL which cause the engine to spin slowly at first until the speed builds.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:35 PM   #74
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All good advice, thank you. I did adjust the stop linkage by two turns, but have not had a chance to try it when cold yet yet. Started and shut down when warm just fine though. Tomorrow when I get the fuel lines back together, I will give it a go.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:52 PM   #75
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After bleeding the injection pump, start the engine and bleed the injection pipes to individual cylinders.

I place a towel over the big nuts on the side of the head that the injection pipes go into and loosen the nut 1/4 turn or until the engine loses RPM or stumbles, one cylinder at a time. Tighten the nut, the speed should pick back up and go to the next cylinder. That will insure no air in the pipes.

If you loosen the big nut and the engine does not lose speed or stumble, that cylinder is not firing. Or if one cylinder does not slow as much as other cylinders, that cylinder is not operating at 100%. The concept is similar to disconnecting spark plug wires on a gas engine to locate a dead cylinder. I check it couple times a year to make sure all cylinders are firing.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:10 PM   #76
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I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.

I want you to try the cold-start procedure because it supplies a lot of fuel to the cold engine and if you get a good start you know the leak is in or after the Simms pump.

Have you serviced the Simms yet? Is the oil level correct?
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:19 PM   #77
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If the problem is from a slow leak wouldn't starting the engine from cold then immediately shutting it down before it had a chance to warm then trying to start it again tell you something?
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:47 PM   #78
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I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.
I found that it takes awhile for the injectors to self bleed. I think the air trapped in the injection line compresses and keeps the injectors valve from "popping" open.

I'm talking about injectors on a mechanical injection system as opposed to common rail.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:52 AM   #79
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I believe the injectors are self-bleeding.

I want you to try the cold-start procedure because it supplies a lot of fuel to the cold engine and if you get a good start you know the leak is in or after the Simms pump.

Have you serviced the Simms yet? Is the oil level correct?



Yes, oil was changed. No diesel found within the pump oil. It is a rebuilt IP. No, I have no further info than that on it.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:54 AM   #80
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If the problem is from a slow leak wouldn't starting the engine from cold then immediately shutting it down before it had a chance to warm then trying to start it again tell you something?

That's a damn good point. Good perspective. Thanks!



Problem is, now our town is not allowing us to even go to our boats. We'll see what happens.
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