The Great Debate

[RT Firefly]

 

[rgano]

Here's your post accusing me of throwing bombs. No smiley face, just an insult. So YOU lighten up and be a bit respectful.

Since you want to throw bombs, you might as well go full stroke and re-ignite the best dinghy question too? I don't have one anymore; so no dog in that hunt.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area


Go back at look. Post 51

You know, you are right! I MEANT to include a smiley because we all see the discourse of this topic a lot, and most here understand the intended humorous reaction I had to reigniting the debate. It was as it turns out a most unfortunate oversight. No harm, insult or any displeasure induced on your part was meant. Too bad our pleasant forum got so abused. So let's just start over and see if the wise heads cannot provide you an answer as I am unable to continue in this thread.

 

[Open-d]

Yep.

 

[Open-d]

You know, you are right! I MEANT to include a smiley because we all see the discourse of this topic a lot, and most here understand the intended humorous reaction I had to reigniting the debate. It was as it turns out a most unfortunate oversight. No harm, insult or any displeasure induced on your part was meant. Too bad our pleasant forum got so abused. So let's just start over and see if the wise heads cannot provide you an answer as I am unable to continue in this thread.

Agreed. If no insult intended, well no insult was intended. Thank you for the explanation.

I am genuinely trying to get my head around this issue, and there are arguments for both singles and twins. I have yet to settle this in my mind, and may never, but I don't want to make a potentially-fatal mistake, as I intend, eventually to do long-range cruises far away from a convenient tow, so reliability, to me, is paramount.

 

[jleonard]

Agreed. If no insult intended, well no insult was intended. Thank you for the explanation.

I am genuinely trying to get my head around this issue, and there are arguments for both singles and twins. I have yet to settle this in my mind, and may never, but I don't want to make a potentially-fatal mistake, as I intend, eventually to do long-range cruises far away from a convenient tow, so reliability, to me, is paramount.

With on engine you can afford twice as much PM to stay reliable.
There it's over the net.

 

[Open-d]

With on engine you can afford twice as much PM to stay reliable.
There it's over the net.

Okay. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel comfortable making the passage from Honolulu to Tahiti on a single 6-71 NA.

 

[rslifkin]

Okay. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel comfortable making the passage from Honolulu to Tahiti on a single 6-71 NA.

In the right boat and given appropriate spare parts and tools, yeah, I'd be fine with that.

 

[Fish53]

Damn, I go away for a couple of weeks and I miss all the fun, well here goes. I have literally thousands upon thousands of miles racked up on commercial boats with single engines. I've owned quite few also and while anyone should make their own choice I prefer a single. The reasons are buried throughout the numerous posts on this subject so need not be repeated by me. There's my vote and I hope I offended no one.

 

[Ken E.]

The archives at this site have many threads on single vs twin power and will give you all the arguments for each. Many opinions to choose from.

 

[Open-d]

In the right boat and given appropriate spare parts and tools, yeah, I'd be fine with that.

Are those spares along the lines of belts and hoses, or more significant parts such as impellers, bearings etc.?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Re: Post #68...

Edit: Mr O. Just saw your post (#70). Belts, hoses, impellers, prop(s), shaft (possibly), starter motor, water pump(s), injectors (at least a couple) and anything else you could fit in.

 

[rslifkin]

Are those spares along the lines of belts and hoses, or more significant parts such as impellers, bearings etc.?

Definitely belts, hoses, impellers, fluids, filters and anything else easily changeable like that. What other spares to carry depends on what you can reasonably carry, what you could reasonably replace in the event of a failure, etc. To an extent the tools you can carry will have an impact, as there's no point in carrying a spare part if you can't bring the tool needed to replace it.

 

[Fish53]

Okay. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel comfortable making the passage from Honolulu to Tahiti on a single 6-71 NA.

That's one of the better engines to do it with. If you know Detroit's it's easy to keep one going for years, plus parts are strewn all over backyards from here to Timbuktu and every NAPA has what you need. A couple of cylinder kits, 400 gallons of lube oil and off you go!

 

[BruceK]

Okay. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel comfortable making the passage from Honolulu to Tahiti on a single 6-71 NA.

Not right on point, but one TF member crossed the Atlantic, partly solo,single Lehman 135 in a KK42.
But as above, I prefer twins.

 

[Open-d]

That's one of the better engines to do it with. If you know Detroit's it's easy to keep one going for years, plus parts are strewn all over backyards from here to Timbuktu and every NAPA has what you need. A couple of cylinder kits, 400 gallons of lube oil and off you go!

400 gallons of lube oil? I heard they leak oil, but that seems a bit much?

 

[rslifkin]

Not right on point, but one TF member crossed the Atlantic, partly solo,single Lehman 135 in a KK42.
But as above, I prefer twins.

And not only did he do it in a 42 footer with a single, but he did it twice.

 

[Slowmo]

Obviously there's no 'right' answer. I spent 60 years on a single engine trawler (yes it was my father's before me). The maintenance of a single is much easier. However we purchased a boat with twins. Why? Well as I get older I just wanted the redundancy. However, it does come at a big cost, personally I thing the best would be a single with a get home engine.

 

[Okydowky]

Great comments and opinions! I think more if you can afford twins go for it! Maintenance isn’t that much of a deal breaker and I having gassers at this moment which isn’t so bad!
Yes a single can dock pretty well and quicker maintenance, but nothing like my twins that will bust a nut in my own tracks. And having a back up engine other your drink strapped to your hull trying to drag your butt back to the dock, I think pays for itself even once.
I do believe in karma and I personally have drug many single props back to port because of many reasons.
I prefer twins and CTow for my side kick, i hope I never have to call them.....

 

[syjos]

I've been big boat boating for 35 years. First boat was an 81 Mainship 34 with a single Perkins T6.3544 and the second a 76 Bluewater Trawler with a single Lehman 120 with 8,000 hours.

I've never had a propulsion failure requiring towing on either single engined boats. Mainship had a fuel pump failure and I installed the spare pump and went our way. An injector pipe cracked on the Lehman and I installed the spare pipe and was on our way within an hour. Locating the spare pipes stored on the boat took longer than the fix. The drain plug hole on the Lehman injection pump stripped while changing it's oil while at anchor in a remote bay. I drilled and tapped new threads and replaced the plug with a hose barb and connected a hose to it to make draining easier.

We carry all the parts and tools to repair almost anything that could go wrong with the engine, generator and other critical systems on the boat.

We don't cross oceans but we do cruise up to the Broughtons and further up the inside passage for 2 to 3 months every year. Parts and service are few and far so self sufficiency is a must.

It comes down to servicing everything religiously, proactively replacing parts before failure, carrying enough parts, having adequate tools and equipment to affect any emergency repair.

And the most important is getting the training or experience necessary to properly maintain, service, repair and troubleshoot all the systems yourself.

Worrying about engine failure and wishing for get home engines or twins will lessen as a boater gains experience or knowledge through education. If you have confidence in your abilities the fear of "what if" will diminish.

And the longer you own the boat and become more familiar with normal engine operation, noise, vibration, temperatures etc, you will start to notice if everything is going great or not.

I'm only referring to near coastal and inland cruising. Crossing oceans is another matter.

 

[Open-d]

I've been big boat boating for 35 years. First boat was an 81 Mainship 34 with a single Perkins T6.3544 and the second a 76 Bluewater Trawler with a single Lehman 120 with 8,000 hours.

I've never had a propulsion failure requiring towing on either single engined boats. Mainship had a fuel pump failure and I installed the spare pump and went our way. An injector pipe cracked on the Lehman and I installed the spare pipe and was on our way within an hour. Locating the spare pipes stored on the boat took longer than the fix. The drain plug hole on the Lehman injection pump stripped while changing it's oil while at anchor in a remote bay. I drilled and tapped new threads and replaced the plug with a hose barb and connected a hose to it to make draining easier.

We carry all the parts and tools to repair almost anything that could go wrong with the engine, generator and other critical systems on the boat.

We don't cross oceans but we do cruise up to the Broughtons and further up the inside passage for 2 to 3 months every year. Parts and service are few and far so self sufficiency is a must.

It comes down to servicing everything religiously, proactively replacing parts before failure, carrying enough parts, having adequate tools and equipment to affect any emergency repair.

And the most important is getting the training or experience necessary to properly maintain, service, repair and troubleshoot all the systems yourself.

Worrying about engine failure and wishing for get home engines or twins will lessen as a boater gains experience or knowledge through education. If you have confidence in your abilities the fear of "what if" will diminish.

And the longer you own the boat and become more familiar with normal engine operation, noise, vibration, temperatures etc, you will start to notice if everything is going great or not.

I'm only referring to near coastal and inland cruising. Crossing oceans is another matter.

The idea of having to change the oil in a fuel pump, with the opportunity of losing or stripping a plug or the housing is more-than-enough to keep me away from the FL120 engines. I am not a mechanic. I am more "operations" and less "engineering", even less maintenance and certainly very little "repair". I have very problematical hands and such activities while adrift at the mercy of the seaway is something to be avoided to me.

Thank you for you carefully considered response.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. O. This last post of yours (#80) raises very serious questions as to whether you should pursue your "plans" of travel from Honolulu to Tahiti AND to any remote locations anywhere. At least to me.


Boating in any shape or form necessitates either some mechanical "smarts" or access to assistance in a timely manner. Even the best motor in the world might fail at the most inopportune time for any number of reasons.



Perhaps an RV would be more to your liking?


I think I may have my Mr. O's mixed up.

 

[rslifkin]

Greetings,
Mr. O. This last post of yours (#80) raises very serious questions as to whether you should pursue your "plans" of travel from Honolulu to Tahiti AND to any remote locations anywhere. At least to me.


Boating in any shape or form necessitates either some mechanical "smarts" or access to assistance in a timely manner. Even the best motor in the world might fail at the most inopportune time for any number of reasons.

I was thinking the same. Although carefully selecting crew to join on trips in remote areas could help, as you can bring people that have the necessary abilities.

 

[Okydowky]

I agree with you Syjos, everyone has there own approach to the engine debate. We have twin well maintain Gassers with 2800hrs on them and never lost a days boating because of a break. ( knock on wood)
So please don’t think I’m attacking you personally you definitely have more yrs at sea than me.

The word that comes up in ever debate or forum is Redundancies, I consider twins redundant, hell nav systems redundant, anchors redundant, I have a redundant crab cooker.

There is so much debate of twin first single it seems it’s coming down to wiener size LOL.
If someone has the time and or has the finances to have twins well then why not.
I definitely am not saying twins make a better captain, but one plus is they maneuver in tight places well. My only real complaint is twins have taken up a lot of room in my ER, so a few things are tough to get to with the engine deck on. I have been on other threads asking these same questions because currently we are dealing on trawler with twins and one of my worries was access to engines..
I don’t pack anymore parts than you, but do have enough for the more common wear break downs and leaks.
I cruise the same waters as you so I’m never further than a couple days away from port.
I do like to have the ace in my back pocket to shut down 1 engine for what ever reason, and turn my boat to home or the closest dock without much effort.

Twins get my vote

 

[jleonard]

Okay. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel comfortable making the passage from Honolulu to Tahiti on a single 6-71 NA.

I have never owned nor worked on one of those so I cannot answer.
Honestly I would NOT feel comfortable on that cruise no matter what, nothing to do with the number or make of engines.

 

[sunchaser]

There is so much debate of twin first (vs) single

Only on TF.

 

[psneeld]

And because people stand fast on issues that depend, are debatable, aren't proven facts, can be mitigated, etc...etc....

Yet they post like they are facts....hard and fast....and even worse....they think they matter in the big scheme of things.

These "facts" are opinion or preference... and usually get pushed into those categories....but whenever one of these "facts" get posted....pages and pages are written to push them back into a more appropriate column.

Thus the debate rages on.

 

[slowgoesit]

It's a lot like asking who's better...a blonde, a brunette or a redhead?

It all depends.

Which one is better? The one you have! That's the correct answer for number of engines as well!

 

[slowgoesit]

The idea of having to change the oil in a fuel pump, with the opportunity of losing or stripping a plug or the housing is more-than-enough to keep me away from the FL120 engines. I am not a mechanic. I am more "operations" and less "engineering", even less maintenance and certainly very little "repair". I have very problematical hands and such activities while adrift at the mercy of the seaway is something to be avoided to me.

Thank you for you carefully considered response.

The tapped fitting with shut off valve will solve the 2nd issue you mentioned above, and for the first issue, the FL135 uses common oil in the fuel pump and engine sump as I'm sure you're aware since you singled out FL120's! No more having to change the fuel pump oil every 50 or so hours. Enjoy!

 

[Baker]

It's a lot like asking who's better...a blonde, a brunette or a redhead?

It all depends.

Which one is better? The one you have! That's the correct answer for number of engines as well!

You win the internet for the day!!!

 

[syjos]

The idea of having to change the oil in a fuel pump, with the opportunity of losing or stripping a plug or the housing is more-than-enough to keep me away from the FL120 engines. I am not a mechanic. I am more "operations" and less "engineering", even less maintenance and certainly very little "repair". I have very problematical hands and such activities while adrift at the mercy of the seaway is something to be avoided to me.

Thank you for you carefully considered response.

Ford Lehman engines are reliable old school engines with no electronic engine controls. They are easy to troubleshoot and repair. Parts are very reasonably priced and readily available.

I would not have any other engine in an 8 knot single engined trawler. And many here on TF will agree.

Once the injection pump drain is modified, changing oil is a 15 minute simple operation.

I'd rather worry about stripping the injection drain port on a FL than worrying about an ECM failure.