Genny in the forepeak?

[OldDan1943]

If you purchase the boat I would run it for a year before even considering moving the Gen. I am betting it will still be in the fore peak when you sell it.

Beautiful boat.

We are assuming it is a diesel generator.
A gasoline powered boat scares the 'brown stuff' out of me.

 

[Airstream345]

Yes, diesel everything (engines, genny, heat)

Pack Mule, that's pretty impressive and speaks highly of it's capabilities. We're hopeful based on how the boat presented but we're going in eyes wide open. I realized the other day after talking with the survey mechanic we're talking about four engines here (two Lehmans an Onan and an outboard).

That was what I'd call a "significant moment of realization"

 

[Airstream345]

Genny is a PO add on (tankage was removed). The unit itself came from a sailboat where gennys can often be installed under a quarter berth. While it runs it's not running well and needs repairs. Certainly a topic of discussion with the mechanical surveyor, the surveyor and the broker.

 

[BruceK]

What model Onan is it?
2 or 3 cyl?
Kubota engined?
How noisy/vibrating is it in operation?
How likely is it the fwd cabin will be used when it needs to be run?

 

[Airstream345]

Bruce, great questions. I expect the mechanical survey back today with details about the make and model (I didn't think to snap a picture of the plate(s) during the survey). It's very rough running on start almost like fuel starvation. It did settle out but still rough and quite noisy (rattling external components). During the haul out we noticed soot around the exhaust through hull.

The spec sheet on the boat lists it as rebuilt with 20 hours on it but the PO mentioned he had not run it in years (this boat wasn't used often and when it was they said they rarely anchored).

As far as our usage, it's hard for me to predict. I'd like to have a functioning and reliable genny onboard and given the spec sheet promoting the rebuild we'll likely discuss repairing, replacing or a suitable discount with the PO.

Regarding placement, both surveyors thought the location was indeed odd given the generous ER but not dangerous. I would doubt anyone would be comfortable sleeping over a running genny given the noise, heat and vibration.

 

[Chrisjs]

My only comment is to think carefully about the space required if relocating to the ER.
In my experience, a sound insulation cabinet makes the genny bulkier and more difficult to access for even routine service. The cabinet encloses 4 sides and the top, and you need to remove some or all of it to work on the unit. Our 12.5K Westerbeke had a small "access door" that was next to useless. It was necessary to take the front off for even basic access and the front was connected to the top and to the end panels, so they needed loosening/removing as well. Make sure you can access all around withe the noise insulation cabinet in place, you will need this access just to remove the cabinet before you do any work on the genny.

 

[Airstream345]

Good point. As it sits it's quite accessible.

 

[sunchaser]

My only comment is to think carefully about the space required if relocating to the ER.
In my experience, a sound insulation cabinet makes the genny bulkier and more difficult to access for even routine service. The cabinet encloses 4 sides and the top, and you need to remove some or all of it to work on the unit. Our 12.5K Westerbeke had a small "access door" that was next to useless. It was necessary to take the front off for even basic access and the front was connected to the top and to the end panels, so they needed loosening/removing as well. Make sure you can access all around withe the noise insulation cabinet in place, you will need this access just to remove the cabinet before you do any work on the genny.

Chris

We've got the same Westerbeke and enclosure but in a DeFever ER. No difficulties with enclosure removal. It would seem that ER access issues are vessel specific.

 

[Chrisjs]

Sunchaser, I agree totally.
Mine was squashed into a corner against a bulkhead with very difficult access to back, stbd. side and top.
Just saying, allow for reasonable all round access unless you are a contortionist (as I needed to become from time to time!!).
Plus my recollection is the DeFever's have big ERs.

 

[OldDan1943]

We would all have bigger and better access if they didn't put the engine and generator until the pilot house and salon flooring were installed. LOL

 

[OldDan1943]

The original owner of my Nordhavn had a 20KW gen put in the engine room. Totally screwed up the engine room. If there was an outboard trouble to the 20KW gen, it would require cutting a hole in the hull.
He used sound isolating blankets. VERY heavy.
IT was a 12kw boat.

 

[Airstream345]

One of the features of this trawler is the ER access is both from a door through the mid-ship stateroom (for fuel filter, oil check, etc) but also from above through a set of removable hatches in the salon floor. Good if you need to perform more significant maintenance or upgrades (and people aren't in the salon). Sort of reminded me of the access I've seen in GB42's where you basically can get to everything by removing most of the salon floor.

 

[OldDan1943]

Okay, what are the negative points you have discovered so far.

 

[Airstream345]

For the genny or the entire boat?

 

[OldDan1943]

For the entire boat.
What cant you live with?

 

[Airstream345]

OK, here goes...

Aside from the generator the mechanical systems are in excellent condition and have been well maintained. The concerning items are typical for an 80's trawler. In no particular order:

Teak decks (which I love) around the pilot house had some percussion tests that indicated some areas needed attention. Moisture readings conflicted with percussion tests here (read on)

Similar on the boat deck (keep in mind this boat has been in a boathouse for 20+ years so water intrusion related issues could have been from earlier ownership. Moisture meters show low/no moisture in these areas.

Pilothouse top is plywood and shows signs of glass delamination in several areas

Backside of the Portuguese Deck needs cosmetic repairs.

Notable surface rust on top of starboard fuel tank (steel). Certainly concerning but the tanks are fully visible from the ER and easily inspectable....additionally the inevitable replacement doesn't appear to require cutting of the hull or inner structures for removal.

SS Water tank is approaching EOL and would be a big job to replace

Older (but functional) electronics on lower helm

All of this said none of these items would make me walk away from the purchase. I think there will be some compromise to accommodate reasonable repairs with the seller but I'm comfortable knowing what I'm getting into overall.

So, (with a fair discount applied) really nothing I can't live with and take on as the next owner.

 

[OldDan1943]

Replacing the water tank..... when necessary, cut it out and replace with one or two cross connect plastic tanks.

 

[OldDan1943]

If the electronics work, you can put that upgrade on either the "TO DO" list or the "I wish list."

The moisture intrusion needs to be looked at carefully.

 

[BruceK]

Gensets like to be run regularly, my Onan Manual says at least half an hour every week. Yours might need some use, and some loading up. Mine definitely starts better when run regularly.Touch wood, they don`t need a lot of maintenance.
The 2cyl Onan(?MDJE) is less smooth than the 3cyl which imo runs sweetly (Kubota engine).
I once had to remove much of the sound shield from my MDKD Onan. The front comes off easily, but a trained octopus would be handy for the top and sides.We have a special lift out hatch in the parquet flooring to access the coolant top up.
It would be a rarity you could not arrange using the genset outside times the fwd berth is in use, if you decide to move it there should be no urgency.
A marina neighbour recently had his genset engine refusing to run properly and emitting black smoke, turned out to be the excessive demands of a defective generation end, not the engine itself.
You can get a manual from the internet but it tends to concentrate on fault finding due to the numerous interlocks to stop itself if it senses trouble,and the generation end. Maybe I should look for a Kubota manual to fill the gap, you need to know what engine you have to check that out.

 

[CPseudonym]

Teak decks (which I love) around the pilot house had some percussion tests that indicated some areas needed attention. Moisture readings conflicted with percussion tests here (read on)

Similar on the boat deck (keep in mind this boat has been in a boathouse for 20+ years so water intrusion related issues could have been from earlier ownership. Moisture meters show low/no moisture in these areas.

Pilothouse top is plywood and shows signs of glass delamination in several areas

Backside of the Portuguese Deck needs cosmetic repairs.

So, (with a fair discount applied) really nothing I can't live with and take on as the next owner.

Whoa! Slow down cowboy.

Are you planning on keeping this boat in a boathouse?

Are you planning to let Mother Nature hose your boat down for you in the winter?

No moisture might mean it hasn't been thoroughly soaked in a while. Unless potentially replacing decks is in your plans for acceptable projects take a hard look at current use and storage and be sure your plans are similar.

In this case just because the moisture meter shows its dry doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't or won't leak profusely. The carpenters adage of measuring twice to cut once may apply here. Good luck and proceed with caution.

 

[Northern Spy]

Regarding placement, both surveyors thought the location was indeed odd given the generous ER but not dangerous. I would doubt anyone would be comfortable sleeping over a running genny given the noise, heat and vibration.

Whaddya mean?

 

[BruceK]

Surface rust on top of a fuel tank indicates water on the surface. What is above the tank? It`s often under a deck, so check the condition of the decking. The tank top can be treated easily enough, but remediating decking is another story.
I share CPS`s concerns. You might have quite different presentation were this boat not under cover. For example, the difference between moisture readings which might be expected where percussion tests were positive for (?) rot.
That said, these are apparently rare boats of good design, so balancing the + and the - factors is a good course as you make decisions. A chat with the hull surveyor about his report may be helpful. Fortunately it seems you got a good report mechanically. Nothing about the genset? Maybe a chat with the mechanical surveyor too.

 

[Airstream345]

Fellas, I really appreciate all of the perspective and advice. I'm hoping for the best but planning for the worst and I'm aware of the trials and tribulations of an 80's trawler with teak decks. I've had extensive and detailed discussions with both surveyors and both have exposed the "need to fix", "should fix" and "want to fix" issues and associated risks as well as practical solutions and the impact on value and resale. There are issues to manage on this or any other boat from this era but at the same time both said they would not hesitate to take her to Alaska tomorrow. She's an average condition trawler who's had the good fortune of being under cover more than half her life but there still the expected issues that need to be addressed.

BruceK puts it well. Balancing the + against the - is what matters on old boats that have character and charm and capabilities beyond their insurable value. Buying this vessel at a fair price and improving her, fixing what's needed and upgrading what's missing still puts us on plus side. I see a lot of potential, but that's my nature. I personally take great joy and pride in repairs and improvements and see that as part of the journey.

We've looked at DeFevers and Krogens and Ocean Alexanders for 2X, 3X and even 5X the price of this little boat and each comes with the same risks and similar issues. All boats are in a state of decay - it's a matter of your personal risk tolerance and technical capabilities combined with your ability to either DIY or fund maintenance and repairs at the yard. For us we're comfortable taking on what comes.

As far as moorage we do plan to moor under cover. Boathouses are few and far in-between here but covered moorage is the plan. We also expect to make needed repairs as well as reasonable investments in this boat.

Next step is value finalization and closing. We'll see where everything lands.

 

[Ski in NC]

Post what model the gennie is. You mentioned that it ran rough. Some models (one and two cylinders) are rough by nature, others should run smooth. Don't want to close without having a good handle on its condition.

 

[OldDan1943]

Deck water leaks can be difficult to fix. The water will show up inside at the weak part of the plywood. The water can travel great distances before it finds a weak spot to drip inside the boat.
Good luck.

 

[Airstream345]

After a lot of discussion with the surveyors and each other we made the sellers a significantly revised but fair offer based on the survey value which accommodates us the funds required for repairs. They accepted.

While it doesn't negate the work in front of us we're pretty excited. Personally I look forward to the process as it's my nature to tackle these things and we're excited to take on the stewardship of this proud little vessel.

Our plan is to run her this winter and next summer and then manage our way through the fix list next winter. That should give us a much better perspective on "needs" and "shoulds" repair priority as well as our "wants".

Closing is next week, then we'll sail her up to her new home in Seattle.

 

[BruceK]

Great news, looks like commonsense won out.
I`m no fan of the delivery voyage being the shakedown "getting acquainted" cruise, but I`ve no idea of the delivery distance, if it`s long do some local runs first.

 

[Airstream345]

Great news, looks like commonsense won out.
I`m no fan of the delivery voyage being the shakedown "getting acquainted" cruise, but I`ve no idea of the delivery distance, if it`s long do some local runs first.

Thanks Bruce. I agree. It's a 56nm trip from there to here and I'm unfamiliar with both the boat and the waters so I plan to either hire an instructional captain to guide me and/or bring along a very experienced friend.