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Old 04-16-2022, 10:26 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Can someone provide an objective citation that improved economy comes at the expense of efficiency? Because to my mind it's counter intuitive - efficient combustion of a hydrocarbon produces CO2 and H2O. Overall stats I could find show this is the exception, not the rule. But I couldn't find specific diesel (i could find trucks that show similar trend, though less pronounced). There could be a counter-current within the data, but without a citation, the macro data clearly suggests that efficiency follows reduced emissions which makes sense - extraction of more Btus makes more power and leaves less harmful byproduct (which is why I cited the California program to replace fish boat engines)

See below of what i could find. EPA comparison of actual emissions compared to efficiency. The counterintuitive trend - increased emissions and decreased efficiency- appears to be a 20-year anomaly from 1985-2005. Is it possible the anecdotal comments on this thread are dated?

So does anyone have any empirical citation (vs anecdotal) that diesel engines buck the overall trend that reduced emissions results in improved efficiency? Maybe diesels have a different trend, but hard to support that observation without data. I can tell you from experience that a Willard 40 with an old Perkins 6.354 (135hp) burns around 2.5gph at 7-1/4 kts whereas one with a JD4045T (120hp) burns closer to 1-3/4gph.

I'll say it again. There are several reasons to own an old mechanical engine. Fuel efficiency is not one of them.
Sorry, mine's anecdotal.

I have a 2002 Dodge with the Cummins 6BT 220 HP engine. It's factory original. With 518,000 miles, it still gets 19 MPG in the city and 24 on the highway.

After checking Dodge's latest offerings, the 2022 gets 12 MPG city and 18 highway. Motortrend's test on the 2020 with the same manufacturer's ratings, yielded 20 MPG highway.

So did the economy suffer for cleaner emissions?

Ted
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:10 AM   #82
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Hi, any chance of model/part numbers for the hyd servo and hyd motor?
If I can mcguyver a hydraulic gen together for small money I"d be keen.

Thanks

I'll see what I can come up with . . .
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:47 AM   #83
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Sorry, mine's anecdotal.

I have a 2002 Dodge with the Cummins 6BT 220 HP engine. It's factory original. With 518,000 miles, it still gets 19 MPG in the city and 24 on the highway.

After checking Dodge's latest offerings, the 2022 gets 12 MPG city and 18 highway. Motortrend's test on the 2020 with the same manufacturer's ratings, yielded 20 MPG highway.

So did the economy suffer for cleaner emissions?

Ted
The answer is in your post above. The 2022 Cummins engine produces 370 HP
and 850 lbs-ft of torque. That's the smaller of the two diesel options offered.
It's not surprising that 60% more power comes at a 20% cost in economy.

I'm with you in preferring the 6BT if that's what you're saying. That's a keeper.
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Old 04-16-2022, 12:00 PM   #84
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I had a very useful hydraulic cruise generator on my last boat.
It was driven by the main engine, a Perkins 4-236 of about 85 HP.
The pump was a variable displacement swashplate type like those used on big
rigs for refrigerated trailers. The generator was 5kW driven by hydraulic motors.

It was pretty simple and completely trouble free.
A good DIY'er could easily put one together. The Dynaset generator looks easier still.
The voltage stayed very steady once the main engine was above idle speed.
The pump output has to be matched to the generator size and motors used.
Thank you for the information!

Later,
Dan
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Old 04-16-2022, 12:13 PM   #85
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Dividing into Four major areas:
  1. Hydraulic pump, attached to front of main engine via splined shaft, Eaton Model 70553.
  2. Electric/hydraulic servo's to first switch source of hydraulic pressure, either main engine, or backup Isuzu diesel engine. Then select destination appliance to use pressure: In our case, chose between bow thruster, generator, or get home hyd. motor which couples to main shaft via chain and sprockets in the event the main engine is disabled.
  3. Hydraulic motor, attached to generator: No data plate found
  4. Generator itself: Stamford 12 KVA, 120v, 100amp
I can adjust the Hertz to 60 cycles by looking at a gauge, and turning a valve by the servo's to fine tune. For instance if I chose cruise rpm of 1300, then set it, then chose to bump my main engine rpm to 1400, I will have to manually set the hz down to obtain 60hz again.

One of the drawbacks of HYDRAULIC bow thrusters is that when you are most in need of the thruster, many times you are in slow speed maneuvers, say coming into dock, and therefore the main engine rpm is low, and your hyd pressure/flow will be low, resulting in a weak bow thruster response.
HOWEVER, since we have a CPP, docking is generally conducted with main engine rpm of around 1100, varying pitch for speed, and fwd, or rev. So we have plenty of hyd pressure for the bow thruster.

Enjoy!
...
Thank you. Added the generator to my list.

We are looking at using a CPP, engine RPMs would be up when docking so the thruster(s) would have the needed power.

Thanks,
Dan
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Old 04-16-2022, 12:13 PM   #86
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Thank you for the information!

Later,
Dan
I should have detailed information stored away so PM me if you need me to find it.
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Old 04-16-2022, 12:59 PM   #87
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The answer is in your post above. The 2022 Cummins engine produces 370 HP
and 850 lbs-ft of torque. That's the smaller of the two diesel options offered.
It's not surprising that 60% more power comes at a 20% cost in economy.

I'm with you in preferring the 6BT if that's what you're saying. That's a keeper.
The newer truck is also a bit bigger, heavier duty and more capable than the older ones of the same class. That costs a bit of efficiency as well.
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Old 04-16-2022, 01:08 PM   #88
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Slowgoesit I owned probably 15 trucks with Gardner engines in the 60's 70's and providing you serviced them correctly they were virtually indestructible. The Gardner was designed to be low revving high torque, coupled to a 6 speed box they would lug heavy loads up hill and down dale day & night whilst being easy on the fuel.
Yes they smoke when first started up until they reach working temp. You can reduce this slightly (& pollution) if you run then on 20% paraffin, brilliant engines all you have to watch on the 8LXB is to fit a larger capacity water pump or the No 8 cylinder can run a bit hot.
Superb engine and wish they were still making engines.
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Old 04-16-2022, 10:15 PM   #89
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Slowgoesit I owned probably 15 trucks with Gardner engines in the 60's 70's and providing you serviced them correctly they were virtually indestructible. The Gardner was designed to be low revving high torque, coupled to a 6 speed box they would lug heavy loads up hill and down dale day & night whilst being easy on the fuel.
Yes they smoke when first started up until they reach working temp. You can reduce this slightly (& pollution) if you run then on 20% paraffin, brilliant engines all you have to watch on the 8LXB is to fit a larger capacity water pump or the No 8 cylinder can run a bit hot.
Superb engine and wish they were still making.

We're pretty tickled with it! People are often taken aback by just the SIZE of the beast though!
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Old 04-17-2022, 02:52 AM   #90
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Guys and Gals

You're beating dead horses here / /

You're missing the point. It's the "Refined Fossil Fuels" that are the pollution culprits... not the engines!

Each and every one posting has good points about the efficiency [or inefficiency] of different brands and types of liquid hydrocarbon fuel burning engines. Cause plenty of good input has been made in this thread.

HOWEVER!!

All the billions of [cars, trucks, boats, planes, generators, lawn mowers, chainsaws, leaf blowers... etc, etc] refined fossil fuel powered combustion engines emit non-recycled, carbon positive new pollutants to one degree or another into the atmosphere.

The trick is to produce Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral liquid hydrocarbon fuels [gasoline, diesel, jet] to run the billions of ICE powered equipment required to keep civilization running.

This is in process of getting ready to be accomplished... by capturing and reconstituting the 100 year built-up massive overload of atmospheric CO2.

I can't go into all the details... there are hundreds to thousands of doctoral papers regarding this. Suffice it to say [in simplest terms]: Atmosphere contains more excess carbon dioxide than any combined group of currently developed and operating fossil fuel deposits in the world. In layman's terms... Due to humanity's extraction of and burning of fossil fuels, their emissions have made the atmosphere to become the largest "hydrocarbon reserve/resource" ever discovered. And, that resource will create/become the new-source liquid hydrocarbon, Full-Cycle Carbon Neutral fuels to help power the world while simultaneously greatly helping to abate climate warming. Mark my words! - Art
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Old 04-17-2022, 04:34 AM   #91
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Art we already know that, but the oil companies and the more importantly the executives who drive them are making too many $$$$$$$ to change their ways. Maybe the Russian Ukraine invasion may make them wake up.

Slowgoesit. The problem with the new engines is that they are a pony trying to do a horses job and they can't stick the pace as long as the real McCoy.
Just to hear the unique sound of the starter kicking over the big gal makes my heart sing, my tool box takes the huff and snaps shut because its not needed !
I'm envious of you. Enjoy the best of British engineering.
Its ironic, when the first Swedish Volvo's and Scania's came on the scene they were revving out at up to 3,500 with a 16 speed box, and now ? They have all gone back to the high torque slow revving 1950 rpm with 8 speed boxes.
That's progress ? ?
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Old 04-17-2022, 05:58 AM   #92
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Slowgoesit I owned probably 15 trucks with Gardner engines in the 60's 70's and providing you serviced them correctly they were virtually indestructible. .
My grandfather did his apprenticeship in England working on Gardner powered double decker buses then later, drive them .
Have a copy of his apprenticeship papers on a hard drive somewhere.

I don't remember stories about the motors but do remember one about the driving test where the instructor made him stop on a hill and then took out his ornate fob watch and placed it under the back wheel.
He passed the test.
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Old 04-18-2022, 02:05 PM   #93
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We're pretty tickled with it! People are often taken aback by just the SIZE of the beast though!
On a visit to a boat builder in China, there were two 8XLBs sitting on pallets under tarps waiting to be installed in a commercial inland water way ship that was being refurbished. The engines were huge, yet beautiful and a work of art. Can't really say that for modern engines I have seen.

Later,
Dan
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Old 04-23-2022, 01:13 PM   #94
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Friend collects steam and very early oil powered farm equipment. Mobile and stationary. Brass, some bronze and even the iron is engraved in places. Wheels of most are solid and taller than I could ever dunk. All of his stuff still works. Most well over a century old. Stuff from 1922 is modern to him and rarely worth collecting.
Yes a different era. Gearheads are disappearing. Still glad Lucas prince of darkness is a memory.
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Old 04-23-2022, 02:23 PM   #95
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Hippocampus. I remember as a youngster having to start the horizontal diesel, it had a darned great flywheels each side and you started it by opening the decompressor (no handles),turning the flywheel until you got enough speed up, then you shut the decompressor and she fired. She drove an overhead system of pulleys for different machinery.
Slowgoesit, we're searching through old paper invoices to see if we can find the part number for the modified water pump for your Gardner, I'll let you know if I find it.
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Old 04-23-2022, 04:26 PM   #96
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Still glad Lucas prince of darkness is a memory.
Q: Why do the Brits drink warm beer?
A: Because Lucas also made refrigerators.

I still own a 1963 Triumph Bonneville motorcycle I purchased in 1979. Not a memory.

Peter
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Old 04-23-2022, 09:55 PM   #97
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Q: Why do the Brits drink warm beer?
A: Because Lucas also made refrigerators.

I still own a 1963 Triumph Bonneville motorcycle I purchased in 1979. Not a memory.

Peter
Yeah being new to the diesel world it's funny how different the discussion is around old gassers. While there's still emotional attachment to the antiques nobody's asking questions about whether they're more or less reliable or fuel efficient! Having futzed around with motorcycle carburetors for hours and hours in sometimes dubious roadside or trailside locations I'm fine with EFI! Of course diesels always had fuel injection & no ignition so I understand mourning that lost simplicity & inherent reliability.
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Old 04-23-2022, 10:56 PM   #98
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Can someone provide an objective citation that improved economy comes at the expense of efficiency? Because to my mind it's counter intuitive - efficient combustion of a hydrocarbon produces CO2 and H2O. Overall stats I could find show this is the exception, not the rule. But I couldn't find specific diesel (i could find trucks that show similar trend, though less pronounced). There could be a counter-current within the data, but without a citation, the macro data clearly suggests that efficiency follows reduced emissions which makes sense - extraction of more Btus makes more power and leaves less harmful byproduct (which is why I cited the California program to replace fish boat engines)

See below of what i could find. EPA comparison of actual emissions compared to efficiency. The counterintuitive trend - increased emissions and decreased efficiency- appears to be a 20-year anomaly from 1985-2005. Is it possible the anecdotal comments on this thread are dated?

So does anyone have any empirical citation (vs anecdotal) that diesel engines buck the overall trend that reduced emissions results in improved efficiency? Maybe diesels have a different trend, but hard to support that observation without data. I can tell you from experience that a Willard 40 with an old Perkins 6.354 (135hp) burns around 2.5gph at 7-1/4 kts whereas one with a JD4045T (120hp) burns closer to 1-3/4gph.

I'll say it again. There are several reasons to own an old mechanical engine. Fuel efficiency is not one of them.

Below is the referenced fleet average report, with a screen shot plucked showing correlation of three phases

https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trend...-trends-report

Peter Attachment 127682

Peter,
The EPA reports you are referring to is for GAS engine's not HD diesels or class 7 or 8 trucks which have the engines we use in marine installations.
I don't claim to be an expert in diesels but I do know that marine diesels run more efficiently when loaded to 75-80%, but gas motors seem to be the opposite and are most efficient at 20-25% load.
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Old 04-23-2022, 11:49 PM   #99
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Hi Peter,
Actually I'm Irish, I never liked the English beer or ales. The latest trend is for cold beer even in Ireland and Guinness was a far better drink at room temperature.
On the brief visits we make to the UK we see the younger Brits are also going more for chilled beer.

My first 'big' bike was a Triumph 650 which I modified with a Norton featherbed frame (Triton) which I raced on the South of England tracks. I was serving in the Brit army at the time and we got emergency posted to Cyprus during the terrorist campaign, some b,,,,,,,,d stole it whilst I was away on active service, it broke my heart to lose it like that. I never raced again.
Enjoy your Bonneville and give her a wee blip from me.
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Old 04-24-2022, 05:32 AM   #100
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Can I claim the prize for most efficient?
1966 Volvo Penta MD70, 6 litre diesel, 147HP, 8000 hours. 37' wooden ex commercial salmon troller.
1gallon per hour at 6 knots, 1300rpm.
Sure, but I'd be interested in more pics and info on your boat.
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