Fuel filters question

[sunchaser]

I use NAPA filters on my CAT 3208T/A for fuel and oil. My OEM filters were crossed referenced to NAPA. Have almost 1000 miles on the boat with no issues.

When I was working with heavy equipment we used thousands of NAPA filters on Cat engines and transmissions. With Cat's blessing. In most cases though Cat eventually came around and matched prices.

NAPA filters are made in USA as best I remember.

 

[smitty477]

Thanks Smitty

Each engine has a twin Racor set up of two 2 micron filters and one primary 2 micron filter on each Cummins. Please don’t tell me the QSM11 are one of the Diesel fuel pumps that don’t like to be stressed?

I am not familiar with the QSM11 but perhaps you can find a reputable Cummins rep that will help answer that question - if you have your average and max vacuum readings for the conversation it may help. I know they have tech bulletins and engine parameter specs that are not typically available to us that they do refer to.

 

[smitty477]

Like many TF discussions, you fail to step back and see what you are not familiar with.

If you run a Lehman as on tbe average trawler here, you are using between 2 and 3 gallons per hour per engine.

If you cruise and keep your fuel clean, like me and many others, you probably can run a Racor 500 for years with no vacuum issues. I change more for the aquabloc feature than worrying about plugging. So once a year is my schedule, but it is a preventative, not necessary change.

I might die of old age or sell the boat long before I use up my spare 2 micron filters at this rate.

You are entitled to think whatever, but reading hundreds of posts by individuals through the years that just carry 2 micron filtets to keep it simple and cruise without issue tells me that theory is fone, reality is just as good.

As I said though, different countries fuel and different engines would probably change my mind.

You do not have to run recommended filters.
It is not important to select best filters for fuel if you are not concerned about filter change intervals and/or getting a 'dirty' fuel load.
You do not need to add vacuum gages to tell you what status your filters are at - you can guess or just change when the engine rpm degrades.
Not necessary to add a bulk filter either - it will do 10X the job but if you do not use the boat extensively why bother.

I have run many Racor 500's and 900's and they were serviceable but 3-4X the price of spin on options as well as requiring a whole lot of time to change them. It was really not a problem to keep both 2 and 10 micron Racors on the boat especially since they are color coded.

 

[psneeld]

people keep using the word "better", but when a product does its job for the time period its designed for, and only ASSUME they are trouble and take longer, etc, etc, etc.....

then "better" is really only an opinion.....not a "fact"...

.... and thats my rub with some TF discussions...not every subject is so neatly in a box it can be nailed shut with a few dozen posts that dont come close to covering ALL the possibilities. But at least more than one "opinion" is presented so people can further investigate what works for them.

 

[smitty477]

people keep using the word "better", but when a product does its job for the time period its designed for, and only ASSUME they are trouble and take longer, etc, etc, etc.....

then "better" is really only an opinion.....not a "fact"...

.... and thats my rub with some TF discussions...not every subject is so neatly in a box it can be nailed shut with a few dozen posts that dont come close to covering ALL the possibilities.

IMHO "better" examples ...
- do you have vacuum gages that let you know the status of the filters and can tell you when you are near a filter change?
- is your filter system designed so it is easy to replace a filter? (location and filter design)
- Does your filter cost represent the lower end of costs for a higher end result?

Any and all of these would be 'better' in my opinion and rely on 'factual' data.
A good thing to remember is that fuel flow is used to lubricate and cool both the fuel pump and the injectors greatly adding to their life. Most all diesels will run on lower flow due whether due to a poor filter design or partially plugged filters. What happens to the 'parts' involved is not always a problem or clear but it can add up over time without ever shutting down an engine.

 

[psneeld]

Do you have vacuum gauges on your secondary filters? If not and you run progessive filtration, could the secondaries cause a restriction that is on the other side of the lift pump?

Thus pressure not vacuum....

OK....progressive is better, but on Leman 120s certainly proved not necessary.

 

[smitty477]

Do you have vacuum gauges on your secondary filters? If not and you run progessive filtration, could the secondaries cause a restriction that is on the other side of the lift pump?

Thus pressure not vacuum....

OK....progressive is better, but on Leman 120s certainly proved not necessary.

I agree with you , absolutely not necessary but you had asked about 'better'.

- Vacuum gages do show when a filter change is needed
- Vacuum gages tell you quickly if you have taken on a fuel problem
- Vacuum gages will let you plan filter changes before or during a big trip
- Vacuum gages will help greatly in an engine diagnosing situations (too little or no vacuum)

I have found their ability to help in diagnosing problems to be well worth the $25 alone.

 

[Wxx3]

Well said. I do like and talk to Brian at American Diesel, but in this case, i simply don't think it matters that much.
In addition, Marin wrote a very well articulated case for having the primary be the most restrictive.
And that's the practice i do, 10 micron Racors and I use Fram filters for the engine.
THis system has worked well and in over the three years and a few thousand hours, I have not seen any water or anything in the secondary Frams. (which I only change yearly, but far less than primaries.

Richard on Dauntless

I meant 2 micron for primary

 

[Ski in NC]

I don't think it matters much what filters you use.

You could use 2, 10, 30mic primaries and 2, 10, 20, or 30mic secondaries in any mix you choose. Then do a particle count on downstream fuel and particle count and size distribution will likely be similar.

Most engines (but not all) cycle a good bit of fuel and if you have one of those, you are doing what in industry is loosely called "spinning the tanks", basically any fuel burned gets several trips through the filters before seeing an injector. That fuel will be pretty dang clean.

Another thing is that both asphaltenes and bio-gunk are not particularly abrasive. Probably cause no damage should they get through. And (pretty sure of this) that they tend to be pretty large particles so any filter will get them.

If running common rail engine, I would be picky their due to some failure modes specific to that system.

A customer gave me a box of 30mic elements for my 900 racor. Said he read on them interwebs that running 10's was better for his old engine. I did not argue with him. Since then I run 30's in my boat where I used to buy 10's, at least until I run out of his 30's!!

So these kind of filter discussions really worked out for me!!!

 

[Xsbank]

I removed the spin-on filters from my engine and tossed them, then I mounted a third Racor 500 on the bulkhead to be my "on engine" filter. Worked great, same filter as the primaries and so all the spare filters were the same. Much easier to change than the original filters and the flow to a Lehman is so small that sucking/blowing of the Racor was no issue. Custom fuel hoses, same old lift pump. Clear bowl so you didn't have to guess the condition of the secondaries. Worked for me...

 

[Heron]

I'm a big fan of progressive filtering. There has been lots written on this. I run a 27 micron fleetguard, into a 10 micron Racor, into a 2 micron (Napa) on the engine. With a large capacity micron primary, the chances of a blockage underway are minimal....Yet you still have fine filtering downstream which keeps the injectors happy..

 

[BruceK]

I'm a big fan of progressive filtering. There has been lots written on this. I run a 27 micron fleetguard, into a 10 micron Racor, into a 2 micron (Napa) on the engine. With a large capacity micron primary, the chances of a blockage underway are minimal....Yet you still have fine filtering downstream which keeps the injectors happy..

That makes sense. By progressively increasing the filtering level at 3 filtration points I`d expect each filter contributes to a gradual filtering, down to 2 microns.
If the primary was 2 microns wouldn`t it be more likely to get plugged early?
If the primary is 2 microns why is there any need of another filter after it?

 

[yarradeen]

IMO if you run the same micron filter spec on multiple filters the first one get dirty and blocked and the second one remains clean. What's the point?

I run three filters.

Pre filter 35micron with WIF sensor and Alarm. Mud filter.
Primary 10 micron racor with vacuum guage.
On engine 2-5 micron engine manufacture filter

I also cut open with a pipe cutter the prefilter when changing to inspect the filter.


State of filter at change is important to note. Photos can help with comparisons. With cell phones we all have this option.

I photo graph every thing including all receipts so I don't lose them....

 

[Bigsfish]

Varradeen

I’m no expert on this stuff and I agree that you will change your primary more often but I use the secondary (both 2 mic) catch what the primary misses. I really like to provide clean Fuel to the engine so if I have to change one primary twice as often it is only a $10.00 bill per engine and I change it once per year. I can afford that.

 

[caltexflanc]

George

Not sure I follow your reasoning. So by using a fuel filter which is finer and therefore filters the fuel to a Finer degree is somehow dangerous just because it doesn’t follow the manufacturers letter to the T. I wonder how many manufacturers have changed their recommendations because of consumer input? I know one that did!

Who?


But first, you evidence you don't know what progressive filtration is, and why for many engines the manufacturers specify it. Here's a little epistle from internet guru Tony Athens (scroll down to the section "(So what is “Multi-Stage filtration??: https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-fuel-filtration-the-seaboard-way/

Or another guru: http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/fuel-filters-simplified-2/

 

[caltexflanc]

oh horse puckey...

there are many ways of rigging systems on a boat, even newbies know that.

you are a smart, experienced cruiser, but your last pist was not on the mark.

remember, there are other smart, experienced guys besides you here.

We are talking about what the manufacturer of a particular engine specifies, not opinions or short cuts. Add to that actual experts who work with engines every day. It has nothing to do with smarts and experience.

Guys who defend what is a "getting away with it" solution, (as I have to myself many times), are just trying to rationalize being cheap or expedient in a situation or both. Or, just ignorant.

 

[Bigsfish]

Caltex

You misunderstood. I know what progressive filtration is and understand it’s purpose (however I’m not an expert) I just don’t care on saving those few dollars in replacing the primary more often.

 

[caltexflanc]

Caltex

You misunderstood. I know what progressive filtration is and understand it’s purpose (however I’m not an expert) I just don’t care on saving those few dollars in replacing the primary more often.

Read the Athens and/or D'Antonio articles. They explain it all much better than I can.

 

[Bigsfish]

Caltex

I’ve read those articles and even spoken to the engineers at Cat and Cummins and I’m not convinced that running all 2 mic has any disadvantage other than cost. None has been able to convince me otherwise. Believe me if I thought progressive filtration was better and save me money I would jump on it.

 

[Knot Salted]

Well said. I do like and talk to Brian at American Diesel, but in this case, i simply don't think it matters that much.

In addition, Marin wrote a very well articulated case for having the primary be the most restrictive.

And that's the practice i do, 10 micron Racors and I use Fram filters for the engine.

THis system has worked well and in over the three years and a few thousand hours, I have not seen any water or anything in the secondary Frams. (which I only change yearly, but far less than primaries.



Richard on Dauntless

Whoever marin is, does not know anything about physics or in particular, depth loading.
Hello Marin! Wake up!
You never use most restrictive as primary if a secondary exists. NEVER.

 

[BruceK]

Whoever marin(sic) is, does not know anything about physics or in particular, depth loading.
Hello Marin! Wake up!..

Marin would happily argue black was white and vv if so inclined, effectively. But I don`t think you`ll see him respond.
FWIW, I think you are right. Why have a series of 2 micron filters, there is no work to do for any after the first one the fuel encounters.

 

[Knot Salted]

Marin would happily argue black was white and vv if so inclined, effectively. But I don`t think you`ll see him respond.
FWIW, I think you are right. Why have a series of 2 micron filters, there is no work to do for any after the first one the fuel encounters.

On the fuel additive side, it is what I’ve known and re-learned for 27 years.

 

[BruceK]

On the fuel additive side, it is what I’ve known and re-learned for 27 years.

Uh-oh.

 

[smitty477]

FWIW - I worked for a company that came in and cleaned the bottom of those 2,3 and 4 million gallon fuel tanks you see along the NJ and NY roadways near the city. When you went in the tanks the 'crud' was nearly a foot deep in a tank that was more than 150' across. We utilized very large pumping and filtering systems and had the extra problem of a 'no spark' environment. Cleaning fuel means getting all of the larger contaminants and solids out as well as getting to the lowest fine mean sized particle you can achieve. Our contracts called for 10-12 samples taken out of each tank in order to get it 'cleared' to be able to seal it back up. Lessons learned at that job so long ago were very clear - staged filtration is super efficient method as a use of time , money and supplies.
If you really want to add to your fuel system add the vacuum gages and a spin on bulk filter for less than $150 total for both.
Read what commercial 'guys' do , read Tony Athens, read boatdiesel, read published books on diesel engines, read the manufacturers recommended practice, and read what Racor says about their filters.

 

[jleonard]

I use multi-stage filtration. Racor 900 at 30 micron, Racor 500 with 10 Micron, then the on engine elements which I believe are 7 micron.
When I bought this boat the PO was using only the Racor 500 with 2 micron elements. I started out with a case of 2 micron elements and it was not enough to get me home on my delivery voyage.
I added the Racor 900 (I already owned it) and I have never looked back.
Necessary for everyone? no
For me? yes

 

[Bigsfish]

So the question posed is why use two 2micron filter inline (or why use the same size micron filter in line)? The answer is the one filter won’t catch everything. I still see no advantage of progressive filtering other than economy.

Just my SSO.

 

[sunchaser]

So the question posed is why use two 2micron filter inline (or why use the same size micron filter in line)? The answer is the one filter won’t catch everything. I still see no advantage of progressive filtering other than economy.

Just my SSO.

Bigfish

It is not necessary to debate the issue too passionately if you have a low gph Lehman built and nearly half a century ago.

But, if your very nice vessel has JD 1225s or similar, twins to your vessel do as I remember, by the book staged filtration on those expensive engines is well warranted.

Without repeating some excellent points made, posts #45 ( must read articles IMHO) and #55 (by the book current technology application) are worth re-mentioning.

 

[Heron]

Apparently there continue to be believers and non believers in progressive filtration. When I bought my boat it ran just fine and continued to run fine. I decided to change filters to refresh the system, assuming everything was good based on how well she ran. Found I had a fuel issue (asphaltine). This is the primary 27 micron Fleetguard that came out. 5 years and 300 hours according to my review of the PO's logs. It was still passing enough fuel to run perfectly. $12 to replace. The secondary 10 micron racor is in the background...stained but gunk free. Had I had a 2 micron primary (racor etc) I likely would have gone broke throwing filters in... Between chemicals and filtering the Fuel system is now clean and gunk free....The Big micron primary filter was the canary in the coal mine without causing any fuel shut-down distress....

 

[smitty477]

Varradeen

I’m no expert on this stuff and I agree that you will change your primary more often but I use the secondary (both 2 mic) catch what the primary misses. I really like to provide clean Fuel to the engine so if I have to change one primary twice as often it is only a $10.00 bill per engine and I change it once per year. I can afford that.

Which make/model filters do you run and where do you source them for $10?

 

[Heron]

Which make/model filters do you run and where do you source them for $10?

A few more $$, but what I use, Fleetguard FS1242. When I bought 3 a few years back they were a few bucks cheaper. $14.50 is still pretty cheap.

https://puredieselpower.com/class-8-products/cummins-spin-on-fuel-water-separator-fs1242.html