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Old 11-16-2016, 12:53 PM   #41
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I just had similar runaway experience with full coolant. Engine temp never showed overheat but ran at 3000 rpm. Exhaust noise developed. Pulled head. Aft cylinder showed heavy carbon and pitting. Full rebuild required. My runaway was caused by stuck injector pump.
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Old 11-29-2016, 11:52 PM   #42
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I just had similar runaway experience with full coolant. Engine temp never showed overheat but ran at 3000 rpm. Exhaust noise developed. Pulled head. Aft cylinder showed heavy carbon and pitting. Full rebuild required. My runaway was caused by stuck injector pump.
What year/size of engine?

Thanks
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:02 AM   #43
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Not being a " gearhead " and regardless of cause, I would really like to know how does one stop a runaway ? and assuming that one can get to it in time ? FB
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:29 AM   #44
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Not being a " gearhead " and regardless of cause, I would really like to know how does one stop a runaway ? and assuming that one can get to it in time ? FB
There are 3 things necessary for combustion, whether controlled or runaway.
Compression of air, a fuel source and ignition. In a controlled diesel ignition event, the ignition happens as a result of the fuel being injected into super heated, compressed air in the combustion chamber. To stop the engine you simply stop the fuel source.
In a runaway diesel event, the fuel source is sometimes from a stuck rack in the injection pump as in the case of the original post or sometimes it can be lube oil that is coming into the combustion chamber by bad ring seal or even through a breather into the intake air.
If you can not control the source of the fuel the only avenue left may be to control the air.
I've heard of people using rags to choke the air intake of a runaway diesel in order to stop it. The problem is that you only have a precious few moments to act before the engine begins self destructing...
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:41 AM   #45
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Lesson learned
check the oil level before starting engine.
check the oil level before and after working on the fuel delivery system.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #46
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We stopped my 1982 120hp Ford Lehman with a jacket over the air intake.
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:49 AM   #47
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To stop a runaway, how about triggering the halon engine room fire suppression cylinder? Just remember that halon will also suppress breathing, so get yourself up on deck or off the boat quickly.
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:50 PM   #48
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Not being a " gearhead " and regardless of cause, I would really like to know how does one stop a runaway ? and assuming that one can get to it in time ? FB
Rare in a Ford Lehman, common in old Detroit Diesels. As others have said, stop the air supply by covering the intake with something. Easier said than done when crawling on top of engine that is screaming like the banshees from hell.

I believe the newer Lehman's have 'racks' that are lubricated as part of engine oil system. Older units have their own pumps and require separate oil changes.
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Old 11-30-2016, 04:30 PM   #49
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I used to own a motor grader with a Detroit engine (I think it was a 4-53). On the dash, below the shutoff handle, was another handle, labeled in red: "Emergency Stop, Pull In Case Of Runaway". It shut off the air supply to the engine.

I always wondered how common runaways were that the manufacturer felt the need to supply a runaway shutdown!
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:36 PM   #50
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Two ways I have stopped disels that are fail safe.

1) Shut off the fuel valve.

2) Block airflow with a piece off wood or something sturdy and flat.

I try to start diesels, that have sat for a while, with the air intake hose disconnected, so I can block air flow immediately. For me, it's faster than searching for the fuel valve. I always start the engine at the engine, or get someone to operate the controls at the helm.
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Old 12-01-2016, 05:56 AM   #51
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Two ways I have stopped disels that are fail safe.

1) Shut off the fuel valve.

2) Block airflow with a piece off wood or something sturdy and flat.

I try to start diesels, that have sat for a while, with the air intake hose disconnected, so I can block air flow immediately. For me, it's faster than searching for the fuel valve. I always start the engine at the engine, or get someone to operate the controls at the helm.
Closing the fuel wont stop many runaways. They typically occur due to "fuel" coming from in
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Old 12-01-2016, 05:57 AM   #52
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Two ways I have stopped disels that are fail safe.

1) Shut off the fuel valve.

2) Block airflow with a piece off wood or something sturdy and flat.

I try to start diesels, that have sat for a while, with the air intake hose disconnected, so I can block air flow immediately. For me, it's faster than searching for the fuel valve. I always start the engine at the engine, or get someone to operate the controls at the helm.
Closing the fuel valve will not stop many "runaways". They typically occur due to "fuel" coming from a source other than the regular fuel system.
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Old 12-01-2016, 10:50 AM   #53
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I used to own a motor grader with a Detroit engine (I think it was a 4-53). On the dash, below the shutoff handle, was another handle, labeled in red: "Emergency Stop, Pull In Case Of Runaway". It shut off the air supply to the engine.

I always wondered how common runaways were that the manufacturer felt the need to supply a runaway shutdown!

The 2-cycle detroits use blowers to force intake air. The blower's bearings are lubricated by the pressurized engine oil so when their seals fail, they squirt oil directly into the intake air thereby fueling the engine and allowing a runaway condition. I believe in many cases, the seals may leak for some time before there is enough oil being ingested to allow the catastrophic failure but the earliest symptom is oil consumption which is generally masked by Detoits' tendency to leak oil.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:17 PM   #54
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If an engine has been sitting a long time, injection pump plungers can stick due to varnish or whatever, and if one sticks, the rack for the rest is stuck too. If stuck in fueling mode, hit start button and ZOOM.

Whenever I start an engine that has been sitting a long time, I take air filter, silencer or whatever off and keep a block of wood held over the intake, ready to choke it off if needed.

Rare for this to happen on engines in regular service, but can happen.

Good exercise to look at your engine and ask how you would choke off the air. Nice to know what to do and have the tools handy.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:34 PM   #55
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I had a runaway on my 120 Lehman caused by a stuck rack in the injector pump. Engine developed a knock. Pulled the head. Found potting in #6 cylinder. Complete tebuild in process.

FYI these are not "truck" engines. They were initially designed for static industrial use in England then purchased by Ford and marinized.
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:34 PM   #56
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Funny the Marin thread just dies as here is a case where the guy with the most Ford Lehman experts on his pocket would have disagreed with the last statement of Lehman history.

Pretty sure he always insisted the Lehman started as a truck diesel and failed miserably...doing much better in industrial and marine applications.

Sounds like Wikipedia agrees to a point....here is a cut from it....

"The Ford Dorset and Dover engines are a series of inline Ford diesel engines used in vehicles including the Ford Cargo truck between 1981 and 1993. They have continued in production since, for marine and industrial applications. Lehman Brothers of New Jersey are the most famous of the various companies that have marinized the Dorset/Dover engines."

Hard to pinpoint more....no real Internet till tomorrow.
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Old 12-02-2016, 11:28 PM   #57
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...FYI these are not "truck" engines. They were initially designed for static industrial use in England then purchased by Ford and marinized.
As the proud caring owner of twins, I`m interested in what occupies the ER.
"Purchased by Ford"? So, not originally a Ford engine? Who do you say first developed it?
What`s your authority source for that, for the engine starting its life as a "static industrial" engine, and for "these are not truck engines"?
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:02 AM   #58
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Pretty sure he always insisted the Lehman started as a truck diesel and failed miserably...doing much better in industrial and marine applications.
Sounds like Wikipedia agrees to a point....here is a cut from it....
Don't know If I dare disagree with Wiki, if it's on the internet it must be true.
Interesting history of early Ford's by Arthur Ford:



Hi Robert,

Your engine is indeed a Ford engine. It is a Ford 6D of 5416cc (330 cu in.) capacity, 100bhp @ 2500rpm, and 242 lb ft of torque at approx 1500rpm. Your engine is basically a marinized "Thames Trader" engine, built somewhere between '62 and '65. Availability of repair parts is good if you know what to look for, but my reply to the other forum (below) explains in more detail if you care to read through it all.

As one of the posters on the other forum mentions, I'm sure Bepco will also be good for Super Major engine parts (and hence your engine).

Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any further questions.
Arthur Ford

************************************************** ****************************************
My reply to the other forum:

I believe I can offer you some help with your 6 cylinder Ford engine. First though, I'll give you a brief history of the development of the engine, so that you will know what you have got.

Ford (of Britain) launched the "E1A Fordson Major" tractor in 1952 with a new overhead valve 4 cylinder 220 cubic inch diesel. This engine was known as the "4D". Shortly afterwards the "4D" was made available for fitting into the "Thames ET6/7" range of lorries (up to 5 tons payload). There was also a petrol version of this engine of approx 200 cubic inches. The competition however offered 7 tons payload, so Ford needed a new model of lorry to compete. This was known as the "Thames Trader" and was launched in May 1957 with the option of a "4D" or a new "6D" engine depending on the payload. The 6D was simply a 6 cylinder version of the 4D and therefore had a capacity of 330 cubic inches. There was also a petrol version of this engine of approximately 300 cubic inches.

There were effectively 3 flavours of the 4D engine: Agricultural / Automotive / Industrial. The agricultural version didn't rev as quickly as the automotive version - approx 1800rpm instead of approx 2400rpm. The industrial version had slight differences like a decompressor for starting with a handle.

Unlike the 4D, the 6D only had 2 flavours: Automotive / Industrial. A limited number of 6D engines were used in Agriculture by companies like County and Roadless for 6 cylinder 4 wheel drive Fordson Majors. A number were also used in combines / grass drying plant etc, but these were basically Industrial engines being used for agriculture. Ford themselves never really developed an agricultural version of this engine, and never built a 6 cylinder Fordson Major, although many were later converted.

The Fordson Major was produced until 1964, whilst the Thames Trader and Industrial engines were produced until 1965. During the production run of these engines (1952 to 1965), numerous minor changes were made, although the engines retained their basic design and dimensions throughout, with many of the parts being interchangable across the years. Some of the more significant changes include:
-- The launch of the Mk2 engine in 1957, which amongst other changes had "high crown" pistons, and a thicker head gasket.
-- The sealing of the (wet) cylinder liners with two O-rings in 1961. One at the top, one at the bottom. Previously only one O-ring had been used at the bottom.
-- The use of a Simms Minimec mechanically governed fuel pump instead of the previous vacuum governed Simms pump in 1962.

With the launch of the Mk2 Thames Trader in 1962, the 6D engine was fitted with the "FL" cylinder head. The 4D had the "FL" head from 1963. Please see the following link for further details of the "FL" head (courtesy of Steven B). Brian, The FL Head. Here is all the info I have scraped up.

In April 1965 Ford launched the "D-series" lorry to replace the Thames Trader. Contrary to popular opinion, these lorries didn't have a "beefed-up" 6D, they had a whole new range of engines. These new engines had dry cylinder liners and a new block / cylinder head / sump etc. The first of these engines were offered in 330 & 360 cubic inch configuration, and a Turbo 360 was offered in 1968. The automotive versions of these engines were fitted in the lorries on a slant. The Ford Cargo replaced the D-series. The majority of marinized Ford 6 cylinders diesels that you will see nowadays are based on D-series / Cargo engines. The old "Thames Trader" engine (which you have) are scarcer to find now. The easiest way to identify the "4D / 6D" engines from the later engines is the external drive shaft to the injection pump.

On the 4D engine, either a nylon or a rubber coupling will be found as an injection pump drive shaft coupling. The injection pump drive exits the block from the timing gears, through the aforementioned coupling to the injection pump. On the 6D engine a drive shaft of approx 6 inches length is used to connect the pump to the timing gears. On both the 4D & 6D engines, the drive will be seen rotating whilst the engine is running.

The later D-series / Cargo engines however have the pump mounted directly to the timing gears and no moving parts will be seen whilst the engine is running.

Ford themselves never produced a marine version of their engines, however many industrial engines were marinized by third party companies. Going by the part numbers you have given, you have a marinized Ford 6D.

Judging from the cylinder head part number you have given (510E 6050-E FL), your engine dates from between 1962 (introduction of FL cylinder head) and 1965 (end of production).

I hope this helps you to understand what engine you have.

With regards parts availability, these engines are fairly easy to get bits for. A significant number of Fordson Major tractors are still in use around the world, and a large number have also been preserved / restored. Consequently, a lot of parts are being remanufactured for the Fordson Major, which don't forget is just a 4 cylinder version of your engine.

It should be easy to get hold of Valves, Valve guides, Pistons, Liners, Small end bearings, big end shells, main bearing shells, crank seals, water pumps etc. since they are all used on the "4D". Parts specifically for the 6D might not be quite so easy to get hold of, although they shouldn't pose too many problems.

The industrial engines were designated 589E, 590E, 591E, 592E for the 6 cylinder petrol, 6 cylinder diesel, 4 cylinder petrol, 4 cylinder diesel respectively. The Thames Trader 5 ton diesel (RHD) was denoted 510E, and the Thames Trader 5 ton petrol (RHD) was denoted 508E. The Fordson Major was designated the E1A.

So in general when looking for parts, try to find parts that start with either 508E (in the case of parts common with the 6 cyl. petrol eg. crank shaft), 510E (in the case of parts specific to the 6 cyl. diesel), or E1A (E1ADDN / E1ADKN) in the case of parts common with the 4 cylinder. Avoid parts that begin with a 2700E number (eg. 2703E / 2704E etc.), since these refer to the later D-series / Cargo type engine.

Firms that you may wish to look at include:
**VAPORMATIC (UK / Worldwide)
http://www.vapormatic.com
Navigate to the "Tractor & Machinery section", then to the "Ford New Holland" section, then to the "Super Major" section (since your engine was built whilst the Fordson Super Majors were being built). You should see Valves, Pistons, Rings, Liners, Water Pumps, Crank front & rear seals, shell bearings etc. They also have dynamos and dynamo brush sets (I dont know if your engine has a dynamo).

**MANEKLAL EXPORTS (India)
crankshaft, crank shaft for tractor, truck, car, vehicle, automobile - Maneklal Auto Spares (Exports)
This firm manufactures crankshafts for the 6 cylinder Thames Trader engine.

**KING ENGINE BEARINGS (Israel / USA)
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan330.htm
This company offers shell bearings for the 6D (590E) engine.

**RING GEAR (New Zealand)
Ring Gear R Us - Our Products
This company offers starter rings to fit on the flywheel.

**MARINE CLUB
http://onepageinternet.com/tradboatengines
Have a manual for the 590e to borrow.

**Old20Parts
Most Parts for Most Tractors & Farm Machinery - OLD 20 Parts Company
Navigate to 'Product Search' and then choose Fordson, Engine Parts.

**EMMARK UK Ltd.
Tractor Engine Parts | Massey Ferguson Tractor Parts
Page 60 of the pdf document above lists engine parts for the Super Major engine, (all of which will fit the 6D except the oil pump and gaskets).

One of the weaknesses of these engines compared to the D-series/Cargo engines is that as they age, they can tend to let coolant into the sump. This is usually caused either by a leaky cylinder liner (rusted through from the water jacket side), or corrosion of the cylinder block where the lower sealing ring should seal. It is important therefore to use anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitors to prevent corrosion and consequent leakage. This isn't really a problem with the later engines since they use a dry liner.

In summary, these are good engines if they are given a regular oil change (approx 200-250 hours), operated at their correct temperature and with a good antifreeze solution. They combine ease of starting, reliability, long engine life, simplicity and have a relatively good parts supply. I wish you well with your engine.

Arthur Ford

Edited: Thursday March 01, 2007 at 01:32 by Arthur
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:06 AM   #59
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Well if Wiki says Ford's failed as a truck, engine, then it must be true.
Arthur Ford posted a history of early Ford engines:


Hi Robert,

I have just answered the same question on another forum (http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/viewtopic.php?t=614&), but I have included my reply below for you to read in case you can't see the other forum etc.

Your engine is indeed a Ford engine. It is a Ford 6D of 5416cc (330 cu in.) capacity, 100bhp @ 2500rpm, and 242 lb ft of torque at approx 1500rpm. Your engine is basically a marinized "Thames Trader" engine, built somewhere between '62 and '65. Availability of repair parts is good if you know what to look for, but my reply to the other forum (below) explains in more detail if you care to read through it all.

As one of the posters on the other forum mentions, I'm sure Bepco will also be good for Super Major engine parts (and hence your engine).

Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any further questions.
Arthur Ford

************************************************** ****************************************
My reply to the other forum:

I believe I can offer you some help with your 6 cylinder Ford engine. First though, I'll give you a brief history of the development of the engine, so that you will know what you have got.

Ford (of Britain) launched the "E1A Fordson Major" tractor in 1952 with a new overhead valve 4 cylinder 220 cubic inch diesel. This engine was known as the "4D". Shortly afterwards the "4D" was made available for fitting into the "Thames ET6/7" range of lorries (up to 5 tons payload). There was also a petrol version of this engine of approx 200 cubic inches. The competition however offered 7 tons payload, so Ford needed a new model of lorry to compete. This was known as the "Thames Trader" and was launched in May 1957 with the option of a "4D" or a new "6D" engine depending on the payload. The 6D was simply a 6 cylinder version of the 4D and therefore had a capacity of 330 cubic inches. There was also a petrol version of this engine of approximately 300 cubic inches.

There were effectively 3 flavours of the 4D engine: Agricultural / Automotive / Industrial. The agricultural version didn't rev as quickly as the automotive version - approx 1800rpm instead of approx 2400rpm. The industrial version had slight differences like a decompressor for starting with a handle.

Unlike the 4D, the 6D only had 2 flavours: Automotive / Industrial. A limited number of 6D engines were used in Agriculture by companies like County and Roadless for 6 cylinder 4 wheel drive Fordson Majors. A number were also used in combines / grass drying plant etc, but these were basically Industrial engines being used for agriculture. Ford themselves never really developed an agricultural version of this engine, and never built a 6 cylinder Fordson Major, although many were later converted.

The Fordson Major was produced until 1964, whilst the Thames Trader and Industrial engines were produced until 1965. During the production run of these engines (1952 to 1965), numerous minor changes were made, although the engines retained their basic design and dimensions throughout, with many of the parts being interchangable across the years. Some of the more significant changes include:
-- The launch of the Mk2 engine in 1957, which amongst other changes had "high crown" pistons, and a thicker head gasket.
-- The sealing of the (wet) cylinder liners with two O-rings in 1961. One at the top, one at the bottom. Previously only one O-ring had been used at the bottom.
-- The use of a Simms Minimec mechanically governed fuel pump instead of the previous vacuum governed Simms pump in 1962.

With the launch of the Mk2 Thames Trader in 1962, the 6D engine was fitted with the "FL" cylinder head. The 4D had the "FL" head from 1963. Please see the following link for further details of the "FL" head (courtesy of Steven B). Brian, The FL Head. Here is all the info I have scraped up.

In April 1965 Ford launched the "D-series" lorry to replace the Thames Trader. Contrary to popular opinion, these lorries didn't have a "beefed-up" 6D, they had a whole new range of engines. These new engines had dry cylinder liners and a new block / cylinder head / sump etc. The first of these engines were offered in 330 & 360 cubic inch configuration, and a Turbo 360 was offered in 1968. The automotive versions of these engines were fitted in the lorries on a slant. The Ford Cargo replaced the D-series. The majority of marinized Ford 6 cylinders diesels that you will see nowadays are based on D-series / Cargo engines. The old "Thames Trader" engine (which you have) are scarcer to find now. The easiest way to identify the "4D / 6D" engines from the later engines is the external drive shaft to the injection pump.

On the 4D engine, either a nylon or a rubber coupling will be found as an injection pump drive shaft coupling. The injection pump drive exits the block from the timing gears, through the aforementioned coupling to the injection pump. On the 6D engine a drive shaft of approx 6 inches length is used to connect the pump to the timing gears. On both the 4D & 6D engines, the drive will be seen rotating whilst the engine is running.

The later D-series / Cargo engines however have the pump mounted directly to the timing gears and no moving parts will be seen whilst the engine is running.

Ford themselves never produced a marine version of their engines, however many industrial engines were marinized by third party companies. Going by the part numbers you have given, you have a marinized Ford 6D.

Judging from the cylinder head part number you have given (510E 6050-E FL), your engine dates from between 1962 (introduction of FL cylinder head) and 1965 (end of production).

I hope this helps you to understand what engine you have.

With regards parts availability, these engines are fairly easy to get bits for. A significant number of Fordson Major tractors are still in use around the world, and a large number have also been preserved / restored. Consequently, a lot of parts are being remanufactured for the Fordson Major, which don't forget is just a 4 cylinder version of your engine.

It should be easy to get hold of Valves, Valve guides, Pistons, Liners, Small end bearings, big end shells, main bearing shells, crank seals, water pumps etc. since they are all used on the "4D". Parts specifically for the 6D might not be quite so easy to get hold of, although they shouldn't pose too many problems.

The industrial engines were designated 589E, 590E, 591E, 592E for the 6 cylinder petrol, 6 cylinder diesel, 4 cylinder petrol, 4 cylinder diesel respectively. The Thames Trader 5 ton diesel (RHD) was denoted 510E, and the Thames Trader 5 ton petrol (RHD) was denoted 508E. The Fordson Major was designated the E1A.

So in general when looking for parts, try to find parts that start with either 508E (in the case of parts common with the 6 cyl. petrol eg. crank shaft), 510E (in the case of parts specific to the 6 cyl. diesel), or E1A (E1ADDN / E1ADKN) in the case of parts common with the 4 cylinder. Avoid parts that begin with a 2700E number (eg. 2703E / 2704E etc.), since these refer to the later D-series / Cargo type engine.

Firms that you may wish to look at include:
**VAPORMATIC (UK / Worldwide)
http://www.vapormatic.com
Navigate to the "Tractor & Machinery section", then to the "Ford New Holland" section, then to the "Super Major" section (since your engine was built whilst the Fordson Super Majors were being built). You should see Valves, Pistons, Rings, Liners, Water Pumps, Crank front & rear seals, shell bearings etc. They also have dynamos and dynamo brush sets (I dont know if your engine has a dynamo).

**MANEKLAL EXPORTS (India)
crankshaft, crank shaft for tractor, truck, car, vehicle, automobile - Maneklal Auto Spares (Exports)
This firm manufactures crankshafts for the 6 cylinder Thames Trader engine.

**KING ENGINE BEARINGS (Israel / USA)
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan330.htm
This company offers shell bearings for the 6D (590E) engine.

**RING GEAR (New Zealand)
Ring Gear R Us - Our Products
This company offers starter rings to fit on the flywheel.

**MARINE CLUB
http://onepageinternet.com/tradboatengines
Have a manual for the 590e to borrow.

**Old20Parts
Most Parts for Most Tractors & Farm Machinery - OLD 20 Parts Company
Navigate to 'Product Search' and then choose Fordson, Engine Parts.

**EMMARK UK Ltd.
Tractor Engine Parts | Massey Ferguson Tractor Parts
Page 60 of the pdf document above lists engine parts for the Super Major engine, (all of which will fit the 6D except the oil pump and gaskets).

One of the weaknesses of these engines compared to the D-series/Cargo engines is that as they age, they can tend to let coolant into the sump. This is usually caused either by a leaky cylinder liner (rusted through from the water jacket side), or corrosion of the cylinder block where the lower sealing ring should seal. It is important therefore to use anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitors to prevent corrosion and consequent leakage. This isn't really a problem with the later engines since they use a dry liner.

In summary, these are good engines if they are given a regular oil change (approx 200-250 hours), operated at their correct temperature and with a good antifreeze solution. They combine ease of starting, reliability, long engine life, simplicity and have a relatively good parts supply. I wish you well with your engine.

Arthur Ford
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:14 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
If an engine has been sitting a long time, injection pump plungers can stick due to varnish or whatever, and if one sticks, the rack for the rest is stuck too. If stuck in fueling mode, hit start button and ZOOM.

Whenever I start an engine that has been sitting a long time, I take air filter, silencer or whatever off and keep a block of wood held over the intake, ready to choke it off if needed.

Rare for this to happen on engines in regular service, but can happen.

Good exercise to look at your engine and ask how you would choke off the air. Nice to know what to do and have the tools handy.
Ski, is this an issue primarily with the FL120 or does it also apply to the 135? Mine will have been sitting for approx. 22 months when I attempt to fire them up next April and I'd like to know what to plan for. Thanx!
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