Flo Scan

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I see it as a tool, not the only tool but it seems to be one that is used alot, perhaps not everyone needs it or likes it, but then again we all don't own the same style or type boat. I'm sure over the years we all get to know the best run rate for our engines, hull design and areas that we visit most.* I started asking this question because I'm new to diesels and this thing has 6v92's which LOOK huge to me, so any tool that can improve my learning curve, I appreciate. I'm sure after a few years and many miles I'll be a handle on the best way to run these engines. But just out of the gate, appreciate the comments. This is a a great place to learn alot quickly, Like being at one big marina, just wish I had a beer to be out walking the docks and talking to everyone, but I guess in December this is the next best thing. Thanks for the input. If the budget allows after I get done with the boat yard and engine mechanic, I'll install a set of flo scans. Maybe Santa will surprise me...
 
The floscans I had indicated the fluel flow in real time and also included a resetable "totalizer" which keeps a running track of how many gallons have been consumed. Once this is calibrated you will know just how much fuel you have burned and of course how much you have in the tanks. This feature alone has always been useful to me.
Steve W.
 
A few examples of what FloScan can show you.

As you establish your boat's sweet spot, taking advantage of the fuel savings it provides, make note of the fuel consumption at a variety of RPM levels. If you know that your boat burns 17 gallons-per-hour at 4200 RPM under normal conditions and the fuel consumption suddenly changes by a few gallons in either direction, it's a signal that something is wrong. A drop of a few gallons-per-hour is not a gift from the boating gods, it usually indicates a clogged injector nozzle. You might not feel it in the engine's performance, but you can see it on the FloScan's readout as plain as day. Left unchecked it can cause one or more cylinders to run lean and overheat. In a four-stroke engine, you might get away with just burning an exhaust valve, which requires a costly top-end rebuild. In a two-stroke, the result can be even worse-a burned piston. And then it's time to replace the entire short block.Say you're running and notice that at 4200 RPM, instead of the normal 17 gallons-per-hour, the FloScan indicates a jump to 25. It could indicate a dangerous fuel leak near or on the engine, which can lead to a fire or with a gasoline engine even an explosion. A less dramatic increase to 20 gallons-per-hour is indicative of damage to the propeller. Minor damage to a propeller blade doesn't always create an imbalance, which can be felt as a vibration, but it can still increase fuel consumption considerably. A dinged blade can decrease efficiency enough to cause the boat to burn 10 to 20 percent more fuel at cruising speeds.

Fot those who are interested, there are more examples here:

FloScan Article

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 16th of December 2010 10:30:40 AM
 
SeaHorse II wrote:As usual, when someone doesn't agree with your post, you resort to personal
attacks.

You've completely missed the point. The point is, when knowledgeable about
what FloScan is and can do for you, it's not just about how much fuel you've
burned and how much you have left. Like radar and the MFD chart plotters,
there is so much more to these devices than simply turning them on and
and seeing the little boat on a map.
Sorry you felt personally attacked.*

My point was that most folks generally start the engine after changing fuel or oil filters to make sure they aren't leaking, rather than relying on a guage to break the news to them that their bilge is filling up with diesel.* I probably check the ER when underway about every 30 minutes, again rather than relying on guages to alert me to issues.* I like my Floscan, but doubt I need it to tell me my prop is out of balance since the vibration would be a telltale, especially after hitting whatever dinged the prop.* Clogged fuel nozzles will show themselves with excessive smoke, rough idling and hesitant acceleration probably more clearly than a change in fuel consumption.* And like you, I agree that operating a vessel is more than starting them up and looking at guages.* Including the Floscan, which is a useful device but hardly a substitute for common sense.

*
 
Delfin wrote:1. My point was that most folks generally start the engine after changing fuel or oil filters to make sure they aren't leaking, rather than relying on a guage to break the news to them that their bilge is filling up with diesel.

2. ....but doubt I need it to tell me my prop is out of balance since the vibration would be a telltale, especially after hitting whatever dinged the prop.

*
1.* It's been my experience that sh*t happens and it's not always predictable.* Hoses crack, seals start to leak, vibration takes its toll on connections, you name it.* You can't count on problems appearing when you're standing or squatting in front of the hardware that's going to have the problem.* Even if you inspect the engine room every thirty minutes, what about the thing that craps out fifteen minutes after*your last visit?* A lot of fuel can leak or spray out during the fifteen minutes before your next visit.* A fire can get going really good in the next fifteen minutes.* And so on.



2.* Not something you can count on, however.* After some nine years of using our boat we took the four-bladed*props into the best prop shop in Seattle as part of the process of*having to buy (we thought)*new props.* What the shop determined was that our current props were a disaster.* We had never hit anything.* But they had been hiddeously set up by the last person to work on them, which would have been in the San Francisco Bay area prior to our buying the boat.

Both props were out of balance, some of the blades were slightly shorter than others, the pitch of each blade on each prop was different than the pitch of the other blades, a big section of one blade on one of the props*wasn't even moving water at cruise speed.* They explained to me how improperly using an outdated method of adjusting prop blades probably resulted in all these problems.

But, they said, the props were fine physically.* No need to replace them.* They trimmed the blades to all be the same length, pitched them all correctly, and balanced them.* All using state-of-the art computer-based equipment.

But..... in the nine years prior to this being done we had never experienced even the slightest amount of vibration.* You could put your hand on the shafts at cruise speed and feel nothing--- no wiggle, no shake, no vibration--- nothing.* So a lack of vibration does not automatically mean all is well with the propellers.

Walt's point about*a Flo-Scan providing information that can give you clues about multiple aspects of*your drive train's condition and performance*is totally valid.* We don't have Flo-Scans on our our engines, not because we believe they are of little or no value, but because we don't have Flo-Scans on our engines.* If we had them I'm sure we would learn to*incorporate their information into all the other things we use to keep track of what's going on under the cabin sole--- gauges, smells, sounds, and feel.

We have a slow boat.* One could make a theoretical*case that we don't really*need radar since we are just sort of creeping along.* Or a plotter.* We're going slow enough that we could use depth soundings and the compass to keep track of where we are.* (I know one sailboater who actually does this.)* But we get a lot of good information from the radar and the plotters even though we don't actually need them to run the boat from Point A to Point B.* I see a Flo-Scan as one more tool to help paint the big picture.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 16th of December 2010 07:44:29 PM
 
Marin, your props were "improperly set up", and needed to be tuned.* What was described was using a FloScan to detect a change in fuel consumption as a result of a change in the prop.* To affect fuel consumption, something more than improper pitch years old would be required.* I like Floscan.* I have a Floscan.* I want to keep my Floscan.* However, barring mechanical problems relatively easily detectable from other symptoms, the Floscan tells me nothing that the prop demand fuel consumption table for the engine tells me, or at least that has been my experience.

The idea that one would use the Floscan to diagnose the range of problems described is like saying you would use the softness of your butter as an indication that your house is on fire.* Asking a bit much of the device, or so it seems to me.

Sorry if I have offended suggesting otherwise.
 
Delfin wrote:

The idea that one would use the Floscan to diagnose the range of problems described is like saying you would use the softness of your butter as an indication that your house is on fire.* Asking a bit much of the device, or so it seems to me.
In some situations, the softness of a stick of butter could very well indicate a heat problem if one happened to notice what the butter was doing and wondered why.* An awful lot of problems have been discovered and subsequently resolved*because somebody noticed something unexpected or*puzzling*was happening, wondered why, and investigated further.**It happens every day in the company I work for.

I suspect it comes down to individual ability.* Some people understand and can interpret data--- be it what comes from a computer application, a sensor, a "funny noise," an unusual smell, you name it--- better than others.**For me to*assume that because I can't interpret data I'm reading,*seeing, hearing, smelling,*or feeling**means nobody else*can either*is perhaps more a reflection on my own abilities-- or lack of them---*in a particular case than on someone else's.

*
 
A few of us on this forum have the nicety of a "walk in" ER. This nicety allows us to monitor things by eye while underway. So every crucial spot gets a look, IR temp gun readings, feel for vibration, fuel and water line checks etc.

In a vessel with only hatch access, specialized gauges for monitoring things can indeed be a lifesaver. Although using a floscan to spot leaks seems a bit of a stretch, if that brings comfort, so be it.

This past week, on my vessel,*an exhaust elbow was noted to*have a bit of a drip during operation. Oh - Oh, replacement time is here. Other than eyes, few techniques are available for picking up minor things (although 2 new special build 316 elbows are not cheap) before they turn into major.

So cameras, floscans, prayer beads or whatever are sometimes very helpful for non walk in ERs to*catch the odd happenings.
 
Good point, Tom.* Walk in ERs should be 'walked in' regularly, but absent that luxury, additional ways of monitoring what is going on are helpful, certainly including accurate measurements of fuel consumption.* That said, I'm still scratching my head trying to think up an adverse condition a Floscan would pick up that sentience wouldn't, but maybe I lack imagination.
 
Marin wrote:But we get a lot of good information from the radar and the plotters even though we don't actually need them to run the boat from Point A to Point B.* I see a Flo-Scan as one more tool to help paint the big picture.
Yes, the "big picture" is the point, isn't it.

When I was flying, we called the "big picture" SA. (situational awareness) The
whole point of developing a good scan of the instrument panel was to improve our
"situational awareness."

We didn't really need a gyro compass, omni, GPS, autopilot, etc. to fly the plane,
all we really needed was an artificial horizon, needle ball, compass , watch, map
and an airspeed indicator.* (A good winds aloft forecast was helpful too!) Later, we
were exposed to all kinds of instruments, many of which didn't improve our flight
skills but DID improve our SA.


When navigating a boat, I don't think a 1 hour or 30 minute peek inside the
engine room constitutes good SA. As Marin pointed out...After leaving the engine
room, if you feel safe for another 30-60 minutes, that nothing is going to go
wrong, roll the dice and enjoy yourself! Not only do I open the hatch (I don't have
a walk in ER) every hour or so to CONFIRM what my instruments are telling me, I
get a pretty damn good idea as to how the machinery is working with the camera,
FloScan and all the other instruments EVERY TIME I SCAN. I don't wait 30-60
minutes to find out that all hell is breaking loose down below. But that's just me!
And to quote Forrest Gump..."that's all I have to say about that!"




*
 
Wow, I can't imagine needing to do an engine room inspection every 30 minutes. On a weeks worth of cruising on the ICW at an average of 8 hours per day under way, that computes to 16 times per day and 112 times over the course of a week. That certainly would take all of the fun out of cruising. If my confidence in my boat and monitoring equipment was that low, I would just not leave the dock. We do regular inspections of the engine compartment while under way, but usually only about twice per day and sometimes only once. Chuck
 
I also check the engine room and bilge about ever 30 minutes as the entrance is quick and easy.* I feel the 671 exchange/manifold, check under the engine and fuel tank for fluid, check the Racor vacuum gauges, feel the raw water hoses on the gens and 671, and do a general inspection.* Some long range boats have a check list.* I have noticed/found problems long be for the gauges would have told me.
 
So there you have it - those who don't have walk in ERs think routine ER inspections are largely*a waste of time.* Delfin and Phil, quick lock your ER doors while under way!*

As a female participant on*the Biggest Loser opined, "My husband said he loved me when I was fat, but he lusts after me now that I'm thin and curvaceous. I like lust!"
 
Constantly checking the engine room?* Sounds like paranoia.* Well, perhaps I should stop along the freeway every hour to check tire pressure, open the hood, and look under the car.
 
markpierce wrote:

Constantly checking the engine room?* Sounds like paranoia.* Well, perhaps I should stop along the freeway every hour to check tire pressure, open the hood, and look under the car.
If you car breaks you just pull over If your boat breaks you wind up on the rocks or left without power a wave swamps you and you go down. Worst case i'm sure but a little parinoia goes a long way.

SD

*
 
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. As I said, I do engine compartment checks regularly, but IMO there reaches a point where you spend all of your time being safe (paranoid) and very little time enjoying the fruits of cruising. There is a balance there somewhere. Chuck
 
Fuel blockage would be my greatest concern, especially crossing a bar at a harbor's entrance.* I can see checking the filter(s) at the beginning of each voyage and after 24 hours of continuous use, but*a peek-a-boo won't disclose problems like a timing belt about to go bad, etc.** I'm not about to open the engine hatch in the pilothouse floor routinely every half hour or so.*
 
My walk in ER checks take*about 4 minutes. I also do a deck walk around and lift the the lazz hatch to check rudders at least once per day. I do the ER check at the start and end on short runs and every 2 hours on long day runs. Buy an IR temp gun and you'll quickly see where all the fun is to be had. How many of you monitor shaft log, exhaust water, oil pan*or transmission**temps? If I were boating on the ICW or other crowded places where boattowUS works, I'd be less attentive. Dude and Delfin know well the pitfalls of an issue in the far reaches of the tide, fog and current rich PNW. Plus, it is great fun for a gear head to be around rotating and working equipment.

I've done the beach and babes scene too. I never knew the boat had engines as my head swiveled.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 17th of December 2010 12:54:48 PM
 
Got gauges?* My builder says the Coot has "Tack, oil pressure water, temperature, battery volt meter, exhaust pyrometer (added by us), hi temp/low oil warning buzzer."* I'm having a FloScan added.* Am I missing something major?
 
markpierce wrote:

Got gauges?* My builder says the Coot has "Tack, oil pressure water, temperature, battery volt meter, exhaust pyrometer (added by us), hi temp/low oil warning buzzer."* I'm having a FloScan added.* Am I missing something major?
You might want to add an amp meter.* Tells you what the load is on the electrical system.* The volt meter doesn't do this.* Since you're a single engine boat--- and if you have a standard raw-water/heat exhanger cooling system--- an instrument highly recommended on the Grand Banks forum is a raw water monitor.* This will indicate immediately if your cooling water flow is interrupted for any reason.* A number of GB owners on the forum have installed a temperature sensor on the exhaust elbow(s).* This will also indicate right away if the flow of raw cooling water has been lost.

As to hi temp/low oil warning sensors and buzzers I have no faith in them at all.* Like most alarms (and fuses) their primary purpose is to let you know that the component they are monitoring or protecting has just failed.* Our boat has the hi temp, low oil pressure, etc alarms but we operate the boat as though it didn't have them.* I'm not saying don't put them on.* Just don't rely on them.* Your instruments, eyes, nose, ears, and soles of your feet (vibration) are far more reliable and will tell you things long before the alarms will.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 17th of December 2010 01:40:53 PM
 
Nope Mark, I don't have continuous read dash gauges for shaft seal temp, exhaust water temp, transmission oil*temp or engine oil temp. Doesn't sound like you do either. An IR gun is about 50 bucks.

Here is a different question, how big should a vessel be before you elect to routinely do ER checks?
 
Marin wrote:

You might want to add an amp meter.*...
I think I see two electrical meters on this earlier-built Coot:

682952_7.jpg


*
 
Racor makes a drain the water idiot light,* or how about a transmission oil temp guage.* If you have hydraulics* how about a pressure guage.

SD
 
sunchaser wrote:... how big should a vessel be before you elect to routinely do ER checks?

*Big enouh to have an enclosed engine room.
 
markpierce wrote:

Got gauges?* My builder says the Coot has "Tack, oil pressure water, temperature, battery volt meter, exhaust pyrometer (added by us), hi temp/low oil warning buzzer."* I'm having a FloScan added.* Am I missing something major?
What gear do you have?* You might think about transmission oil and pressure.* Very inconvenient when you burn them up.

One of my favorites is wind speed/direction.* Kind of expensive, but well worth the cost IMHO.

Next up is potable/gray/black water guages and rudder indicator (essential).*** I have no ammeter because there is a Link 2000 that provides that and a great deal more information.* Attached is a section drawing of our primary gauge cluster.



*
 
The boat comes with sight gauges for the fuel tanks, and I'm paying extra for a holding-tank gauge and a rudder indicator.
 
sunchaser wrote:

1.* An IR gun is about 50 bucks.

2.* Here is a different question, how big should a vessel be before you elect to routinely do ER checks?
1. While an IR gun is a valuable tool, it only works if someone is holding it, has it turned on, and it's aiming at something.*

We don't have any sort of raw water cooling monitor system on our boat, but I can see the value.* I would pick that over an IR gun simply because if you loose your raw water cooling for any reason--- blocked intake, failed hose, impeller failure, etc---- engines like the FL120 will overheat rapidly and I've been told by people very familiar with the base Ford engine, both here and in England, that the absolute surest way to kill the engine is to overheat it.* According to them the Ford Dorset engine (base engine of the FL120) will not tolerate a serious overheat condition for more than a minute or two before some catastrphic failure will occur.* This is one reason the engine was such a dismal failure in the late 1950s in it's designed purpose as a truck engine.*

So at any sign of the begining of an overheat an FL120 should be shut down immediately.* A raw water monitor of some sort will provide this advance warning.

Since the chances are remote the raw water system will fail in some way when you're aiming an IR gun at it--- unless you station yourself in the engine room during the entire voyage-- a raw water alarm seems to me to be the way to go.

2. I think ER checks have more to do with the boater than the boat.* I've known people in Hawaii who did regular checks of the outboards on their boats during a fishing trip.* And I've known people with larger cruisers who never did any engine checks at all and simply called their mechanic when something "didn't work right."

We remove the covers of the outboards on our 17' Arima after a fishing trip--- be it a one day trip or a week's worth of trips up north--- mainly to look them over and spray them down with WD40.* And to fog them if they're going to be sitting for awhile.* But other than that we don't do anything with them in terms of checks.

We check the engines in the GB before every start to make sure the oil looks okay, coolant, no leaks, no obvious problems, and so on.* And depending on my interest I usually do an engine room check after we've been underway for a couple of hours.* But that's about it.

In my opinion there's really not all that much that can go wrong down there unless there are worn-out or neglected components like hoses, filter seals, belts, pump impellers, etc.* The engines in our boat were designed as vehicle engines in the 1950s, and as such there's really not that much to them.* We had an injector pipe crack-- the engine continued to run smoothly but smell of diesel alerted us to he problem (yet one more reason we never run the boat from the flying bridge.)*

The raw water system bears some paying attention to simply because it's pumping a fluid that's trying to destroy it in terms of rust and/or corrosion.* We've had raw water problems a few times and a failed (leaking) engine coolant pump.* In all those cases, the coolant temp gauge began to creep up so we shut the engine down, tied off the shaft, and finished the trip on one engine.* The raw water system bears some paying attention to simply because it's pumping a fluid that's trying to destroy it in terms of rust and/or corrosion.

But our engine, fuel, and electrical systems are very simple.* Boats with more complex systems most likely require more monitoring, either in person or with sensors, cameras, etc.

But I think how often a boater checks the engine room or space or box is totally a matter of what makes that boater comfortable.* Gear heads may enjoy getting down amongst the machinery.* Others may simply want to make sure their engine's don't overheat or stop charging the batteries.* So I don't think there is any right or wrong answer to "how often do you check your engine room?"




-- Edited by Marin on Friday 17th of December 2010 03:27:26 PM
 

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I also count noses, check the roof/deck, lazaret/stern deck and since*the engine room is close and easy to pop in an out of, why not?**Just something I have done and in the habit of doing.* Also with the auto pilot*and electronic charts it gets so boring, so I do something to keep awake.**We do have a large dinett in the pilot house that my wife usually falls asleept on. ***

If the engine room was not easy access then maybe not as often, but on a reguilar bases.* I agree a boat is not like a car where you can pull along side the road.* I would not have a command bridge again that would keep me away from*passenger, engine room and general access of the boat.* ***
 
"Attached is a section drawing of our primary gauge cluster."

They say that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything but I just have to say that that panel is like some of those seen on homebuilt aircraft. Some people think guages are cool so the builder tries to find a place for every guage he collected during the build.

As a long time guage gazer I would prefer to see the guages that matter grouped together in a rational manner so a quick scan will show what you need to know just by the positiion of the indicators ... you really don't need to read the numbers every time your eyes pass over the real estate, you look for patterns and changes in the patterns. Put your temperatures together near your pressures, side by side or vertical.

Do you really need to scan your blackwater level or potable and gray water contents? Are they changing that quickly that you need to know RIGHT NOW? That panel is pretty valuable real estate to fill up with a septic tank guage.

It's your boat so it's your choice but using it for an example isn't doing anyone any favors.

That's my 2 cents on that subject ...
 

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