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11-10-2020, 04:51 AM
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#21
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Enigma
City: Slicker?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,565
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Greetings,
Mr. jb. "...seems every time I "solve" a problem it uncovers a new one." I call that project creep. Welcome to the world of boating! Yup. Clean up that teak on the bulkhead and it makes the bracket look messy. Clean up the bracket and now the upholstery is the wrong colour. Re-do the upholstery and the curtains don't match. Replace the curtains and "Dag-nabbit! should have put in Venetian blinds..." There are no problems, only solutions. It will take time and patience to get to know your new mistress. Be patient.
"That observation should bring a chuckle..." I, for one, am NOT chuckling at all. I feel your pain and frustration. Boat maintenance seems like a never ending series of "Oh no. What now's" BUT, it does get better. Trust me on this one.
Take this bit of advice from a not so experienced hand. Everything will get done. Pretty well everything takes time and money. Not everything has to be done right away and when it comes right down to it, this is about the most fun you can have with your pants on.
__________________
RTF
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11-10-2020, 06:50 AM
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#22
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Guru
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,037
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"pedantic" I learned a new word today. I never heard or read that one before.
One thing I am a little anal about is knowing engine coolant temperature.
Always verified with a temp gun right at the sender. When it starts to be inaccurate I change sender and gauges.
Last time I made the change on my Lehman, I searched and found a gage that had a mark at 180 F because I don't like to interpolate.
But that's me. YMMV
__________________
Jay Leonard
Ex boats: 1983 40 Albin trunk cabin, 1978 Mainship 34 Model 1
New Port Richey, Fl
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11-10-2020, 07:53 AM
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#23
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,186
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In a new to you boat suggest a removal, pressure check and clean out of both transmission and engine heat exchangers. Also, replace both raw water impellers and check pump innards. Any clues as to age of engine coolant? If unsure or older than three years change coolant out too.
Then you can be be reasonably sure that trouble shooting the temperature discrepancy is chasing areas of lesser concern than a potential over heat situation.
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11-10-2020, 07:08 PM
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#24
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Veteran Member
City: Semiahmoo
Vessel Name: Ardeidae
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
In a new to you boat suggest a removal, pressure check and clean out of both transmission and engine heat exchangers. Also, replace both raw water impellers and check pump innards. Any clues as to age of engine coolant? If unsure or older than three years change coolant out too.
Then you can be be reasonably sure that trouble shooting the temperature discrepancy is chasing areas of lesser concern than a potential over heat situation.
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Thanks for the suggestions. The heat exchangers (all six) were replaced with new late last year. Hoses are new (and zincs). RW impellers have about 15 hours on them. Coolant was changed out when the HE's were done. Before I bought the gun I (under a captain/instructor's guidance) drove the boat off the lot and proceeded on a 5 hour run to the permanent slip. Concerned about the reading on the gauges, I went down in the engine room and put my hands on the hoses with no discomfort. Also, the valve covers were quite warm but not enough to create the urge snatch my hand away. Now that I have the gun, I need some good weather and willing captain to get me out of my slip to do some of the other testing suggested.
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11-10-2020, 08:37 PM
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#25
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Guru
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbloyd
Now that I have the gun, I need some good weather and willing captain to get me out of my slip to do some of the other testing suggested.
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Dang, and here I sit with 29 years of Ford Lehman experience wanting to go to Oz, and the pandemic strikes blocking your ability to send me a ticket. Sounds like you are getting there...
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
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11-13-2020, 02:25 PM
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#26
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Veteran Member
City: New Bern
Vessel Name: Southern Lady
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 1971 Woodie
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 87
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Water Temp When Off
My gauges never go down to 0. But read properly while running. Best place to check actual temp is where hot water enters heat exchanger.
__________________
Oliver Moore
Southern Lady
GB 42 Woodie
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11-13-2020, 03:21 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
City: Essington, PA.
Vessel Name: Nepidae
Vessel Model: Albin 43 Sundeck
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 370
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Ford Lehman engine
Anyone who posts here about a FL engine I ALWAYS tell them to contact Brian at American Diesel ( https://americandieselcorp.com/) in VA.
I've seen people speak with great authority about parts on a FL that aren't there.
Save yourself time and aggravation.
They would also have any parts you might need.
Good luck.
__________________
Best regards,
Charles
Charles Williamson
m/v Nepidae, Albin 43 Sundeck
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11-13-2020, 10:43 PM
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#28
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Veteran Member
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Mischief Maker
Vessel Model: Uniflite CC 37
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 28
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Brian is a great resource. Take the time to really listen to him. Ask questions. We have twin FL125"s in our 37 Uniflite. One engine was always running warmer by 20 degrees. At a recnt haulout, Iwas cleaning out the intakes, and found a flap of sealer that had been extruded when they were installed. I removed it through the grille with a pick, and they now run within 5 Deg. of each other. It is always a learning experience.
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11-13-2020, 11:04 PM
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#29
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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You'll probably find out more by swapping the two thermostats.
Or just replacing the low reading thermostat.
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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11-14-2020, 12:34 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
City: Guntersville, Al
Vessel Name: StarLite
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II - 2003
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 413
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Hi JB, Like others here - when screwing around with boats - my experience - there is always something!!
If it's electrical or electronics - it's most likely corrosion or loose connections. Water, vibration and electricity don't play nicely together!
So as not to appear "pedantic" or condescending I'm gonna give you my best quess as to the problem in short form. There are technical ways to prove it but that would take a lot of typing.
To wit: There is corrosion in the temp sensor mounting hole. Remove, clean, grease, check resistance of sensor (300 to 800 ohms), reinstall(no teflon or other sealing tape)
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11-14-2020, 12:45 AM
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#31
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy
You'll probably find out more by swapping the two thermostats.
Or just replacing the low reading thermostat.
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Swapping thermostats involves removing the header tanks they sit under.
For me, one engine reading high turned out to be just the FB wiring.
ADC may recommend replacing the raw water pumps with an updated version that does not have the drive fail without warning (about $500 each).
There is a metal tube in the header tank which blocks up and needs drilling clean. Probably unrelated to this.
Sometimes concentrating on trying to help we get a bit "direct'. Rarely someone actually gets nasty, that`s not happening here. Exasperation with a problem can be sensitizing too. I hope you solve the problem.
Detailed discussions about correctly pronouncing "pedant" can be had.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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11-14-2020, 01:21 PM
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#32
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Guru
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
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When I installed new gauges on both helms I ran new wires thus eliminating any possible problems that might be lurking in the original runs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olebird
Hi JB, Like others here - when screwing around with boats - my experience - there is always something!!
If it's electrical or electronics - it's most likely corrosion or loose connections. Water, vibration and electricity don't play nicely together!
So as not to appear "pedantic" or condescending I'm gonna give you my best quess as to the problem in short form. There are technical ways to prove it but that would take a lot of typing.
To wit: There is corrosion in the temp sensor mounting hole. Remove, clean, grease, check resistance of sensor (300 to 800 ohms), reinstall(no teflon or other sealing tape)
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11-14-2020, 04:06 PM
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#33
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack
When I installed new gauges on both helms I ran new wires thus eliminating any possible problems that might be lurking in the original runs.
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Absolutely. Also you can go with a continuous wire rather than having connectors to reduce the possibility of future loose and/or corroded connections.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-14-2020, 10:23 PM
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#34
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Guru
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepidae
...............
I've seen people speak with great authority about parts on a FL that aren't there.
...................
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Now that qualifies to be called pedantic
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
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11-14-2020, 10:49 PM
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#35
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Veteran Member
City: BREMERTON
Vessel Name: Dream Weaver
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander/Pilot House
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 96
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I learn a lot from the forum members. This is a device recommended by more then several contributors. I recently installed a device from Borel Mfg that monitors the exhaust temperature, and sends an alarm if the temp shoots up. This could be caused by a failing impeller or some sort of blocked raw water. This device reacts well before your water temp gauges do, and could possibly save your engine from an extreme overheat situation. It is a temperature sensor that straps on to the exhaust hose where it leave the elbow and if it senses high temperature, it sets off an alarm.
I installed it on both mains, the generator, and opted for the additional Hi Bilge alarm too.
As boat options go, this was relatively easy to install and inexpensive. Hope I never need it, but have it alarmed to both the pilot house and the fly bridge to give me advance warning.
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11-15-2020, 12:53 AM
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#36
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,187
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+1 on the Borel system. I have exhaust temperature sensors on the mains, Water in Fuel (WIF) and 2 high water alarms. Very easy install, consumes no power unless there is an alarm. Highly recommended. No affiliation.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-15-2020, 07:59 AM
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#37
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Veteran Member
City: Lake Barkley
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 30
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbloyd
. …it seems every time I "solve" a problem it uncovers a new one. The survey missed a lot.
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Large boats are highly complex pieces of machinery, with many complex systems and rarely, if ever will all those systems be functioning 100% correctly. Learning what is normal is part of the fun.
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12-15-2020, 06:18 PM
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#38
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Guru
City: Vancouver
Vessel Name: Callisto
Vessel Model: 1974 Grand Banks 42 Classic, Hull 433
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 589
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I too am annoyed by temperature gage inaccuracy and am planning to "calibrate" my temperature gage, or change to a more accurate system.
First a few words about how the originally supplied gages work. If the pointer does not go to zero when ignition is off then you (like me) have the Stewart Warner type. The pointer has a magnet on it which aligns with a magnetic field generated by the combined effect of a couple of coils. The sender is in series with one of these coils. As the temperature varies the resistance of the sender varies (something like 400 ohms when cold to 40 ohms when hot with a very non-linear relationship). This causes the magnetic field to change direction somewhat, with the pointer following it.
The advantage of this system is that it is insensitive to the supply voltage. It is also a very basic system (no electronics) and hence very reliable within its limitations.
Disadvantages are:
- poor accuracy
- the pointer does not go to zero when ignition is off (this always bugs me)
- the angle the pointer moves through is very limited - about 60°. Compare this with a mechanical pressure gage which has a pointer movement of about 270°.
As regards the wiring being the cause of a problem, I personally think that bad connections could cause problems but highly unlikely to be the wires themselves unless the gage is very far from the sender (over 100ft, say).
Another consideration is whether the gage reading is repeatable - does it always show the same reading when your engine is at, say, 170F? I suspect that this type has quite good repeatability with the only possible causes of differences being friction in the pointer bearings or intermittent bad connections in the wiring.
Manufacturing variations in the gage and in the sender would cause constant (repeatable) inaccuracies. I am considering adjusting my temperature gage to read correctly at 170F by adding a fixed resistor in series (or in parallel) with the sender. I would find the required value by trial and error and locate it at the back of the gage. Not sure if this will work - its just an idea I would like to try.
Alternatively, there may be other gage systems available which use electronics and are more accurate - however one might be trading reliability for sophistication.
Comments?
Nick
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12-16-2020, 11:54 AM
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#39
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Guru
City: San Diego, CA
Vessel Name: Second Chance
Vessel Model: 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick F
I too am annoyed by temperature gage inaccuracy and am planning to "calibrate" my temperature gage, or change to a more accurate system.
...
Manufacturing variations in the gage and in the sender would cause constant (repeatable) inaccuracies. I am considering adjusting my temperature gage to read correctly at 170F by adding a fixed resistor in series (or in parallel) with the sender. I would find the required value by trial and error and locate it at the back of the gage. Not sure if this will work - its just an idea I would like to try.
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If the gauge is repeatable for 170 as you think it might be that could be reasonable solution. You can get a decade box to quickly determine the value you need and they aren't very expensive.
https://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Resist.../dp/B0002KX76M
I added an Alba-Combi analog-digital N2K converter box to a pair of FL-120 with Stewart warner gauges. I piggybacked onto the existing gauges and calibrated the digital system by putting the sensors in a cup of hot water with an accurate dial thermometer in it. As the temp of the cup of water fell I recorded calibration points in the digital system and noted the indications on the needle. What I found was that the sender was very linear and repeatable. The analog gauge was repeatable but not very accurate at all, off by as much as 30 degrees. The calibration curve in the digital system ended up being a straight line after taking measurements every 10 degrees from 180 down to 100 degrees.
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12-16-2020, 04:16 PM
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#40
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Guru
City: Vancouver
Vessel Name: Callisto
Vessel Model: 1974 Grand Banks 42 Classic, Hull 433
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 589
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Hi SBMan,
Are you saying that you had the temperature sender connected to the S-W gage and the Albi-Combi system at the same time? I dont think this would work well, but am curious to know your experience.
I am surprised that you found the sender resistance to be linear with temperature. Most senders use what is called an "NTC" resistor (Negative Temperature Coefficient). As the name implies, the resistance of these get lower at higher temperatures - the opposite of "normal resistive" behaviour. The advantage is that the resistance varies much more than "normal resistive" materials and so can be used to drive fairly crude instruments. Disadvantage is that NTC resistors have a very non-linear characteristic.
If anyone is interested, here are a couple of links which show this:
Oil Pressure and Water Temperature Sender resistance values? - Boat Talk - Chaparral Boats Owners Club
https://www.google.com/search?q=10k+...vIi--q23uHsWvM
Since we are on the subject (and at risk of boring you), laboratory accuracy temperature measurements at these reasonable temperature levels are generally done using a sensor resistor made of platinum wire. Platinum is used because it does not oxidise, which could change its base resistance over time. The change in resistance from 175F to 200F is 4% - by comparison, the NTC resistor changes in the range of 40%. The platinum resistor (called a Pt RTD) also requires 4 wires to the sensor to eliminate errors due to the resistance of the wiring between sender and gage.
Yet a third temperature method uses thermocouples and is normally reserved for very high temperature measurements and has its own set of disadvantages. Thermocouples are used on some large diesel engine exhausts (one per cylinder).
Nick
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