Fisher Panda Genset thoughts.

Parmenter · Nov 19, 2013

Camano 31 said:
Here's an link with an not so happy camper. A Precautionary Note on Fischer Panda Generators

I installed a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW raw water cooled......

I stopped reading there

Parmenter · Nov 19, 2013

sunchaser said:
Would someone, anybody, please chime in who has an FP that has been in routine service for more than 8 years. If so, please share your experiences.

Heres one that is 7 years old

My Gen Set is six years old (2006) and I can tell you that my FP Mini 8 with its Kabota engine is performing well....
Fischer Panda Generators. - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Logic says that a business that has been in business for 25 years and is supplying to the US military must be doing something right and in that time frame will also have some failures.

Unfortunately, the way the internet works, you usually only hear about the failures.

psneeld · Nov 19, 2013

Parmenter said:
Heres one that is 7 years old

Logic says that a business that has been in business for 25 years and is supplying to the US military must be doing something right and in that time frame will also have some failures.

Unfortunately, the way the internet works, you usually only hear about the failures.

better read more US Defense news....after 23 years with them...you better use a better standard...

CPseudonym · Nov 19, 2013

Moonstruck · Nov 19, 2013

Craig, I for one would be interested if you were to do the same type search on problems with Northern Lights generators. Nothings perfect, so there must be some disgruntled customers out there.

Parmenter · Nov 19, 2013

CPseudonym said:
Lots of links

Can you tell me how many of those are repeats of the same story?
Can you tell me how many of those are for the FRESH water cooled models?

I acknowledge that the salt water cooled models had issues
The one I have purchased is not a salt water cooled model.

Thanks

add: when we have ascertained how many FRESH water cooled models have had problems Vs quantity sold, then and only then will we have some reasonably helpful data.

If its 3 out of 10 sold I admit that aint good

if its 3 out of 1000 sold I am not concerned.
Especially as a lot of those articles also made mention of poor installation by the owner.

CPseudonym · Nov 19, 2013

Moonstruck said:
Craig, I for one would be interested if you were to do the same type search on problems with Northern Lights generators. Nothings perfect, so there must be some disgruntled customers out there.

"Like minds..." and all that Don was wondering the same so this is what I found.

Northern Lights Complaint - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

New Generator Needed - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Those two are kinda the Yin and the Yang so to speak at that forum.

http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFAPP=15&Forum_ID=179

Plenty of good reading as always at that forum on the subject.

BoaterEd - Northern Lights Generator Voltage

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/northern-lights-generator-problem-1514.html

Mind you neither of my posts where scientific or exhaustive by any means however a sampling of the threads I checked about NL gen-set issues seems largely operator error/owner abuse. Failure to change impellers and such, not premature failure or design related. The final link in my previous post is most telling regarding this famous "lifetime warranty" offered by FP.

I agree that no product is perfect but the issue with the FP unit and many other units is one of scale. Not all things scale down well and that's a fact you cannot escape IMO. When you stick a heat generating device of any kind inside a sound shield you will eventually have issues again this is only my opinion and not to be confused with fact. I'm sure the FP could be a fine choice if a person was willing to maintain them well and not try to use them for daily use.

CPseudonym · Nov 19, 2013

Parmenter said:
Can you tell me how many of those are repeats of the same story? None that I'm aware of
Can you tell me how many of those are for the FRESH water cooled models? I do not care to do all your research for you, sorry

I acknowledge that the salt water cooled models had issues
The one I have purchased is not a salt water cooled model.

Thanks

add: when we have ascertained how many FRESH water cooled models have had problems Vs quantity sold, then and only then will we have some reasonably helpful data.

If its 3 out of 10 sold I admit that aint good

if its 3 out of 1000 sold I am not concerned.
Especially as a lot of those articles also made mention of poor installation by the owner.

If you have already purchased this then the point is moot and so is this conversation. Get it up to scratch and report back in a year or two with your positive experiences. BTW, in case you did not bother to click on any of those links there was some positive user comments from FP owners in them too.

healhustler · Nov 19, 2013

I'm not a fan of any particular brand of Genset mfg., but I'm currently having my Northern Lights 4.5 Genset reconditioned at a long time family operated dealer here in FL. They seem the least familiar with Northern Lights out of any brand that they service, according to them, because if you simply do the maintenance, there's not really much else for them to do. If I could pick a weak spot, it would have to be the exhaust elbow, which I replaced on mine with a stainless unit.....no problems. What was striking was to see the Northern Lights windings sitting next to other brands in the shop. The difference was stunning. I'm not sure who makes the 3 cyl. Lugger diesel in that configuration, but if you can keep the fluids flowing through it, it doesn't seem powerful enough to hurt itself.

BruceK · Nov 19, 2013

When I had trouble starting my Onan,(I could if I went into the ER, held the fuel solenoid rod across manually, after start the secondary one held it normally), I found the near $400 solenoid part number I needed from all the posts about solenoid failures. So they all have their problems.
The FP has the less weight the OP needs, that could be a decider,even so a wander through past posts provided to see which do/don`t help can`t hurt.

Parmenter · Nov 19, 2013

CPseudonym said:
BTW, in case you did not bother to click on any of those links there was some positive user comments from FP owners in them too.

Yes I did see that thanks.

One from Nick on SV Jedi saying that there were definitely problems with the seawater cooled models (and that was the main complaint) but comment couldn't be made on the newer (fresh water cooled) models as no one had said anything yet.

I wonder as many have said that the box is small for that genny and being tight makes it hot, as I have space, why not leave their cover off and build it into a ply box lined with the appropriate sound proofing.
Or just cut their box and tray and expand it out several inches in all directions filling in the gaps with appropriate soundproofing.

Thats an easy job for me while its out of its tray getting the kubota worked on.

N4712 · Nov 19, 2013

Parmenter said:
Yes I did see that thanks. One from Nick on SV Jedi saying that there were definitely problems with the seawater cooled models (and that was the main complaint) but comment couldn't be made on the newer (fresh water cooled) models as no one had said anything yet. I wonder as many have said that the box is small for that genny and being tight makes it hot, as I have space, why not leave their cover off and build it into a ply box lined with the appropriate sound proofing. Or just cut their box and tray and expand it out several inches in all directions filling in the gaps with appropriate soundproofing. Thats an easy job for me while its out of its tray getting the kubota worked on.

Another option instead of enlarging the sound shield, get one of these inline blowers drill a hole fix the duct to the shield done. Just another thought

ksanders · Nov 19, 2013

Parmenter said:
I wonder as many have said that the box is small for that genny and being tight makes it hot, as I have space, why not leave their cover off and build it into a ply box lined with the appropriate sound proofing.
Or just cut their box and tray and expand it out several inches in all directions filling in the gaps with appropriate soundproofing.

Thats an easy job for me while its out of its tray getting the kubota worked on.

I have quite a bit of experience putting generators in small rooms, enclosures, etc... Nothing as small as the FP, but small enough that I had to engineer the airflow systems to make it work. I've done this in climates from -50 outside to +100 or so, and can tell you its something you'll have to consider carefully.

Unless you are prepared to do some fairly serious engineering, I'd leave the enclosure as is. The people at FP have probably spent consideral R&D money designing, then tweaking over time their enclosure.

Marlinmike · Nov 20, 2013

Well this thread was very interesting since I have NL 5.5KW gen that is 13 years old (2500 hours) and the original exhaust elbow, so it looks like I got lucky and will most certainly will be replacing with a SS one in the spring, so thanks Parmenter for getting this tread going, I picked up a vidal piece of information, all the best with your FP.

Moonstruck · Nov 20, 2013

Thanks Craig. If a Mod says it. it must be so.

CPseudonym · Nov 20, 2013

Moonstruck said:
Thanks Craig. If a Mod says it. it must be so.

Parmenter · Nov 20, 2013

CPseudonym said:
The final link in my previous post is most telling regarding this famous "lifetime warranty" offered by FP.

The lifetime warranty is on the rotor part of it, Not the entire unit and it does say that quite clearly in the warranty.
The poster even acknowledged that.

From that link (which was a SALT water Farryman unit not Freshwater cooled Kubota) they say

"The unbeatable Panda warranty"?

Its not even close by my calculation. Unbeatable HOW? That the
rotor has a lifetime warranty? That''s nice, but irrelevant if the
engine blows up after two years!

So the generator bit was fine and to my way of thinking that is where the dollars are.
It was the SALT water cooled motor that had the problem.
As seems to be the case with the vast majority, if not all of the FP complaints.

Also interesting to note in the FP warranty it says

Engine: 3 years or 1800 hours (whichever occurs first) from the date of purchase by original owner, transferable to subsequent buyers of the original vessel in which it was installed.

I would think that was probably amended after they did away with the salt water cooled models.

Parmenter · Nov 20, 2013

psneeld said:
better read more US Defense news....after 23 years with them...you better use a better standard...

One has to wonder why you stayed 23 years with such a crappy organisation

sunchaser · Nov 20, 2013

One has to wonder why FP built salt water cooled units to begin with ------- just saying.

Parmenter · Nov 20, 2013

sunchaser said:
One has to wonder why FP built salt water cooled units to begin with ------- just saying.

One has to wonder what sort of mug would have bought one knowing they were salt water cooled

sunchaser · Nov 20, 2013

Kind of like those who bought Yugos, or made them.

ksanders · Nov 20, 2013

Parmenter said:
The lifetime warranty is on the rotor part of it, Not the entire unit and it does say that quite clearly in the warranty.
The poster even acknowledged that.

They probably warranty the rotor because it almost NEVER goes out in a brushless generator design.

The "hard" parts that fail on a generator end, (barring a bearing failure wich destroys the whole thing) are the exciter winding and the stator winding.

Thats because the exciter is subject to overcurrent from a failed voltage regulator, and the stator is subject to high heat and overloading from too large a load, too high ambient temperature, short circuit damage, etc...

The rotor is easy to warranty for life since it almost never fails.

Insequent · Nov 21, 2013

Parmenter
You should have a lot of real estate on your Cat for a large solar bank, so why not fill it up with panels, and add a good sized LiFePO4 bank? Get a Honda 2000 if you want some insurance.
Granted, if you must have AC then you will need a genny. I deliberately chose to not have AC. I will use 12V fans. A bit of air circulation is all you really need.

I removed a 7.5 kW Onan and a 2.5 kW Mase. I do not have a genny at present, but will get a little Honda fairly soon. Here in Brisbane the sun shines quite a lot - my 1800 watt solar array seems to make more power than I use. My back up for cloudy days is 2 x 200 amp alternators, one on each of the main engines. For charging batteries that's quicker than a genny would do anyway.

Parmenter · Nov 21, 2013

Insequent said:
Parmenter
You should have a lot of real estate on your Cat for a large solar bank, so why not fill it up with panels, and add a good sized LiFePO4 bank?

That was the original plan due to genny cost
Then this one popped up for less than 1/2 the cost of a honda
If it proves to be reliable after an overhaul I have had a great result
If not, well its a relatively inexpensive lesson and I may have picked up some diesel skills

Get a Honda 2000 if you want some insurance.

as mentioned earlier I don't want to carry the extra petrol required.
30 days worth for a 15hp outboard will be bad enough.

Granted, if you must have AC then you will need a genny.

exactly

I deliberately chose to not have AC. I will use 12V fans. A bit of air circulation is all you really need.

if you are only cruising the QLD coast I would probably agree.
I will be going and staying 2000nm further North than Brisbane again.

I removed a 7.5 kW Onan and a 2.5 kW Mase.
I do not have a genny at present, but will get a little Honda fairly soon.

Why would you take out an already installed 2.5kva diesel to replace with 2kva petrol?

Here in Brisbane the sun shines quite a lot - my 1800 watt solar array seems to make more power than I use.

As a live aboard?
And with no A/c

My back up for cloudy days is 2 x 200 amp alternators one on each of the main engines.

I only have 100 x2, but I would rather not use my engines for charging

For charging batteries that's quicker than a genny would do anyway.

Is it?
They would have to both be running at full noise to get the 400 amps wouldnt they?

Insequent · Nov 21, 2013

The Mase was a 3600 rpm salt water cooled unit. It was never going to be there long term, and took up valuable space. I had only run either genny once in six months of living aboard, and even then it was just to see that they did work. It seemed pointless to have them.

My solar is running two fridges. All my lights are now LED, so little draw. The microwave doesn't run long enough to use many AH. The washer and dryer are power hogs - normally use them when cruising somewhere. Not fulltime liveaboard, but think I'll have all the power I need without a genny. If I do get a Honda it will only be for remote trips and for emergencies, and possibly for easing the load on the battery bank if on the hook for an extended period and I have a laundry backlog. Its only the size of a battery, I can store it easily and just sit it near the shore power inlet if required.

My alternators belting/pulleys were sized to give good low rpm charging. I get 325 amp in total at 1000 rpm on the engines. At 1200 rpm I'm at 360 amp. I haven't seen 400 amp, not sure whether they do not do rated output or the charging circuit has a limitation. I'm fine with 360 amp. I have not run the engines just for charging.

BruceK · Nov 21, 2013

Insequent, that is an impressive solar performance.
Two questions: what is your battery bank size, and, do you run the 2 fridges directly from the regulator(s) or via the batteries (presumably via a switch panel)?

Parmenter · Nov 21, 2013

How realistic do you think this system is, not that I would get it from there at those prices.

6 x 200 w panel
750 amp battery (boost up to 1000 of LiFePO4 )
Victron Skylla 50 Amp Battery Charger
Latronics 1800 Watt Inverter
Plasmatronics 40 Amp Regulator

Off Grid System Examples - 2.6 kWh / day
Off Grid System Examples | Pre-Designed Solar Systems

They reckon it can run amongst other things, a 420 litre 240v fridge

Load Design Sheet | Request a Quote | For Off-Grid Solar Systems

Insequent · Nov 22, 2013

BruceK said:
Insequent, that is an impressive solar performance.
Two questions: what is your battery bank size, and, do you run the 2 fridges directly from the regulator(s) or via the batteries (presumably via a switch panel)?

My house bank is 6 Odyssey PC 1800 AGM's. Total capacity is 1284 AH, and rated for routine 80% DoD so a useful effective capacity. Although my 2 fridges and 2 freezers on the boat deck are all 120 VAC/12VDC I only run them on 12V. The power consumption is lower that way, both in the fridge/freezer themselves and in regard to losses in the inverter.

N4712 · Nov 27, 2013

Any updates?

Parmenter · Nov 28, 2013

N4712 said:
Any updates?

Something else happened that thwart my cunning plan.
I didn't get it.

When the time comes it'll be solar and plenty of it.
It'll no doubt get even cheaper and more efficient and as far as a/c goes in reality I would probably only need it for a dozen nights of the year so a 2 or even 3kva Honda will suffice in those instances or maybe the Yamaha EF2400iS

I am not sure why I was thinking I would need it 365 days a year, if I did, carrying that amount of petrol really would be an issue.

Fisher Panda Genset thoughts.

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