Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-05-2020, 01:01 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
Island Cessna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 237
I am quite sure mine (The Grey Goose) was fitted with a 4-236 ab-initio. It has a unique drive system with a custom thrust bearing/drip less shaft seal designed for the original owner, a cardan shaft and very soft motor mounts as well.
I also owned hull No 6, which was unfortunately lost in a disastrous boathouse fire in 2012. It had what I consider the best engine for the hull, which was the Gray Marine conversion of a Continental HD277 engine. This engine made 50 hp @ 2000 rpm, (intermittent rating of 60@2000) had a sophisticated 2 shaft balancer, a heavy (about 3” thick) flywheel, and special precombustion chambers to smooth the cylinder pressured (or so the advert said!). The package with a velvet drive as supplied from Gray Marine weighed 1450 pounds! That was a sweet engine, and I believe was specified by Bill Garden in the original plans. Unfortunately Continental quit making the base engine in about 1963, hence I assume the change to Perkins. This change was fortuitous for us as Perkins parts and service are fully available 50+ years later, Continental not so much!
I have no idea why they used so many 6-354’s in this hull, the 4 is more than adequate. Perhaps the smoother running of the 6. Bill
__________________
Advertisement

Island Cessna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2020, 01:07 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Island Cessna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos View Post
On boats with low exhaust outlets, I've installed the Vetus gooseneck with great results.

I've mixed Vetus Goosenecks with Centek mufflers and Gen Seps or used the Vetus mufflers.


This is the perfect setup for the W36S. The gooseneck will fit perfectly in the tiller compartment under the cockpit seat!

Bill
__________________

Island Cessna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2020, 01:36 PM   #43
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Cessna View Post
This is the perfect setup for the W36S. The gooseneck will fit perfectly in the tiller compartment under the cockpit seat!
I looked at these - there is indeed a very good place to install one on a Willard 36 that would get the exhaust well above the waterline (and the cabin sole). But it would only be a high-point just inside the hull. Obviously, it would keep water out, but would also keep water in. On the engine-side of this high-point is 8-10 feet of 3"D hose plus the muffler lift muffler. I'm struggling to understand how that's a good thing. It's an honest question - I just don't understand. Maybe it's only a problem if the engine is over-cranked and I shouldn't worry. But it just seems like having so much of the exhaust system where water can collect just doesn't seem like a good idea. What am I missing?

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2020, 01:49 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
Island Cessna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I looked at these - there is indeed a very good place to install one on a Willard 36 that would get the exhaust well above the waterline (and the cabin sole). But it would only be a high-point just inside the hull. Obviously, it would keep water out, but would also keep water in. On the engine-side of this high-point is 8-10 feet of 3"D hose plus the muffler lift muffler. I'm struggling to understand how that's a good thing. It's an honest question - I just don't understand. Maybe it's only a problem if the engine is over-cranked and I shouldn't worry. But it just seems like having so much of the exhaust system where water can collect just doesn't seem like a good idea. What am I missing?



Peter


I think the only practical answer to overcranking might be... don’t over crank. My gooseneck directly above the water lift has the minimum amount of water to run back to the water lift, but still would fill up to the manifold if cranking speed did not generate enough exhaust flow to lift the water clear of the water lift.

By the way, the Vetus gooseneck would fit nicely where my custom one is, and probably be more effective.
Island Cessna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2020, 01:57 PM   #45
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 3,516
To protect against the overcrank concern you can always add a drain valve to the muffler. Then if you get a no-start, you can just drain the system before another attempt.
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 09:06 PM   #46
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,455
https://www.sbmar.com/category/artic...haust-systems/

I have shown above a link to Tony Athens' articles about marine exhaust systems. This is just the start. Take a serious look at his articles and examples.

He is strongly of the opinion that the highest point in the system should be immediately AFTER the turbo, NOT after the waterlift muffler. The cooling exhaust shower head should be just after the highest point downturn so even should that shower head leak the water cannot go back to the engine.

THis setup will not allow the engine to be flooded even if the waterlift is filled.



I strongly suggest you Read his articles, study them.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:20 PM   #47
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by C lectric View Post
https://www.sbmar.com/category/artic...haust-systems/

I have shown above a link to Tony Athens' articles about marine exhaust systems. This is just the start. Take a serious look at his articles and examples.

He is strongly of the opinion that the highest point in the system should be immediately AFTER the turbo, NOT after the waterlift muffler. The cooling exhaust shower head should be just after the highest point downturn so even should that shower head leak the water cannot go back to the engine.

THis setup will not allow the engine to be flooded even if the waterlift is filled.



I strongly suggest you Read his articles, study them.
I haven't read everything, but this makes sense to me. I noticed in one of the diagrams that the lift muffler is actually raises up so that waterline is roughly midway up the muffler.

I really appreciate this. I'll read when I'm at a PC. I'll likely reach out to them as well.

Peter.
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2020, 10:27 PM   #48
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,199
There is no requirement that, after leaving the waterlift that the hose travels downhill at all (mine is nearly level under the sole then turns up & down 12" at the transom in a gooseneck)

The purpose of the gooseneck is to prevent dipping up water in the outlet while hobby horsing at anchor, rolling it down the hose, filling the waterlift and eventually the engine. Flaps and check valves are not reliable enough to prevent this long term.



As long at the waterlift is large enough to hold any water that may be in the hose when the engine is shut down, it need not run out the outlet.


Sorry to chime in again on this but I have put a trouble free system in the exact same vessel...
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 08:31 AM   #49
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooksie View Post
There is no requirement that, after leaving the waterlift that the hose travels downhill at all (mine is nearly level under the sole then turns up & down 12" at the transom in a gooseneck)

The purpose of the gooseneck is to prevent dipping up water in the outlet while hobby horsing at anchor, rolling it down the hose, filling the waterlift and eventually the engine. Flaps and check valves are not reliable enough to prevent this long term.



As long at the waterlift is large enough to hold any water that may be in the hose when the engine is shut down, it need not run out the outlet.


Sorry to chime in again on this but I have put a trouble free system in the exact same vessel...
Brooksie - I don't disagree, I'm just confused. There's a piece of me that says that if the second loop (after the muffler) is lower than the exhaust/mixing loop, there is no way it can back up onto the engine anyway. Not sure that's possible on the W36.

I'll get some measurements on the boat (will ping the Willard owners to see if anyone is on/near their boat as I'm 3000 miles away from mine). I'd like to ping the Tony guy cited by a previous post. Seems pretty sharp too. And get a feel for ABYC. Both he and Steve D cite those standards. Finally, have to figure out what physical constraints there are such as very low deck.

Thanks all - though in still confused, has been helpful.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 01:12 PM   #50
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Brooksie - I don't disagree, I'm just confused. There's a piece of me that says that if the second loop (after the muffler) is lower than the exhaust/mixing loop, there is no way it can back up onto the engine anyway. Not sure that's possible on the W36.

I'll get some measurements on the boat (will ping the Willard owners to see if anyone is on/near their boat as I'm 3000 miles away from mine). I'd like to ping the Tony guy cited by a previous post. Seems pretty sharp too. And get a feel for ABYC. Both he and Steve D cite those standards. Finally, have to figure out what physical constraints there are such as very low deck.

Thanks all - though in still confused, has been helpful.

Peter

Peter,
I'm quite sure that all the sedans, like yours and mine, measure the same except that there have been different discharge openings depending on engine. On mine, where the hose ran under the aft deck, it could connect directly with the outlet, a straight shot with a little down slope. And all would have been well while running and at dockside.
But anchored in a seaway, water would have been picked up and rolled down the hose eventually filling the waterlift and then the engine. I did not want to rely on flaps or check valves to prevent this, thus the 12" gooseneck right b/4 the outlet.
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2020, 06:27 AM   #51
Guru
 
Steve DAntonio's Avatar


 
City: Deltaville
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by C lectric View Post
https://www.sbmar.com/category/artic...haust-systems/

I have shown above a link to Tony Athens' articles about marine exhaust systems. This is just the start. Take a serious look at his articles and examples.

He is strongly of the opinion that the highest point in the system should be immediately AFTER the turbo, NOT after the waterlift muffler. The cooling exhaust shower head should be just after the highest point downturn so even should that shower head leak the water cannot go back to the engine.

THis setup will not allow the engine to be flooded even if the waterlift is filled.



I strongly suggest you Read his articles, study them.
That's referred to as a dry, as opposed to "jacketed" (example shown on page 61 of this article https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...s170-FINAL.pdf), riser and unless the vessel design doesn't allow it, the case on some express cruisers, I agree, it is by far the preferred approach. Its drawback is you have a fairly large, dry section of exhaust in the engine room, which can produce a considerable amount of heat. It must be properly insulated (two examples shown on page 65 of the same article) to ensure its surface does not exceed 200F, preferably lower, at WOT. The third diagram down on page 63 also depicts a dry riser.

I've seen jacketed risers corrode, and leak water into the turbo, and through open exhaust valves, into cylinders, and seize engines.
__________________
Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting, Inc.
https://www.stevedmarineconsulting.com
Steve DAntonio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2020, 08:29 AM   #52
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,787
I marked our exhaust path on the attached (probably clearer if you double-tap) and am curious if it’s considered inherently safe or unsafe. The outlets are several inches above the waterline with full tanks and the highest point—after the water lift—is about 2 ft above the WL. The elbow is at or below the waterline and there are siphon breaks on the raw water injection hoses. Are there cases of systems like this back-flooding?
Attached Thumbnails
EF3733D9-C8BE-41FE-94F1-8625AF5AEF9A.jpg  
angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2020, 01:12 PM   #53
Senior Member
 
Island Cessna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 237
I was at the Vancouver Boat Show yesterday and saw one of these: https://www.vetus.com/en/exhaust-sys...k-muffler.html .

Certainly a way to put a high loop in the tiller compartment to avoid sloshing back from discharge without worrying whether the water lift could hold any drain-back from the long horizontal run of hose under cockpit deck. Bill
Island Cessna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 09:03 AM   #54
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Cessna View Post
I was at the Vancouver Boat Show yesterday and saw one of these: https://www.vetus.com/en/exhaust-sys...k-muffler.html .

Certainly a way to put a high loop in the tiller compartment to avoid sloshing back from discharge without worrying whether the water lift could hold any drain-back from the long horizontal run of hose under cockpit deck. Bill
UPDATE - I reached out to "Ask Steve" in the Q&A section of Steve D's website. His recommendation carries caveats, but best he can tell, his recommendation was to install the gooseneck at the stern of the boat as the other TF/Willard 36 owners have suggested (Island Cessna & Brooksie). Below is his verbatim message:
I’d feel better if you had a riser or gooseneck at the transom. With this approach, you’d have an exhaust system that is somewhat akin to what you might encounter on a sailing vessel whose engine is installed well below the waterline. As long as the water collection muffler is large enough to hold the water that runs back to it upon shut down, and there is a riser after the engine (make it as high as possible) and before the collection muffler, the risk of water ingestion into the engine will be virtually eliminated, as will the possibility of waves breaking on the transom (as might happen in a slip, with stern out, exposed to repeated wakes) pushing water into the system, as it won’t be able to rise over the gooseneck.
Attached Thumbnails
Slide5.jpg  
__________________

__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×