Electric Trawler

[rjtrane]

Bob,

I was actually hoping you would crunch numbers - I did a quick internet search - found out that 1 GPH in a diesel = 18 HP hours - since I was burning 1.2 GPH this becomes 21.6 HP hours. I was getting the same speed under the same conditions using 8.5 kW or 11.3 HP. Seems working backwards, there are inefficiencies in the internal combustion motor vs. the electric? The diesel burned twice the fuel than HP alone dictated for the same, 5 knot, performance. Obviously, there was the exact same amount of HP being delivered to the shaft, whether from diesel or electric.

 

[deckofficer]

THD,

If the 57' hull required 175 hp for 7~9 kt, no argument from me, it isn't a candidate for electric propulsion due to weight and drag of the chosen hull. What I'm looking at is modern hulls designed for efficiency and lightness. A hull I've taken the time to crunch the numbers on is the Aspen C90. To run at a speed of 7.8 kt would require 9.4 hp or 6994 watts. To increase speed by a factor of 2 requires an 8 fold increase in power. So even though 7.8 kt would be fine for a diesel powered trawler, if you could accept a cruise speed of 5 kt, the power needed for this speed would drop to 2.3 hp or 1748 watts on this efficient hull.

 

[deckofficer]

Reuben,

You got that post in while I was typing a reply for THD. I have found that fuel burn is hard to convert to hp when it is propulsion forces that we are really interested in. Have you noticed Torqeedo's spec sheets relating their 4 Kw input motor as having the same propulsion power of a 9.9 hp gasoline outboard? Torque as you know is a measurement of twisting forces, whereas hp, like wattage, is a measurement of work done. The efficiencies of a diesel is all over the map in regards to rpm. Volumetric efficiency is confined to a very narrow rpm, that rpm is the torque peak and generally occurs at around 1/2 of rated rpm for peak hp. None of this applies to an electric motor because of its ability to serve up peak torque at almost any rpm.

If you over pitch a prop for an ICE, you will not be able to reach rated rpm. If you over pitch an electric, if the controller will allow, it will ramp up the amps to reach the rated rpm. On a electric motor, rpm is a direct function of voltage. A hp rating for a electric motor comes as cont. and thermal time restricted. Many motors that I have used would have ratings such as 180 amps DC input cont and 600 amps for 1 minute. Shorten the time from 1 minute (as you would not need 1 minute for a 1/4 mile drag race) and you can use huge currents up to the point of destroying commutators or brushes, even shearing the shaft key. For boating all this is mute, we just need our cont rating that can be raised by water cooling.

 

[rjtrane]

Bob,

Spent some time this morning thinking of your requirements - my original idea for the long skinny monohull with retractable amas is NOT an ocean-going concept (unless you count being tucked into a 40' container on a very large ship, ocean-going). So I decided to build on the concept, keeping the length at 12m but making her 4.5m wide (about 14'9" - which should still fit many slips).

Add to this increased freeboard and 24" clearance under the bridge decks and it could be made for ocean crossings.

There's a Fiat-based parallel hybrid, 1,300 cc common-rail diesel available at 110 HP. It's small and light weight.

Quick calcs show about 5 knots with 4 kW of electric - and 12-15 knots at 75 HP. Range under diesel would be dependent on capacity, but perhaps the length of the state of Florida at speed and who-knows going slow?

The trick would still to build her light and simple to keep weight down - but one is tempted with the expanded beam to load her down. She is NOT trailerable nor containerizable.

Over 5 kW of Solar using inexpensive panels (under $1/watt). Battery capacity perhaps 700 AH at 48 v?

Here's the quick profile I sketched this morning.

 

[deckofficer]

Reuben,

There is a conversation going on here http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...s-traditional-trawlers-9998-2.html#post153983 that has me sympathetic to all you naval designers that think outside the box for functionality and efficiency. I knew the pleasure maritime industry was conservative, but had no idea how much folks want their boats to look a certain way. I guess if you have the luxury of being just a weekend warrior, you can give up on functionality and efficiency for the right look, but if your a full time cruiser, you would be foolish to insist on looks or function.

I feel for you and other designers having to deal with this mind set, it must drive you nuts.

Can you give a link to the Fiat-based parallel hybrid?

 

[Codger2]

I feel for you and other designers having to deal with this mind set, it must drive you nuts.

There's a difference between mind set & defining a market. If you are endeavoring to go into business for the purpose of making money (profit) I suggest that you know the difference between the two. People with a mind set, do so for their own self aggrandizement. People who seek to make a profit in a business (any business) research their chosen market & that dictates their approach to said market. (Not their own fantasies.)

I'm sorry that you feel a few of us suffer from a mind set. It's interesting to me that although you didn't single anyone out by name, the inference was crystal clear as to the group you are really targeting your comments to. A group, BTW, that has done very well in their financial lives. (Which is the goal in selling boats!)

 

[rjtrane]

FNM U.S. Distributor: Hybrid Solutions

 

[deckofficer]

Walt,

I apologize for any negative comments but I have spoken to many naval designers that have voiced their frustration with market forces. My thesis was on minimum wetted surface vessels and way back then it was only fast ferries. The needs that drive that market back then was speed, passenger comfort, and reduced fuel burn. This was at the very beginning of fast catamaran ferries, now common place throughout Europe, SA, NZ, Japan and Australia.

All I am doing is echoing the sentiments of naval architects that would like to pen advanced designs, but for the masses in pleasure boating is not desired over a certain look. Folks that full time cruise are a small minority, but would surely adopt advanced designs if it made full time cruising more effortless, efficient, and suited their needs. This group (as small as it is) is the reason Chris White's boats are in such high demand among the die hard blue water cruisers.

There are of course many more world wide cruisers sailing than motoring. Steve Dashew started as a sailboat cruiser and after many years on his designed long and narrow beam sailboats has now switched to powerboats. His FPB line addresses that very small market of world wide motor cruisers.

I agree, market forces drive the designs that are successful, it is just too bad the typical market are folks that use their boats less than 1000 nm per year and/or 25 days out of each year.

 

[deckofficer]

FNM U.S. Distributor: Hybrid Solutions

Thanks Reuben, that hybrid is new to me. You must have had some contact with them because from their website I'm not finding the info I want, like weight. I could tell from the pictures of their smallest offering that due to turbocharging it is going to be light for its hp output. Any other info you have on this hybrid system or others. I would appreciate the links.

I have looked all over that site and can not find a 1300 cc engine with 110 hp output.

Here is my list of links that you are welcome to,
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/2012/03/13/integration-of-systems/

 

[rjtrane]

Fischer Panda "Electric Cruising Experience"

For those of you travelling or living in or near the Netherlands, Fischer Panda is hosting an event with 7 (count them, seven) electric-powered boats. This company is investing significantly on the prospect of e-boating now and in the future.

 

[Pineapple Girl]

By request, the nudism / naturalism topic has been split into off topic.

 

[deckofficer]

Reuben,

I think there are many more international members on the Cruiser's Forum that could make the FP event. Drop a link here Jumping Ship to Power? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[RickB]

In short, the conclusion is that if fuel efficiency or substantial fuel saving is the goal, that goal cannot be met to any significant degree in current full displacement hull designs.

Be careful jumping to conculsions like that ...

Viking Lady

 

[deckofficer]

Be careful jumping to conculsions like that ...

Viking Lady

Payback in 2 years by the fuel savings, that is good.

 

[dhmeissner]

This thread is fascinating to follow. It's great to see research into systems that really work and can have a positive impact rather than a negative one.

Sent from my iPad using Trawler

 

[deckofficer]

Dave,

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.

 

[FF]

My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.

Oars are fairly efficient and if 2- 3 miles an hour is the goal, 15 miles a day should be possible with a Cheese burger .

For a displacement boat 2 hp per ton remains , and sadly at low speeds wetted surface is king , so a ball shaped boat would have the least wetted area.

And folks like Bayliner have refined the Ball boat to a high degree in small sizes.

 

[rjtrane]

My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.

Oars are fairly efficient and if 2- 3 miles an hour is the goal, 15 miles a day should be possible with a Cheese burger . On my Phil Bolger designed "Black Skimmer," I made myself a Chinese Yulough (sp?) - essentially an asymmetrical sculling oar to replace my SeaGull - once in a calm sculled back to Coconut Grove from Fowey Rocks of Key Biscayne.

For a displacement boat 2 hp per ton remains , and sadly at low speeds wetted surface is king , so a ball shaped boat would have the least wetted area. This is why I feel long, narrow hulls with a semi-circular section below the waterline makes sense. And since there is no stability to this kind of section, either two of them as on Sunshine or one main one on center with two smaller ones outboard could be the better solution. I am currently leaning toward the latter since it requires only one set of machinery for propulsion.

And folks like Bayliner have refined the Ball boat to a high degree in small sizes.

So at about 4 tons, you're suggesting about 8 HP? This is 6 kW which can be run at full power for 5 hours with at 30 kW/hour battery - about 600 Amps at 48 volts. This is not a tremendous expense for a propulsion package at today's price of LiFePo cells and electric motors. Add about $4,000 for a 4 kW solar array and you're done buying fuel.

 

[dhmeissner]

For those of you travelling or living in or near the Netherlands, Fischer Panda is hosting an event with 7 (count them, seven) electric-powered boats. This company is investing significantly on the prospect of e-boating now and in the future.

Darn, missed this by two days! We are in Leiden now.

Sent from my iPad using Trawler

 

[THD]

RickB-I was speaking about a diesel-electric hybrid, the Viking Lady is using an LNG fuel cell-electric system, quite a difference. In a diesel-electric system the only source of fuel savings is from expected efficiency increases by operating the diesel at a near constant RPM in its most efficient range driving only the load of the generator armature as opposed to the variable range driving the full load of the boat moving through water. In many installations done and tested, the actual fuel savings only amount to 5-8%.

The LNG fuel cell is pretty interesting even given the issues surrounding maintaining NG in its liquid form (-260 degrees F) among other things. An LNG fuel cell converts about 70% of the energy in the gas to electricity as opposed to 40 to about 53% in a diesel. And, it does that with virtually no moving parts. Again, as with anything that generates electricity, the ultimate challenge is, and will be for a while, efficient storage of mass amounts of electricity.

It could be that in the relatively near future we will find an LNG pump next to the good ole diesel!

 

[RickB]

RickB-I was speaking about a diesel-electric hybrid, the Viking Lady is using an LNG fuel cell-electric system, quite a difference.

Viking Lady is fitted with four Wartsila 6R32DF medium speed, dual fuel (MDO/HFO or gas) 2010 kW diesel generators. It is most certainly a diesel electric hybrid.

 

[brian eiland]

Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo 2014

Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo 2014 - 24, 25, 26 June 2014 - Amsterdam, Netherlands

From the publisher of Electric & Hybrid Marine Technology International



Discover the future of marine propulsion!

The conference of the year!

Featuring more than 50 of the world's leading experts on the very latest and next-generation electric and hybrid marine propulsion technologies, components and solutions

Conference programme and content put together by Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo consultants Oskar Levander - Rolls-Royce Marine, Professor John Carlton - City University, Michael Maughan - General Atomics, Dirk Spiers - ATC New Technologies, and Graeme Hawksley - Hybrid Marine Ltd!

Technical presentations and open discussions will explore the latest technologies and opportunities for expanding electric and hybrid propulsion technology and other onboard systems. Perspectives on economic drivers, case studies of specialised vessels, developments in batteries and energy storage, onboard integration and vessel design as well as the impact of alternative fuels will be discussed!

PLUS: Entrance to the exhibition is free!
More than 100 exhibitors are expected at Electric & Hybrid Marine World Expo, showcasing the latest battery technology, electric motors, hybrid and electric propulsion systems, fuel cell technology, LNG/hybrid systems and electrical systems.

 

[brian eiland]

Lithium-Sulfur Batteries Show Potential to Extend Electric Vehicle Range

....excerpt

The new shield is made of graphite, a thin matrix of connected carbon molecules that is already used in lithium-ion battery anodes. In a lithium-sulfur battery, PNNL's graphite shield moves the sulfur side reactions away from the anode's lithium surface, preventing it from growing the debilitating interference layer. Combining graphite from lithium-ion batteries with lithium from conventional lithium-sulfur batteries, the researchers dubbed their new anode a hybrid of the two.
The new anode quadrupled the lifespan of the lithium-sulfur battery system the PNNL team tested. When equipped with a conventional anode, the battery stopped working after about 100 charge-and-discharge cycles. But the system worked well past 400 cycles when it used PNNL's hybrid anode and was tested under the same conditions.

Lithium-Sulfur Batteries Show Potential to Extend Electric Vehicle Range | The Power Plant

 

[loadmat]

Intjonn - wow, how not to make friends and influence people - good luck with your non-fossil project )
Manyboats - Accurate statement that the hybrid cars folks aren't wanting to save money but "show the way" in their opinion. Fossil fields do actually renew - visited with a Geologist that was in on the Ghawar oil field in Saudia Arabia back in the 50's - said the earth replenishes the fields all the time. He said there's more oil seepage from the earth into the ocean than all the Oil Tankers combined.
Like an old Rancher here in Owyhee county said - "Until I can afford to buy & drive a solar or electric one ton dually pickup to do my ranching, or there's a solar or electric Kenworth that can get my cattle to market, well, I guess I'm just stuck with that Danged Ol' Fossil Fuel" )

 

[bfloyd4445]

Intjonn - wow, how not to make friends and influence people - good luck with your non-fossil project )
Manyboats - Accurate statement that the hybrid cars folks aren't wanting to save money but "show the way" in their opinion. Fossil fields do actually renew - visited with a Geologist that was in on the Ghawar oil field in Saudia Arabia back in the 50's - said the earth replenishes the fields all the time. He said there's more oil seepage from the earth into the ocean than all the Oil Tankers combined.
Like an old Rancher here in Owyhee county said - "Until I can afford to buy & drive a solar or electric one ton dually pickup to do my ranching, or there's a solar or electric Kenworth that can get my cattle to market, well, I guess I'm just stuck with that Danged Ol' Fossil Fuel" )

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]First off in the begining all heavy trucking in USA cities was done with electric. Petroleum became an off the grid alternative and eventually replaced electric as the mainstay method of powering heavy trucks.
Second, fossil energy dosen't renew itself what happens is crude seeps in to fill the void from surrounding oil shale. Fossil fuel is like corn when you harvest it you can grow a new crop on the same ground the difference being for corn it takes one season and for oil it take a couple of hundred million years.[/FONT]

The railroads learned in the forties that the cheapest way to move loads was with the use of electricity not diesel fuel or gas. All modern railroad engines use electric motors to provide motive power and Diesel generators to provide that power. Solar is on the verge of pushing the diesel generator into the back ground with the new technology currently in development. There is a European power boat manufacturer, cant think of the name, that currently makes an solar electric trawler with a generator backup. My numbers are not accurate but it can go 50miles on electric alone then the genset comes on. I calculated it was capable of almost 10mpg using solar and genset. I'll see if I can't find here is a link to the new larger version

GreenLine Hybrid 40 for sale, Hybrid solar powered powerboat, motor yacht from Sunbird

Here is a link to the model close to the earlier model i did my calculations on. Factory gives it a range of 700nm on 132 gallons of D alone no electric. My calculations were based on running in electric mode till its used up then on D for two hpours to charge the batts without any solar input then back on electric. This boat looks to be amazingly fuel efficent

http://greenlinehybrid.com/Greenline-33-specifications

 

[kulas44]

Was there a gap in geologic time where trees didnt grow and shed leaves and animals werent born lived and died ???? Why do you think oil is not replinishing ??? No energy is ever lost it just changes form .

 

[markpierce]

Railroads in the USA converted to diesel-electric locomotives primarily because engine maintenance was greatly reduced and multiple locomotives could be operated by single crews, reducing employment by millions. Fossil-based fuels remained the primary fuel source, however. European railroads are primarily powered by electricity without locomotive-carried diesel engines as the continent is fossil-fuel poor while North America is rich in coal and petroleum deposits.

 

[bfloyd4445]

Was there a gap in geologic time where trees didnt grow and shed leaves and animals werent born lived and died ???? Why do you think oil is not replinishing ??? No energy is ever lost it just changes form .

thats true. You can sit and wait if you like but i don't have a few million years to sit and for my tank to be filled. Instead I will work to conserve fossil fuels when it dosen't interfere with recreation or grog

 

[FF]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]difference being for corn it takes one season and for oil it take a couple of hundred million years.

That's ONE theory , the Abiotic oil folks have a different take.

[/FONT]
Scientists Prove Abiotic Oil Is Real! - Viewzone

www.viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html


Viewzone Magazine offers a look at life and humanity from different angles. Fossils From Animals And Plants Are Not Necessary For Crude Oil And Natural Gas.

The 'Abiotic Oil' Controversy - Rense

www.rense.com/general58/biot.htm


Sep 21, 2004 - The debate over oil's origin has been going on since the 19th century. From the start, there were those who contended that oil is primordial ...



Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin




Wikipedia


Scientific opinion on the origin of oil and gas is that all natural oil and gas deposits on Earth are fossil fuels, and are therefore not abiogenic in origin. There are a ...‎History - ‎State of current research - ‎Foundations of abiogenic theories

 

[Cottontop]

Manyboats - Accurate statement that the hybrid cars folks aren't wanting to save money but "show the way" in their opinion.)

I drive a hybrid car (Volt, which I love, btw). I'm not trying to "show the way," save the planet or save money.

I have a teenage son, and I don't want him spending any time in Iran, so I do what I can to not buy oil from people who hate me.