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11-07-2020, 03:23 PM
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#1
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Veteran Member
City: Semiahmoo
Vessel Name: Ardeidae
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 84
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FL-120, Water Temp when off > 170 degrees F
Lehman 120's. Port gauge (upper and lower helm) reads 150, STB reads 170. The engines have been off for almost a week. This is a new to me boat and this anomaly was written up in the survey during the sea trial when the gauges were reading, Port = 180, STB = 195 while running at 1600 rpm. I am assuming this is the coolant temp. I have purchased a temp gun and, after checking its accuracy against known sources, shot the block at the temp sensor. The Port side is 69 and the STB is 71 (a light source had been shining on it for a while). The question is, could this be a new problem that is just now showing up and what would cause it? If the problem is old it could indicate a mismatch between the sensor and the gauge that the PO just ignored and made a mental compensation for. Tomorrow I'm going to be cruising for about 3 hours with a training captain and will shoot the temps again when they reach op temp. I expect the gauges will be close to the temps seen during the sea trial. If so, and the temps found with the gun are, as I expect, about 180, and within 5 degrees or so of each other, what would I need to do to correct the gauge readouts?
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11-07-2020, 03:49 PM
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#2
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
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There are basically 3 things in the gauge system, the sender, the wiring and the gauge itself. Since you have a bridge and lower helm the senders should be for 2 gauges. That can cause a misreading if the sender is for 1 gauge, but probably not the problem here. A loose connection or dirty connections can cause a problem. Or the gauges themselves could be the problem. An easy thing to do is verify with the non contact temp gun which gauge is correct and then swap the sender wires between the engines and see if the problem follows the gauge or the engine. That can tell you if the problem is the sender or the gauge and the wiring. You can swap the wires at the gauge if the problem follows the gauge to see if it is the wiring or the gauge. If you need support the guru is Brian at American Diesel 804-435-3107. He is wonderful and very willing to help.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-07-2020, 04:18 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: Boston
Vessel Name: Adelante
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,611
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Is your hot water heater connected to coolant flow or it it strictly electric?
That would account for a difference. Make sure all your connections are bright and shiny. A worn water pump, old impeller, or simply gauge accuracy could all contribute to difference. Temp gauges are not adjustable.
Another question is does your high temp alarm go off at correct set point.
One engine was pegged at 250 and I missed it. Eventually buzzer sound broke through the background noise and I shut down. No harm done but red warning lights and shrieking alarms (with mute) will be added this winter.
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11-07-2020, 04:34 PM
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#4
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Guru
City: Dewatto
Vessel Name: CHiTON
Vessel Model: Tung Hwa Clipper 30
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,096
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Check the above items first. If the problem isn't found, you could also check your thermostats. They are usually stamped as to what temp they open. They may be mismatched. If not, put one in a pan of water on the stove and use your IR heat gun to see when it opens. Same with the second. They could open at 15 degrees difference.
Obviously more work than just switching the sender wires, checking your impellers, etc., so this would be well down on the diagnosis list.
__________________
Marco Flamingo
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11-07-2020, 04:59 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,984
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The gauges read 150/170 with cold engines - off for two weeks. They are clearly a big part of the problem, notwithstanding to good advice above.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
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11-07-2020, 05:36 PM
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#6
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Enigma
City: Slicker?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,566
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Greetings,
Some gauges will remain at the last reading (150/170) when the ignition is turned off and will reset to ambient when the ignition is re-energized.
__________________
RTF
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11-07-2020, 06:10 PM
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#7
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Guru
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,984
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Good point. Have you turned the keys of energized the ignition circuit in the last two weeks?
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
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11-07-2020, 06:26 PM
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#8
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Veteran Member
City: Semiahmoo
Vessel Name: Ardeidae
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgano
Good point. Have you turned the keys of energized the ignition circuit in the last two weeks?
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RTF and you have nailed that mystery. All the temps are now reading a little under 130. And, yes, the hot water tank is heated by both electricity and engine coolant. The cruise tomorrow should show discrepancies, if any, when the engines are at normal speed of 1600 rpm.
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11-07-2020, 08:18 PM
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#9
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
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The engine that heats the water heater tank should not warm up as quickly but eventually it should come up to the correct temperature. It will just take a bit of time to heat the water.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-09-2020, 03:30 AM
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#10
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Guru
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
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Relying on gauges of unknown accuracy as an indicator of a problem is a venture in flying blindly. The starting point is using an infrared temp gun pointed at the thermostat housing. If the gauges read differently then, and only then, should one begin troubleshooting the gauges.
As Commodore said, the water heater cannot be the cause of a disparity. But, one of my engines always runs 5 degrees warmer than the other because one has a hydraulic pump for the stabilizers bolted to the front of the engine. My gauges read accurately (upper and lower VDOs with dual station senders) according to an IR temp gun.
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11-09-2020, 08:40 AM
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#11
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Guru
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack
But, one of my engines always runs 5 degrees warmer than the other because one has a hydraulic pump for the stabilizers bolted to the front of the engine. My gauges read accurately (upper and lower VDOs with dual station senders) according to an IR temp gun.
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While I do not have a lot of experience with these bolted-on hydraulic pumps, the last boat I ran with one had an electric clutch for the pump which relieved the engine of the added load when the fins and/or windlass were not required. Dose yours have such a clutch, and when the fins are not running, do you see a closer agreement in temps between the engines? Enquiring mind....
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
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11-09-2020, 09:25 AM
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#12
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
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5 degrees difference isn’t unusual, mine are always off probably due to the lack of gauge accuracy.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-09-2020, 09:58 AM
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#13
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Guru
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,414
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Also in reality no two engines are exactly the same. Even two that came off the line one after the other. They have and develop differences as do the guages due to their own construction and also age.
If the differences keep developing then there may be cause for concern.
With the low cost of these IR temp guns it is easy to check. Just be sure to read and understand their own limitations and pick one or two spots on each engine for comparisons. Do not just blindly shoot all over the place. The best place initially is literally right at the thermostat base and or the existing temp. sensor mounting.
As a few people have commented before expecting two engines to be exactly the same is the curse of two engines.
Become familiar with the engines, keep track of them and then when something changes pay attention.
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11-09-2020, 04:47 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
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Nope. No clutch. The interface is a rubber thingy with teeth. The pump is always running unless I manually pin the fins in the centered position and turn the system off which I never do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgano
While I do not have a lot of experience with these bolted-on hydraulic pumps, the last boat I ran with one had an electric clutch for the pump which relieved the engine of the added load when the fins and/or windlass were not required. Dose yours have such a clutch, and when the fins are not running, do you see a closer agreement in temps between the engines? Enquiring mind....
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11-09-2020, 10:56 PM
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#15
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Veteran Member
City: Semiahmoo
Vessel Name: Ardeidae
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack
Relying on gauges of unknown accuracy as an indicator of a problem is a venture in flying blindly. The starting point is using an infrared temp gun pointed at the thermostat housing. If the gauges read differently then, and only then, should one begin troubleshooting the gauges.
As Commodore said, the water heater cannot be the cause of a disparity. But, one of my engines always runs 5 degrees warmer than the other because one has a hydraulic pump for the stabilizers bolted to the front of the engine. My gauges read accurately (upper and lower VDOs with dual station senders) according to an IR temp gun.
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Actually, I was not relying on the gauges for anything. I mentioned buying the gun to use after insuring its accuracy. I am gathering information in order to troubleshoot the cause of the discrepancy. Also, I mentioned using the gun to confirm the discrepancy. I suppose your pedantic tone is meant to be helpful but it feels condescending. Weather precluded taking the boat out to run up the engines. I'll post again when I have found and corrected the problem.
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11-09-2020, 11:00 PM
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#16
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
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As you will come to know, very few people here are trying to be condescending but rather helpful. Maybe you are reading something into it but I doubt it was meant to be there.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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11-09-2020, 11:56 PM
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#17
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Guru
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
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Comodave was quite correct. I certainly did not intend to be condescending. With respect, sir, if you felt my remarks had a pedantic tone, if you intend to continue to seek advice on this forum, prepare yourself for more. You see, folks here are always trying to be helpful but sometimes overlooked nuances of a particular problem, however small and pendantic as they sometimes might be perceived, turn out to be not so small especially to new boaters or to someone not particularly versed in a singular issue. For example, why is a failed heat exchanger not nearly as potentially catastrophic as a failed oil cooler?
Try as we might, and I always do, the written word sometimes fails to convey true intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbloyd
Actually, I was not relying on the gauges for anything. I mentioned buying the gun to use after insuring its accuracy. I am gathering information in order to troubleshoot the cause of the discrepancy. Also, I mentioned using the gun to confirm the discrepancy. I suppose your pedantic tone is meant to be helpful but it feels condescending. Weather precluded taking the boat out to run up the engines. I'll post again when I have found and corrected the problem.
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11-10-2020, 12:29 AM
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#18
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Veteran Member
City: Semiahmoo
Vessel Name: Ardeidae
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack
Comodave was quite correct. I certainly did not intend to be condescending. With respect, sir, if you felt my remarks had a pedantic tone, if you intend to continue to seek advice on this forum, prepare yourself for more. You see, folks here are always trying to be helpful but sometimes overlooked nuances of a particular problem, however small and pendantic as they sometimes might be perceived, turn out to be not so small especially to new boaters or to someone not particularly versed in a singular issue. For example, why is a failed heat exchanger not nearly as potentially catastrophic as a failed oil cooler?
Try as we might, and I always do, the written word sometimes fails to convey true intent.
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I'll take the blame here. I apologize. I'm very grateful for all of you who are trying to help and appreciate that you are basically flying blind when trying to interpret the questions and concerns when I, and others, don't fully articulate the circumstances that are causing our angst. I've had our Defever 44 for about 3 weeks now and it seems every time I "solve" a problem it uncovers a new one. The survey missed a lot. That observation should bring a chuckle from you experienced hands. Most of you seem to really enjoy your boating experiences so, I'm going to assume I'll eventually glimpse a light at the end of this tunnel. Hopefully, it's not the headlight of an on-coming train.
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11-10-2020, 01:53 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
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James, thank you for recognizing that, to the extent we can, we do try to help, that our intentions are good. Ironically, our boat is a DeFever 44 also. We have lived aboard full time for nearly five years. I will send a private message as to our DeFevers so as to not get this thread going off on a tangent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbloyd
I'll take the blame here. I apologize. I'm very grateful for all of you who are trying to help and appreciate that you are basically flying blind when trying to interpret the questions and concerns when I, and others, don't fully articulate the circumstances that are causing our angst. I've had our Defever 44 for about 3 weeks now and it seems every time I "solve" a problem it uncovers a new one. The survey missed a lot. That observation should bring a chuckle from you experienced hands. Most of you seem to really enjoy your boating experiences so, I'm going to assume I'll eventually glimpse a light at the end of this tunnel. Hopefully, it's not the headlight of an on-coming train.
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11-10-2020, 02:16 AM
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#20
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
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Yes, most surveys miss quite a bit. Boats are there to keep you busy. Keep asking and we all will keep trying to help.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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