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Old 04-16-2017, 08:10 AM   #41
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That's sounds like a very scientific comparison. No model numbers, HP ratings, service logs or any other points of comparison. If I'm picking an engine for long haul continous rpm running, think I would look to comparable use applications.

Ted
Remember Ted...I didn't say they weren't good engines...but certainly not the bulletproof legend, part time boaters want to think them as above all others.

I also had a guy who is an expert in gensets say his opinion as he got to see more of them dropped significantly for some of their design features.

These engines I was comparing were in 40-80 foot work vessels...tugs and crew boats that do a variety of missions. all underway the vast majority of the year.

As to make and models...sure..all makes have had bad models...the 2 Deeres that needed rebuilding...one was in the 300-400hp class and the other up in the 600-800hp class....I cant remember the models from memory.

The Volvos were of comparable classes just being in different but similar type workboats.

Don't take offense...if I needed to replace my engine...a Deere would be in the running...

They do have a good reputation....I just know it is not mythical. If they were that much better, everyone would be buying only them.

My point is not that Deeres aren't good, but other engines aren't necessarily as bad as some "boaters" might have "personal" experience with.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:14 AM   #42
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Here is an article that suggests Lugger took a bit of umbrage when a Lugger was called a Deere!

Lugger diesel -- on John Deere block -- powers Nordhavn 40 - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003
Some Luggers are Toyotas.

This is the least objective thread I've seen in a long time. If DT was here he'd call it a witches hunt.

I steered clear of Volvo when I was engine shopping and now I'm ashamed of it. In ten years I can't think of any engine part I've bought for my Mitsu. If I bought another brand would it be any different? No. There are several that say they "love" their engines. If they had bought another brand would they love their engines? Yes.

It may sound like I'm pick'in on Walt as he said he loves his Yanmar engines. I'm not. Actually I love his post as he addresses the myth about higher (not high) rpm engines. I've always thought the speed on an engine should be decided by engineers, not consumers.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:17 AM   #43
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Remember Ted...I didn't say they weren't good engines...but certainly not the bulletproof legend, part time boaters want to think them as above all others.

I also had a guy who is an expert in gensets say his opinion as he got to see more of them dropped significantly for some of their design features.

These engines I was comparing were in 40-80 foot work vessels...tugs and crew boats that do a variety of missions. all underway the vast majority of the year.

As to make and models...sure..all makes have had bad models...the 2 Deeres that needed rebuilding...one was in the 300-400hp class and the other up in the 600-800hp class....I cant remember the models from memory.

The Volvos were of comparable classes just being in different but similar type workboats.

Don't take offense...if I needed to replace my engine...a Deere would be in the running...

They do have a good reputation....I just know it is not mythical. If they were that much better, everyone would be buying only them.

My point is not that Deeres aren't good, but other engines aren't necessarily as bad as some "boaters" might have "personal" experience with.
The point I was making is that probably all manufacturers have models that are essentially poor and others that are considered good to excellent. I could care less about the less than excellent models of John Deere and I'm sure Volvo produced some models worth owning. To imply that the information from a towing salvage company about 2 engines that most likely size wise, would never be used in the recreational trawler market seems misleading.

Ted
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:25 AM   #44
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Some Luggers are Toyotas.

This is the least objective thread I've seen in a long time.
How long you been away?
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:55 AM   #45
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B & B, said mechanic and I were discussing the D4 Volvos(fitted to a Sealine 37) today. His main concern is that servicing the cooling side is much more critical than other engines, also commented on the rpm required to produce the hp, out of less cubic capacity than say, Cummins.
Riviera, and I think Maritimo, fit a lot of Volvos. They are quite common here.
The D4 was designed (per Volvo Penta) for a service life of 5000 hours. We see many of these in water taxis and fishing boats with 3000+ hours, and I have seen one at just under 5K. Regarding the coolers, they do not appear to be any more demanding than comparable high output diesels. The bottoms of the pistons are cooled with oil, which is critical, so oil is probably not a good place to save $35 bucks.

I can confirm that parts can be expensive, yet parts availability for my admittedly newer engine (2006 D4-260 A-B) has been very good. My water pump is nearly $900.

The DPH drive has concerns, but I am really drifting off-thread. Would be happy to share further if interested.

The engine has been a pleasure to operate and it is extremely efficient.

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Old 04-16-2017, 10:25 AM   #46
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please make your second post about anchors.
Not to forget singles vs twins. On so many of these posts it seems the goals are hits to increase perceived site interest. As my response adds another lol.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:38 AM   #47
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A big concern is also parts and service availability where you keep the boat.

People love to make this general statement but it's not necessarily true, if you are cruising far abroad. Even locally you can have crates of parts shipped in.

And what type of service? An overhaul or major works is one thing but other than that you should be maintaining your own engine.
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:21 AM   #48
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Cost a mate running a trading vessel a fortune to maintain and repair in a relatively remote area where every bit of machinery is cat, cummins, komatsu and kubota.
So much so that he found it cheaper to scrap his newish electronic vulva's and replace with a pair of low tech cats before he was sent bankrupt.
This story is either made up or your "mate" is a total idiot.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:11 PM   #49
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I don't disagree Ted....

Yet, the info is what it is...more or less than a recreational boater claiming how the one diesel they ever owned worked out?

There's no data base to say which engines really are more reliable or easier or cheaper to fix.

Remember, a couple pretty experienced and savy guys decided to buy those engines I was discussing....good or bad.

And again my point was that all major brands should be considered for an application based on many factors.....not that any manufacturer is head and shoulders above all the rest.

Probably my replacement engine will be a rebuilt Lehman....would love to consider others...but why bother with all the extra work and money? If I was convinced something else would be more reliable or live longer, then I might be swayed.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:25 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
That's sounds like a very scientific comparison. No model numbers, HP ratings, service logs or any other points of comparison. If I'm picking an engine for long haul continous rpm running, think I would look to comparable use applications.

Ted
He made it clear that it wasn't scientific but that sometimes the tales we hear aren't reflective of real experiences either. Basically, that neither Deere nor any other engine is bullet proof and that some people, like himself, had observed good service from Volvo's. I'd say, no engine manufacturer is as good as some of their supporters might claim and no engine manufacturer is as bad as some of their detractors might claim. The reality is they are all good, just minor degrees of differences in the level of good and the appropriate applications for the engines.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:48 PM   #51
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None of these companies would still be around if their engines were as bad as some Internet experts claim they are.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:42 PM   #52
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Indeed!

But Wes I consider you an internet expert.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:53 PM   #53
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The reality is they are all good, just minor degrees of differences in the level of good and the appropriate applications for the engines.
If that statement is a reflection on diesel engines in recreational trawlers over the last 30 years, well........you're mistaken. Ask the mechanics on this forum which ones were short lived (production run) failures. There are boats, such as Grand Banks (46'?) where the bad engine (Detroit) choice make the boat all but unsellable compared to the other choice.

Ted
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:41 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by menzies View Post
Here is an article that suggests Lugger took a bit of umbrage when a Lugger was called a Deere!

Lugger diesel -- on John Deere block -- powers Nordhavn 40 - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003
Not all luggers are based on John Deeres. Our Lugger is based on a Komatsu and is purring along at 12,000hrs.
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:41 PM   #55
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This story is either made up or your "mate" is a total idiot.
You have a boat working in the Solomon islands with local crew who have very different ideas on how to treat an engine.
Where do you get your D6's serviced and buy parts for them from?
Report back with your answer.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:41 AM   #56
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Is there any truth to the often heard comment that Volvo parts are more expensive than say Perkins parts?

Engine sales are driven by the boat manufacturers' purchasing decisions. If the Volvo is $1,000 US cheaper than the equivalent Perkins, etc, than the Volvo may be installed.

My suspicion is that Volvo may sell a less expensive engine to the boat manufacturer and make its profit on the replacement parts sales.
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:22 AM   #57
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"Engine sales are driven by the boat manufacturers' purchasing decisions. If the Volvo is $1,000 US cheaper than the equivalent Perkins, etc, than the Volvo may be installed.

My suspicion is that Volvo may sell a less expensive engine to the boat manufacturer and make its profit on the replacement parts sales. __________________"

I believe you are correct.

The Volvo folks actually Mfg some engines , but most seem to be marinizations if someone elses.

Parts for the few Volvo mfg engines can be had , usually from Atlanta with an air bill.

Parts for non Volvo conversions can be rare in later years..
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:12 AM   #58
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Is there any truth to the often heard comment that Volvo parts are more expensive than say Perkins parts?

Engine sales are driven by the boat manufacturers' purchasing decisions. If the Volvo is $1,000 US cheaper than the equivalent Perkins, etc, than the Volvo may be installed.

My suspicion is that Volvo may sell a less expensive engine to the boat manufacturer and make its profit on the replacement parts sales.
I have heard the same thing. I am in contact with some of the Carolina boat builders, and they are frequently visited by engine mfr reps looking to make a sale. They bid the engine prices way below what us mere mortals could ever hope to pay. I have heard that Volvo often comes in well below others. That may or may not be enough to get something green in the hole. Likely a small factor on low production builders, but a big deal with volume builders.
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:03 PM   #59
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Hard to beat Ford Lehman 120's in the older boats.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:24 AM   #60
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And how many 50 year old farm tractors have you seen still going strong!
When I was about 13 my dad bought a 40 year old John Deere tractor (we had a 60-acre horse farm). I learned how to drive it before I learned how to drive a car. I am now pushing 60. That tractor was given to one of my cousins. His son is now using it, and it still runs just fine.

(Which is only meant as an anecdotal story. Not to try to claim that all John Deere engines have a magical ability to live forever.)
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