Defever 51 POC - Repower / Rebuild

[King Zarkon]

Hello All!

I have somewhat recently purchased a non-running DeFever 51 POC. She is powered by Caterpillar 3208 TA (Turbo / Aftercooled) engines with just under 10k hours. A mechanic has told me that the pumps need to be replaced at a cost of around $10-12k, as they are gone from being left full of seawater and cannot be rebuilt.

My question is whether or not this is the right approach to sink this kind of money into engines with this many hours on it. I know 10k isn't a high number for many diesels, but some research had made me feel like it might be the case for me, particularly with the TA model.

I was hoping for some sensible advice here - I know a repower is going to cost a lot more, but I'm also thinking this is going to be a lifetime boat for me.

Would love to hear some opinions, and I thank you humbly in advance.

KZ

 

[Insequent]

I think the key here is "lifetime boat for me". I felt the same way about my boat 11 years ago, and did re-power. No major regrets but if I might have sold and then bought a different boat had I not been kinda locked in so as to get value from the refit. So my suggestion would be to try and buy some running 3208 takeouts, fit them, and operate the boat for a couple of years until you are really sure about that long term ownership. You could buy any used engine of say 150HP and up to do this but by sticking with 3208's they would bolt-in with almost no other work needed.

Back to the existing situation. The 10k for pumps could be just the start of a regular pattern of needing just a bit more money to be put into the engines. Where else was there water? Huge red flag around that water comment....

You did not state HP, but if the high HP versions and they spent much time highly loaded then the 10k hours is a big chunk of life before major overhaul. However, they could also have been run a fairly low rpm & lightly loaded and have a lots of hours left in them. AS I stated initially, I would be inclined to not spend any more than absolutely necessary in the early stages of your life with this boat.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ZK. Seawater as in salt seawater? As Mr. I says "Huge red flag around that water comment...." What's the story on the boat, in general? Which "pumps"? Water? Fuel?

Perhaps you can find used "pumps". I would tend to do a LOT more analysis of the various parts of the engines before I spent any $$, at all. Can you turn the engine over either by starter motor or bar on the crankshaft? So many questions.

 

[King Zarkon]

Greetings,
Mr. ZK. Seawater as in salt seawater? As Mr. I says "Huge red flag around that water comment...." What's the story on the boat, in general? Which "pumps"? Water? Fuel?

Perhaps you can find used "pumps". I would tend to do a LOT more analysis of the various parts of the engines before I spent any $$, at all. Can you turn the engine over either by starter motor or bar on the crankshaft? So many questions.

Hi! I was referring to the fuel pumps, and yes we're talking salt water here

The motors do turn over. The boat was a regular runner back and forth from lake Ontario to the Bahamas, but for the 5 years prior to my ownership was a liveaboard boat that didn't move much, if at all. Thanks so much for the insight!

 

[King Zarkon]

I think the key here is "lifetime boat for me". I felt the same way about my boat 11 years ago, and did re-power. No major regrets but if I might have sold and then bought a different boat had I not been kinda locked in so as to get value from the refit. So my suggestion would be to try and buy some running 3208 takeouts, fit them, and operate the boat for a couple of years until you are really sure about that long term ownership. You could buy any used engine of say 150HP and up to do this but by sticking with 3208's they would bolt-in with almost no other work needed.

Back to the existing situation. The 10k for pumps could be just the start of a regular pattern of needing just a bit more money to be put into the engines. Where else was there water? Huge red flag around that water comment....

You did not state HP, but if the high HP versions and they spent much time highly loaded then the 10k hours is a big chunk of life before major overhaul. However, they could also have been run a fairly low rpm & lightly loaded and have a lots of hours left in them. AS I stated initially, I would be inclined to not spend any more than absolutely necessary in the early stages of your life with this boat.

Very good insight here, and thank you for that. They are 375 HP a side.

 

[rslifkin]

It might be worth a compression and leakdown test on the engines to get a better idea of what condition they're in.

 

[Taras]

I actually owned a DeFever 51' POC with Cat 375hp 3208's TA. Really enjoyed the boat....great layout and build. My inclination (knowing the boat so well) would be to re-power. 3208's are not "sleeved" motors, so you have to take the blocks out to rebuild them and with that many hours, you're getting close to end of life for that motor. As you know, the boat is sucks a lot of diesel to get the boat going 12 to 14 knots (semi displacement hull). The question you should ask yourself is "with the cost of diesel, I am going to be running at that speed or at a much more economical speed, say 8 knots?". If you're going to run the boat more at hull speed of 8 knots, why not get smaller motors as replacements? You don't need 375 hp X 2. Go smaller motors, save fuel and be set for years and years to come. Again, it all depends if you're planning on keeping the boat long term. It will be an investment to re-power.

 

[BruceK]

Hi! I was referring to the fuel pumps, and yes we're talking salt water here !

Welcome aboard! Hope the project goes well.
Not what you are asking, but how did you resolve salt water getting in there?

 

[King Zarkon]

It might be worth a compression and leakdown test on the engines to get a better idea of what condition they're in.

I will do just that and report back - thank you

 

[King Zarkon]

Welcome aboard! Hope the project goes well.
Not what you are asking, but how did you resolve salt water getting in there?

I got it as a floater, haven't run it, so I have no idea. I'm just about to be off work for the summer so I'm planning to start digging in now

 

[King Zarkon]

I actually owned a DeFever 51' POC with Cat 375hp 3208's TA. Really enjoyed the boat....great layout and build. My inclination (knowing the boat so well) would be to re-power. 3208's are not "sleeved" motors, so you have to take the blocks out to rebuild them and with that many hours, you're getting close to end of life for that motor. As you know, the boat is sucks a lot of diesel to get the boat going 12 to 14 knots (semi displacement hull). The question you should ask yourself is "with the cost of diesel, I am going to be running at that speed or at a much more economical speed, say 8 knots?". If you're going to run the boat more at hull speed of 8 knots, why not get smaller motors as replacements? You don't need 375 hp X 2. Go smaller motors, save fuel and be set for years and years to come. Again, it all depends if you're planning on keeping the boat long term. It will be an investment to re-power.

Wow very cool, I don't think there are very many 51's out there! I have to admit, everything you're saying here is where I am initially leaning... if I'm going to go to all the trouble to take them out....

And agreed on the HP. Some research leads me to believe that some modern non-turbos with lower HP might do me well, and give me some better longevity for the re-fit... many things to consider here and thanks for the advice!

 

[Comodave]

There is a uTube channel called something like Searching for Cshels, or something like that. They had a 3208TA rebuilt along with some work done on the other engine and spent $66K doing it. Look at the video to get a better idea. Personally these engines in that big heavy boat with 10K hours are probably near end of life unless they have been run at displacement speeds most of the time. Cummins used to sell reman engines with new engine warranties. Some smaller inline engines would free up a lot of engine room and be more economical to run, but would be expensive to buy.

 

[King Zarkon]

There is a uTube channel called something like Searching for Cshels, or something like that. They had a 3208TA rebuilt along with some work done on the other engine and spent $66K doing it. Look at the video to get a better idea. Personally these engines in that big heavy boat with 10K hours are probably near end of life unless they have been run at displacement speeds most of the time. Cummins used to sell reman engines with new engine warranties. Some smaller inline engines would free up a lot of engine room and be more economical to run, but would be expensive to buy.

Thanks Commodave I will definitely check that out. That sounds pretty heavy for that work price-wise.

 

[Comodave]

So did everyone here on TF.

 

[sunchaser]

Wow very cool, I don't think there are very many 51's out there! I have to admit, everything you're saying here is where I am initially leaning... if I'm going to go to all the trouble to take them out....

And agreed on the HP. Some research leads me to believe that some modern non-turbos with lower HP might do me well, and give me some better longevity for the re-fit... many things to consider here and thanks for the advice!

I'm not sure a modern non turbo engine exists. That said, query boatdiesel as to best place to source a pair of 3208s NAs.

 

[King Zarkon]

I'm not sure a modern non turbo engine exists. That said, query boatdiesel as to best place to source a pair of 3208s NAs.

Certainly will do, and my early searching certainly suggests most modern diesels are turbo, yes

 

[rslifkin]

If looking for a modern replacement engine, I'd lean towards the JD6068. They're turbo, but you can get up to the 330hp version with a coolant loop aftercooler, avoiding the seawater aftercooler maintenance concerns. You might need to add ballast though, as they're lighter than 3208s. The JD6090 would make up the weight difference, but I don't think you'd need the extra power (or heavier duty ratings at the same power).

 

[twistedtree]

What led to the fuel pumps being left full of seawater? Where did the seawater come from? And are these the injection pumps, or some pre-pump? I'd suggest digging a bit more to scope out what's wrong with the engines. So far it's not a very convincing diagnosis.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

In the eternal scheme of things fuel pumps are nothing, like chump change compared to engine swap.

Buy a couple electric pumps and get the thing running, other problems may dictate further decisions.

pete

 

[Comodave]

He may be referring to the injection pump.

 

[heysteve]

I believe on the 3208 you have a combination fuel/governer/injection pump on top of the engine (in the V between the banks) just in front of the air intake. I can't image how sea water would enter it short of submersion. I image you could get a new one from Cat for a couple grand.

 

[King Zarkon]

He may be referring to the injection pump.

Sorry, to clarify, yes I am referring to the injection pumps, for which I have a replacement cost currently of 12k CAD installed

 

[King Zarkon]

Taking a look at these:

Simplicity Marine Drives - Cummins Marine - Pricing and Specifications

 

[heysteve]

$2100 USD from Oregon Fuel Injection here.

 

[Portage_Bay]

As far as I know the low pressure pump and the injection pump are on the same body. They are on top of the block in the valley. Seawater in the pump would be a huge concern. How in the world did it get in there.

My opinion owning a pair of 3208s I would not rebuild or repower with 3208 rebuilds. They are good engines but long out of production. Finding parts is not bad now but beginning to get tough.

 

[CharlieO.]

How did seawater get to your injection pumps?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding the diagnosis.

 

[ranger58sb]

Taking a look at these:

Simplicity Marine Drives - Cummins Marine - Pricing and Specifications

Seems like options might be:
- replace "pumps" in situ (injection pumps, whatever) do your own labor
- replace pumps in situ, hired labor $12K CAD
(no telling how great that'd be)
- replace with 3208 naturals
- replace with same 3208 TAs
- replace with something else
- Cummins B remans?
- Cummins C remans?
- JD something that somebody recommended above?
- new Peninsulars?
- other? (maybe ideally something that will bolt up directly to your existing gears?)

Issues with 3208s seem to be about age, parts availability, and they're not wet-sleeved so have to be pulled if cylinder work is necessary (as in a full rebuild, not just injection pump replacement). Cost of outie and then back innie would be about the same, without regard to whether you're reinserting your own rebuilt engines... or new (running take-out) replacements.

Issues with "something else" replacements might arise with the rest of the drive-train. A thought: what gears do you have now? What other engines might they bolt to directly (if any)?

Were it me, I think I might consider whether cost of new pumps -- but with your own labor -- might be an OK interim step while you think about it some more. (Would greatly depend on what that coast might be, plus whether I thought I could actually pull it off myself... or not.)

-Chris

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. KZ. REALLY tough call given we don't know the condition of the rest of the vessel. Is she worth investing the $$ and effort into? Any engine change other than another 3208 also will potentially include the rest of the drive train components + whatever unknown or unplanned peripherals as Mr. r notes (post #27)


Another question arises. What are your plans for the use of the boat? Are you planning on continuing the Toronto-Bahamas-Toronto marathons of her past? Simply toodling around the Great Lakes? Liveaboard? Future usage may determine what level of investment you might be wise to undertake. Research the minimum $$ required to achieve said ends and proceed from there.


As mentioned above, the engines MAY be good or bad. Best determine exactly what you now have, beforehand. Perhaps a second or third mechanic's opinion?

 

[rslifkin]

Taking a look at these:

Simplicity Marine Drives - Cummins Marine - Pricing and Specifications

I'd pass on those engines. The GM 6.5 diesel wasn't widely used in marine applications, so parts availability is limited. And they don't have the best reputation either.

 

[sunchaser]

As best I remember there is a raw water line at the exhaust elbow that is pretty high on 3208s in the DF engine room. A leak in that hose may explain a raw water soaked fuel pump. Also, didn't the POCs have a hull side intake air setup that could mist the engine in a gale?