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Old 07-29-2019, 11:06 PM   #21
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It might be that Cummins licensed Komatsu to make some engines. I'm a bit out of the loop there so not certain. But I am sure the 855 originated with Cummins.


In the late ‘70’s Komatsu sold bulldozers in North America with a licensed 855 Cummins engine. The engine said Komatsu on castings and nameplates, but one of their selling points was that you could get parts and service at any Cummins dealer.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:46 AM   #22
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My thought is that I have no problem needing a laptop and software to disgnose, and otherwise repair an engine in a boat, as long as I, the owner can buy the software.

I would NEVER dream of having a boat motor that I cannot own the software for.
Not a chance.
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Old 07-30-2019, 05:21 AM   #23
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Folks looking at new boats that are stuck with electronic engines might consider truck marinizations as there should be far more code readers ,and perhaps hackers.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:06 AM   #24
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If I recall correctly, Deere imposed their policy of locking out owners on software after farmers discovered that they could convert a much cheaper model to a much more powerful, more expensive model simply by changing a couple of software settings and possibly a few cheap parts. The internet was full of posts and videos on it. It seemed like they were just caught flat footed and that was their solution. I thought there was a class action lawsuit.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:50 AM   #25
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It won't take long for some third party manufacturer to make a stand-alone ECM that has none of this nonsense. Plug and play, open source code. Just like bolting on third party injector pump, injectors and turbo on an old mechanical engine. Heck, it could all be on a phone!!
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:53 AM   #26
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Apple and Microsoft were weighing in on this subject since they want to do the same thing. Apple almost has done it already, with some third party repairs bricking the phone.

It all boils down to whether you own the product or is it a license to use the product.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:27 PM   #27
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It won't take long for some third party manufacturer to make a stand-alone ECM that has none of this nonsense. Plug and play, open source code. Just like bolting on third party injector pump, injectors and turbo on an old mechanical engine. Heck, it could all be on a phone!!
Whilst that has existed for a long time for gasoline engines, controlling electronic diesels is no easy proposition.

There are a couple of aftermarket diesel ECMs available but they are still eye-wateringly expensive and are a long, long way from plug and play.
They're aimed at motorsport applications where significant modification, tuning and testing will be par for the course.

Diesels require much more processing power as the injection timing needs to be orders of magnitude more accurate than a spark-ignited engine. Rail pressure is used to alter the metering as much, or more, than the injector duty cycle on a CR diesel, which gasoline ECMs have no idea about.

Add the numerous strategies each manufacturer uses as far as crankshaft/camshaft position and speed sensing, whether the engine uses solenoid or piezo injectors and their associated and differing required driver circuitry, injector on/off/dead time calibrations and flow rate calibrations, fuel pressure sensing and control, boost pressure control, compensation for altitude and barometric conditions, turbo shaft speed control and turbo geometry control. . there's just so many factors that aren't standardised that make any sort of plug-and-play ECM non-realistic.

That's before you even look at the actual fueling, timing, boost and numerous other maps that make up the actual tune file that runs the engine. . that takes hours and hours on a dyno with pretty serious data acquisition and logging equipment to get it right.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:38 PM   #28
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It might be that Cummins licensed Komatsu to make some engines. I'm a bit out of the loop there so not certain. But I am sure the 855 originated with Cummins.
There is significant cross-brand sharing between Cummins and Komatsu.
It ranges from a basic re-badging of one engine for the other, to licensed manufacture or parts or whole engines by the other company.

It also extends to technology sharing; with both company's fuel systems used on the other's engines in some applications.

Some B & C series Cummins-manufactured engines are badged as Komatsu in construction excavators and loaders, the B3.3 is a Komatsu engine badged as a Cummins. . the QSK23 is a Komatsu engine etc etc.

I run the component rebuild section at a Komatsu branch in Australia, and it's probably close to a 50/50 split the number of engines I build that are actually Cummins/Komatsu; with a few hybrids of both thrown in.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:35 AM   #29
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Thanks for the info. Sounds like you really are in the loop!!

The Asia/Oz market must be a little different. Here in the states I have not seen a Komatsu built Cummins design. All US or British builds. Have seen the B3.3, so there is that.

Agreed that programming a diesel ecm is complex, but so are many other things we have computers doing now. Reverse engineering is a powerful tool in that process.

Might happen, might not. Just thinking aloud.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:06 AM   #30
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Thanks for the info. Sounds like you really are in the loop!!

The Asia/Oz market must be a little different. Here in the states I have not seen a Komatsu built Cummins design. All US or British builds. Have seen the B3.3, so there is that.

Agreed that programming a diesel ecm is complex, but so are many other things we have computers doing now. Reverse engineering is a powerful tool in that process.

Might happen, might not. Just thinking aloud.
Right now, Ukraine and several other former soviet block countries have been successful in reverse engineering JD's apps and protocols and have tools on the black market.

JD requires new owners to sign an agreement that they won't use third-party tools on their JD equipment, which means you agree to have a dealer work on your JD equipment, and accept any downtime and losses due to having to wait for a time window for the dealer to get to the downed hardware. the same agreement says you give up the right to sue for crop losses due to down-time. Out in the midwest, you can be 200 miles from the dealer, and the travel time alone can lead to significant downtime.

It is a lot like Apple's EULA meaning that you may pay for the hardware but we have access to it, and can add/remote apps and features without asking permission.

I understand that it could be reverse engineered, but that would take lots of resources to do, and that would only reverse engineer one model, and JD can easily change models, methods, and protocols every year to require them to reverse engineer every revision, which would probably be cost-prohibitive.
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Old 08-01-2019, 10:31 AM   #31
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Thanks for the input. Though I am not directly involved anymore my suggestion would be to go with a different brand engine. I did talk to the mechanic and he is looking into the issue further. Here is the vessel. It operates just like a pilot boat but is transferring NPS rangers on and off cruise ships. Up to 8 people on a ship and cargo. Most days there are 2 ships from May-September. This vessel will replace an aging 32' planing monohull. We wanted a fuel efficient low wake quiet boat with moderate speed.





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Old 08-01-2019, 10:50 AM   #32
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Ain't that the truth. For my 2017 BMW/Mini you can check the oil level with the electronic display, but not manually. There is no dipstick. And you can't add oil yourself. Only the dealer can.

Big brother rules!!!

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Old 08-01-2019, 10:56 AM   #33
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Common rail marine engines were hyped as the answer to a boater's prayer. Turns out they are the answer to anyone servicing them.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:59 AM   #34
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With a "government" boat it wont work, but someone looking for a new build should call various builders as many were wise enough to lay down a large number of keels to circumvent the Tier what ever rules , for awhile.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:17 AM   #35
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Here is the vessel...
Nice - Scott Jutson design? That looks like a near cousin to my build. I went with Deere because I've grown up with them, now you guys are making me question my decision.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:17 AM   #36
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The reason is that the manufacturers want to stop you, or 3rd parties, doing the work yourself and the reason they force you to go to their authorised dealer is purely and simply profit.
They sell you the engine but also lock you into the dealer servicing for as long as you keep it =$$$$$$.
You can if you wish still buy the Ford 4 & 6 cylinder models which are built in Turkey without electronics as well as some other marques. A friend has a Turkish built Ford and he loves it, he says it 'runs like a mouse chawing tissue paper'.
If you talk to Mike Bellamy at Bellamy marine he'll give you the full details of what's available.
BTW I've never heard of a private boat owner ever wearing out his engine and frankly when I'm at sea in my single engine boat I want reliability first and foremost which is why I'd never buy a motor with ECU's as long as my fundamental orifice is still pointing at the ground.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:55 AM   #37
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The reason is that the manufacturers want to stop you, or 3rd parties, doing the work yourself and the reason they force you to go to their authorised dealer is purely and simply profit.
If not to make a profit, why do you think manufacturers are in business? If you don't like one manufacturer's product or business model, buy from somebody else.

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You can if you wish still buy the Ford 4 & 6 cylinder models which are built in Turkey without electronics as well as some other marques. A friend has a Turkish built Ford and he loves it, he says it 'runs like a mouse chawing tissue paper'.
Federal law in the USA required boats which would be sold in this country, built after 2008, having an engine over 37 KW (50 HP), to have tier compliant engines. It's a government regulation, not a manufacturer's decision.

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Old 08-02-2019, 09:53 AM   #38
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Nice - Scott Jutson design? That looks like a near cousin to my build. I went with Deere because I've grown up with them, now you guys are making me question my decision.
Yes a Jutson design. It will be built by Armstrong in Port Angeles, WA.
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Old 08-02-2019, 10:12 AM   #39
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Not to derail the thread - but Josh Armstrong is building this one at his new location in North Carolina.

It has the dreaded John Deere 4045 AFM85.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:33 AM   #40
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"Federal law in the USA required boats which would be sold in this country, built after 2008, having an engine over 37 KW (50 HP), to have tier compliant engines. It's a government regulation, not a manufacturer's decision."

When these types of laws were created for the trucking industry , the smaller carriers (a couple of trucks) could not compete.

Their solution was to purchase "gliders" , brand new trucks with out an engine or transmission.

The truck owner would install a factory rebuilt older repairable style engine.

Sadly it seems only lobster boats still are built with the ability to change out the engine package overnight.

Perhaps it will push NA to creating more repairable boats?
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