Broken raw water fitting and...engine won't stop?

[psneeld]

Temporarily anything will work, heck use hot water rated PVC.

The pieces and parts that are pipe or fittings for the salt water runs on my Lehman are eithe brass or copper and are decades old.

Yeah, a lot of chest beating but realiry wins as many boat components are copper where saltwater runs...like air conditioning components/coils.

Get it running today or tomorrow...worry about failures 20 years from now next week....if you choose to.

 

[rwidman]

Temporarily anything will work, heck use hot water rated PVC..

That would be "CPVC". It's tan, not white.

Anecdotal experience aside, people who know about this stuff caution to use bronze, not copper or brass in contact with sea water. A failure could sink the boat.

 

[rwidman]

Wes, my boat, and millions of others, are keel cooled. My coolers are cooled by coolant. Cummins has no problem with that. If you read the label on your transmission it will give the operating temperature parameters, low and high, 180 degrees is well within that happy spectrum.

I would run salt through the primary cooler then directly to your stuffing box and your exhaust. Run coolant through the oil coolers. Then you only have one cooler to service regularly, the others will live forever and your engine/transmission will never be flooded by salt if the cooler fails. You wont even have to put zincs in the oil coolers (can't remember if there are any now)...............

Suspect the number is far less than "millions". I think the majority are raw water cooled or have a heat exchanger where raw water cools the engine coolant with a heat exchanger. The same raw water cools any oil or transmission fluid coolers.

Regardless, we take out boats as designed and manufactured. Very, very few of us have the ability to specify keel cooled or any other option.

 

[firstbase]

I suspect it's not uncommon. And I'd guess the end user doesn't get the first vote.

For instance, our raw water flow goes through a fuel cooler, aftercooler, gear oil cooler... before getting to the heat exchanger...

And there's a smaller line from the raw water pump that goes to the dripless shaft seal...

Nobody asked me my opinion.



The bronze "T" and follow-on hose barbs seems like an easy fix...

-Chris

Thanks Chris. What is a "follow-on hose barb"?? Sorry!

 

[Xsbank]

Boy, my ideas sure get up people's noses here.

Copper is just a way of doing something buckshee, gettin' 'er done. It has its place, my steering lines are copper, but plastic? Why not just use Pex?

The initial poster had a very narrow escape, he could have lost the boat. Its ok to argue that the fix will probably last a year or two, or 5, but why waste your time doing it crappy? Why not do it right the first time? You could probably fix that fitting with rescue tape, I havent heard that assertion yet. Or that putty epoxy resin. Or Weldbond or Gorilla glue. How about concrete? Deck caulk? Road asphalt? Wattle and daub? Adobe?

Whatever works

 

[C lectric]

If push comes to shove with your wife and the visit then use galv. Iron for the trip.
Find the appropriate bronze fittings though and do the repair properly getting rid of the
galv. ftgs.

The galv. will last more than he trip.
Just do not forget about it.

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks Chris. What is a "follow-on hose barb"?? Sorry!

I just meant whatever you have to do to attach a hose barb fitting -- of the right size -- to a T fitting... if the easiest-to-use T fitting isn't immediately suitable. IOW, you might find Ts that are threaded, and would need thread-to-barb adapters...

Not an immediate source, but for the longer term you might try McMaster-Carr for parts...

-Chris

 

[firstbase]

If there's room, a standard elbow followed by a standard reducing "T" would work and could be made up of bronze. The "T" can be close or anywhere in the hose.

Buy a bronze "T" (even West Marine sells them) and install appropriate hose barbs. Should cost no more than about $25 all together. Easy fix.

Understand whats best and appreciate the spirited(?) conversation..but after much searching I am stumped on finding exactly or even a combination of what I need. My hoses are 1" so I need a bronze 1"x 1"x 1" T fitting which could be reduced on one end to fix the whole connection. I can't even find a a 1" 90 degree elbow. Bronze fittings seem to all have threaded ends. I need the hose to go over it and then be clamped. I guess I am missing something on this and making it a lot harder than it has to be...

 

[ranger58sb]

Bronze fittings seem to all have threaded ends. I need the hose to go over it and then be clamped. Maybe I am missing something on this...

Start with the threaded bronze T, then add thread-to-barb adapters wherever you need them? (All three ends?)

Might need thread-to-thread reducers somewhere, if you can't find the right thread-to-barb reducer. If so, follow the thread-to-thread reducer with a thread-to-barb fitting...

Assumes you have space for a larger "thing"... and/or you might have to shorten or modify existing hoses to make it all work...

-Chris

 

[firstbase]

Thanks. I believe I have enough room to build something up. May have to shorten some hose but not a big deal. What is the correct way to water proof the threads on this? Seems I remember that plumbers tape isn't good on this type of joint.

 

[rwidman]

It's just hot salt water and thread tape would work, but I would use pipe dope. Get it in the plumbing section of the home center.

 

[C lectric]

Or Rector Seal #5. If you have a home Depot nearby they will likely have it.

 

[Maerin]

I'l 2nd the Rectorseal #5. Lots of tradespeople apply 2 wraps of teflon tape in the direction the threads make up (e.g. turning the joint tight won't unwrap the tail end of the tape), make sure the 1st 2 threads are bare, then dope over the tape, then assemble.

Be SURE your fittings are BRONZE, NOT BRASS! Brass is sometimes mislabeled as bronze. You won't find bronze in a home center, and it won't be cheap. DO NOT use brass in contact with seawater, the saltwater will cause electrolysis between the alloys in the base metal and leach out the less noble components to the point the fitting will simply crumble spontaneously. It has nothing to do with the adjacent fitting, bonding, or dissimilar metal in the stream, it cannot be prevented other than by using bronze, plastic or stainless and stainless also has its separate shortcomings depending on alloy.

 

[kchace]

That doesn't look like a reducing fitting, it looks like someone drilled a hole in a 90 degree elbow and soldered a straight piece of copper tubing in the hole. I wouldn't put that in my house, much less a boat with salt water flowing through it.

I believe that is exactly correct. It looks exactly to me like somebody MADE a T fitting as WesK described. If so, and it sure looks it, it is a complete hack job. First thing, that is indeed a T for the stuffing box. Any suitable T can be used there. Secondly, check the other engine! If something similar is on that side I would strongly suggest getting it out of there as well. Mine are stainless but bronze could certainly be used as well.

Ken

 

[firstbase]

Here is what American Diesel says to use. Forget the old set up and take RW hose straight from tranny cooler to the T fitting shown here which is attached directly to the exhaust elbow. They sell the kit which includes a long RW hose to replace the current one. $40. Wish he had mentioned this three days ago. Would have saved you guys a lot of trouble.

Brian's quick fix was to forget the T fitting, run hose directly from cooler to exhaust elbow. Replace tranny cooler drain plug with a nipple and attach shaft hose to it. Says that is how many engine manufacturers used to do it.

 

[psneeld]

Would love to know if all those parts are bronze....

 

[firstbase]

Nope, they are not. All brass. I didn't buy anything yet as I haven't checked out plumbing supply for bronze yet. Haven't actually checked out anywhere but online as I've been busy. Did learn that I am looking for the wrong size fitting. 1" hose needs a 3/4" fitting as the hose goes on the outside and the fittings are sized for tubing to go inside. My knowledge of fittings is also pretty thin. As you can tell.

 

[angus99]

Is your exhaust at or below the waterline? If so, you might consider vented loops to prevent siphoning seawater back into the engines. If the boat's gotten by without them for years, it may be fine; but Brian strongly recommended them to me.

FWIW, I would not skimp on these parts and would go with bronze. Also, that elbow looks like a sweat (soldered) fitting on my screen. Whatever it us, it's not a hose barb and there's no way I'd use it on my exhaust.

 

[firstbase]

Exhaust out the back is slightly above waterline with muffler a little higher and engines even higher. I don't know, brian didn't mention anything about anti-siphon but we didn't really discuss it. I would think, maybe incorrectly, that a 1987 Grand Banks with 4100 hours on it would be ok in that area?

As for the parts pictured above, don't know about that either. Do know that to my mind all I need is a couple of bronze fittings to go right back where the busted one came out. Don't see or read of any need to redesign the thing and lengthen hoses, involve the tranny cooler, etc. Just need a simple fixture or two. Again, what's made this complicated is simply me and my lack of knowledge of pipe/plumbing fittings.

 

[Xsbank]

I don't like that set-up because it is brass and it is not a hose barb. I would use stainless there as the metal is a lot closer on the galvanic scale to the cast iron exhaust angle. Good idea to take the water from the cooler directly.

This: BFO | Buyfittingsonline Fittings, Flanges, Valves, Pipe Nipples & Fittings - 316 SS Hose Nipples

 

[HopCar]

I wouldn't use the brass fittings but you can easily duplicate that in bronze with fittings available in any good marine store.

The fitting you won't find is a Street tee. Just buy a regular tee and a close nipple to make one.

For the elbow, just get a regular Street elbow and a hose barb of the correct size.

If you let me know the ID of the two hoses and the pipe size of that threaded hole in the side of the iron fitting, I can give you part numbers to order from my old store or McMaster Carr.

 

[angus99]

Exhaust out the back is slightly above waterline with muffler a little higher and engines even higher. I don't know, brian didn't mention anything about anti-siphon but we didn't really discuss it. I would think, maybe incorrectly, that a 1987 Grand Banks with 4100 hours on it would be ok in that area?

If the hose terminates on a bearing or gland that is under the water line on one end and the engine's exhaust fittings on the other, I would not risk a siphon. You might ask Brian about that as well.

 

[psneeld]

Pretty sure Brian told me that he prefers 12 " above the water line for the injection point on the elbow, lower, a siphon loop is recommended.

The exhaust muffler guys recommended at least 9" for the entry into the exhaust manifold which puts the injection fitting a couple inches higher in many cases.

I never had a siphon loop and the exhaust hose was run poorly, way too low for the muffler techs comfort..... 1988 with over 7000 hrs.

I fixed it this year with a siphon loop, easy enough....cant hurt, can be dirt cheap.....but still another project.

 

[firstbase]

Thanks guys. Waiting for AD to open at 9am to ask Brian a couple of (more) questions. HopCar, I believe the connection into the exhaust elbow is 3/4" but will verify. The RW hose ID is 1". The shaft log hose is 5/8".

I need another project you know? Siphon loop. Seems the RW exhaust connection is well above the water line but haven't measured.

 

[psneeld]

Probably is and if you tell Brian the boat model, he probably knows.

Twins sit a lot higher on many boats than singles do on some boats....like mine, thus the loop.

 

[firstbase]

Spoke with Brian and he said siphon not needed on the BG 42 with the Lehmans. He told me how to measure to be sure and he has seen siphon loops where totally not needed because they cant hurt.

HopCar, on the exhaust elbow connection it is 3/4". If I wanted to take the shaft hose to the cooler it is a 1/8" connection with a 5/8" ID hose. again, the RW hose is 1" ID. I'm off to the plumbing supply store who will probably solve all of this in about a minute and a half but would appreciate any part numbers you have Hopcar.

 

[firstbase]

OK, let the abuse begin. I went to 2 marine supply and 2 plumbing supply places. None could build this up in bronze. So I went with brass. I know not as good as bronze but I have to say it sure looks slightly more substantial than what I had in the first picture. Also looks like it will last way longer than I will. the shaft log tube will come in from the bottom rather out the side but can't see how that matters in any way. Now some pipe dope, tighten all down and back on the boat. Both engines.

 

[psneeld]

I think you will be fine...just understand that it may not be a 20 year repair and you need to check it every once and awhile.

 

[firstbase]

Understand. I guess the good news is that it sticks out like a sore thumb on my starboard engine. I don't think it will miss being seen and checking the port one is no big deal. Not sure what I am looking fo beyond general exterior deterioration and corrosion. Also I am anal enough to replace it with bronze when I find the parts. Wasn't terribly expensive and then I would have replacements. I'm going to have a to get another boat to carry all of the replacements I read that I am supposed to have!

 

[LarryM]

You might start your journey back to the bronze age here.

Bronze Fittings
http://www.legendvalve.com/images/fittings/bronze-fittings-and-brass-nipples/LT-BFN1113.pdf

Bronze Nipples
http://www.legendvalve.com/images/fittings/insert-fittings/LT-IFT1116.pdf