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01-11-2022, 08:17 AM
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#1
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Aux outboard kicker on a 50' displacement vessel
my question is about HP required to move the boat at 4-5 kts
I have seen threads that discussed this before pros cons etc. i am aware of all that.
I am debating whether the 60HP high trust versions will be enough or i need to go to a 90 or even 115HP
any choice will end up swinging the same prop diameter at the lowest possible pitch.
Suzuki seems the best choice and have the lowest gear ratio highest diameter and lowest pitch.
using Suzuki as an example..
a 60HP HT swinging 14x9 prop and a 90HP swinging same prop.
will the 90HP move the vessel any faster than the 60?
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01-11-2022, 08:28 AM
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#2
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
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flat water, 4-5 knots even with a strong foul current or headwind and will you be able to keep thr prop deep enough in the water all the time?
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01-11-2022, 08:41 AM
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#3
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Guru
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,381
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I doubt you will see much difference between 60 and 90 HP, focusing on gear ratio and the diameter of prop that it will accommodate are important as well as the length of the leg. How deep is the center of your transom below the waterline? If you cannot get a outboard this long it will cavitate once you pick up any speed.
I've seen pile driving barges setup with a pair of similar sized outboards mounted on vertical tracks which could be raised and lowered via block and tackle. They extended the fuel lines, hydraulic steering lines and wiring harnesses to provide adequate range of motion and it worked quite well. The bottoms of the barge sloped up at 45 degrees at either ends so the props were receiving a clean water flow.
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01-11-2022, 09:21 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: Seattle
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,312
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Get home power with an outboard is easily achieved with your dinghy lashed "on the hip". So what can you obtain right now? Say your little 20-40hp outboard pushes you at 3 knots. That's great. But how far are you going to get across the ocean with just a 5 gallon gasoline fuel tank.
Perhaps switch across to a small diesel outboard for the dinghy. An inflatable would be better than a hard fiberglass one.
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01-11-2022, 10:11 AM
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#5
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
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Ever try hip towing in anything over 2 feet in a smaller boat? Over 4 feet in larger?
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01-11-2022, 10:33 AM
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#6
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdavid
How deep is the center of your transom below the waterline? If you cannot get a outboard this long it will cavitate once you pick up any speed.
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boat has a 6' draft. although the center of the transom is only about 18" below the swim step where the outboard will be mounted on.
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01-11-2022, 10:38 AM
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#7
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako
Perhaps switch across to a small diesel outboard for the dinghy. An inflatable would be better than a hard fiberglass one.
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I already have the 27HP yanmar diesel kicker mounted on my 30 foot planning boat. the prop is too small to support moving a larger vessel.
other diesel options are way too expensive and are not considered at this time.
I am planning to keep 100 gal of gasoline on board. i know that will not help me cross oceans but may help to get out of situation.
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01-11-2022, 03:43 PM
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#8
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Guru
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
Ever try hip towing in anything over 2 feet in a smaller boat? Over 4 feet in larger?
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Many times.
Tugs do it every day.
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01-11-2022, 04:48 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
Ever try hip towing in anything over 2 feet in a smaller boat? Over 4 feet in larger?
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i have to admit. i don't understand what this means
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01-11-2022, 05:34 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Boston Area
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,610
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why would you hip tow* instread of a more traditional tow ?
* "hip tow" is when the towboat is tied side by side with the disabled boat.
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01-11-2022, 05:51 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
Ever try hip towing in anything over 2 feet in a smaller boat? Over 4 feet in larger?
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No, sounds miserable, dangerous, destructive for most recreational craft. That said, I imagine you would wait it out for more benign conditions under anchor or sea anchor. Of course an assistance tower is on the clock and isn't going to wait hours or days for better conditions, but for a recreational craft in non- emergency conditions, it would be pretty frustrating to have multiple sources of energy/power and no means to translate it into propulsion. Storing energy in gasoline still seems like a limiting factor. I think an electric or hydraulic coupling of the generator to a propeller would be a more robust approach but that is off topic.
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01-11-2022, 06:11 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ofer
i have to admit. i don't understand what this means
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It was in reference to tying to hip tow your big boat with a dingy in more typical conditions than protected waters and/or a short distance to a dock.
Sure...the bigger and more rugged the vessels...the worse conditions hip towing is possible...but at some point.... stern towing becomes the preferred.
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01-11-2022, 07:58 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
It was in reference to tying to hip tow your big boat with a dingy in more typical conditions than protected waters and/or a short distance to a dock.
Sure...the bigger and more rugged the vessels...the worse conditions hip towing is possible...but at some point.... stern towing becomes the preferred.
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ok although not sure how that relates to my original question.
i am trying to install an outboard centerly located on my swim step. i am debating what's the best OB HP to perform the task without over doing it.
I am aware of all fuel options including electric. Gasoline is the only viable option at this time.
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01-11-2022, 08:14 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Anacortes
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 588
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Not an answer to your question but why are you doing this?
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01-11-2022, 09:33 PM
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#15
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean9c
Not an answer to your question but why are you doing this?
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i have a single engine 50' trawler.
i have been boating with my 30 footer for the last 35 years with this setup. I traveled to Cabo in the south and to Juno north in my 30 foot boat.
In all my years i never needed assistance from any agency not the CG back in the day and not vessel assist even though i am a member.
I went over a whale twice in Baja and over a log in Alaska that destroyed my running gear. Its important for me to have extra propulsion that is completely independent of all other systems.
what will it be used for:
help docking like a rear Thruster.
backup steering in case of main rudder malfunction.it will also have its own autopilot.
backup to main power plant and prop.
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01-12-2022, 02:10 PM
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#16
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Guru
City: Anacortes
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 588
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Huh. That'd take a lot to make it work right. It'll be interesting to see your progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ofer
i have a single engine 50' trawler.
i have been boating with my 30 footer for the last 35 years with this setup. I traveled to Cabo in the south and to Juno north in my 30 foot boat.
In all my years i never needed assistance from any agency not the CG back in the day and not vessel assist even though i am a member.
I went over a whale twice in Baja and over a log in Alaska that destroyed my running gear. Its important for me to have extra propulsion that is completely independent of all other systems.
what will it be used for:
help docking like a rear Thruster.
backup steering in case of main rudder malfunction.it will also have its own autopilot.
backup to main power plant and prop.
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01-13-2022, 10:22 AM
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#17
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,185
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I think the OP’s question is reasonable. Given the plethora of outboard vessels in the 50’ range out there, doing this is not like a moon shot. The key is assuring structural integrity and security of cable and fuel runs to the vessel.
I recently saw a 30’ Bayliner where the owner had removed main engine and installed a 90 hp outboard. To the OP, if your interested in a picture of this PM me.
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01-13-2022, 10:29 AM
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#18
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Guru
City: Seattle
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
I recently saw a 30’ Bayliner where the owner had removed main engine and installed a 90 hp outboard. To the OP, if your interested in a picture of this PM me.
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That's a very good idea. There are a ton of Sundancers available in the market and the biggest issue is always the engine/IO. Wouldn't be too unreasonable to rip out the old technology, close the hole in the transom, modify the swim platform and install a nice OB on a bracket. Although all in all it's probably cheaper just to buy a nice rebuilt motor/IO and install it fresh.
Post of photo here.
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01-13-2022, 11:00 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser
I think the OP’s question is reasonable. Given the plethora of outboard vessels in the 50’ range out there, doing this is not like a moon shot. The key is assuring structural integrity and security of cable and fuel runs to the vessel.
I recently saw a 30’ Bayliner where the owner had removed main engine and installed a 90 hp outboard. To the OP, if your interested in a picture of this PM me.
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thank you,
I am just looking to move my vessel at 4-5 kts. i would love to conclude that a 60HP high trust would do the job. The 60 HT has the gear case of a 90 or 100 HP with all manufactures. bigger diameter prop is main reason.
if I go to a 90 or 100 HP i am still swinging same diameter prop. I am not sure if the additional 30HP will help for moving a large displacement vessel.
the main component in this setup is propeller size the largest diameter and smallest pitch is best. the question is, will the 60 HP spin the prop at max rpm or not. i realize that prop efficiency is way low and that's all i have.
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01-13-2022, 11:43 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,487
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The Yanmar diesel outboards in the 36-40 HP range can be bought used and
reconditioned and probably represent the most power you will be able to utilize in
your transom-hung application. It may only take 36HP to move your boat that speed.
Unlike the other options you note, these engines were designed to move heavy,
displacement vessels and feature lower rpm gear reductions.
The bigger prop on a larger, faster turning gas outboard will most likely cavitate
before you can use its greater power output.
Being able to run off your boat's main fuel source is icing on the cake.
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