Acid Flushing Your Engine

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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
What exactly are you attempting to cure with acid flushing?
What engine are you intending to use this on? (Cummins 6b, Yanmar 6YL ,other?)
Which part or sets of parts are you running this acid through?
A heat exchanger, an intercooler, oil cooler, trans cooler which parts?
What determines when you have the need to acid flush ...and then what determines if it has changed/improved anything?
 
Fletcher:

I think Tony was questioning my view that fresh water flushing does little good, not whether one should acid flush.

David

Got it.

BTW, I appreciate your comments regarding engineers, and technicians. Both sides should respect, and appreciate the other. Working together, good things can happen.
 
theories

David,

You have convinced me that you do not understand the mechanics of what goes on inside these aftercoolers..

Let’s talk about your current statement—Fresh water flushing would not help
Look at picture 1—Here is an aftercooler that had a total of 9.5 engine hours but the boat was then parked for 6 yrs with saltwater in it.. This aftercooler destroyed itself from the seawater side, not from the air side with condensation or saltwater laden air... We see this all the time but to a lesser degree. The seawater slowly eats the aluminum between the bronze cap and the housing that then breaches the o-ring. With lots of grease between the bronze cap & aluminum and fresh water, this never happens, and I mean NEVER.

Picture 2 is an after with under 500 total hours and 8 years in service.. Picture #3 in a new factory after that we took apart for servicing.. Actually, we the see first signs of this on at least 50% of the new aftercooler we service before shipment.

Now I want to address your thoughts on zincs as to they’re working or not working in fresh water………this is really simple--------THEY do not need to work or do much of anything if the boat is parked in a lake or with fresh water in the system. These components were designed for salt water use have really have no need for zinc when in fresh water, and FYI they cause zero harm if left in place.. When you go on a trip into salt water, they do what they were designed to do.. So, in so many words, all that crap about zinc vs aluminum anodes in fresh water is just that—CRAP—25+ yrs of dealing with this has proved that beyond any doubt, and no book or couch engineer with change that —That reminds me of the people that believe if you put a pipe dope or Teflon tape on a zinc plug, it does not work as you lose electrical connection—NOT TRUE AT ALL—a 100% old wives tale.. Now, if it was a 100% fresh water boat and it never saw salt water, I’d be using Mg anodes (ala water heaters) IF I really thought I needed anode protection in fresh water, which I do not. At least they would do something as to anode protection if needed.

Now let’s touch on the air side of the aftercooler which really is where most of the issues we see start. It all comes down to moisture getting in-between the brass alloy ring at each end of the aftercooler and the aluminum housing.. The gap or clearance here is measured in 1000’s of an inch ( about .010”~.015”) and any moisture at all has no issue bridging that gap, and electrically connecting the brass alloy to the aluminum.. Viola, you have a small electrical cell that does its thing 24-7-365.. When assembled dry at the factory, it usually only takes about a year to do some decent damage and with 2-4 yrs, the damage can be so extensive that the housing & the core may not come apart.. But also what is going on, that the o-ring now gets breached and saltwater will start misting the air intake. The entire process of what is going on is a mess but luckily some pro-active maintenance starting early on in the aftercoolers life keeps this under control for decades.. PROPER SERVICING per my protocol.
You mentioned a composite housing -- Way easier and more practical to just bore the aftercooler about a inch deep at both ends ( maybe 2mm), shave off 1 mmm at both ends and drop in a flanged engineering plastic sleeve with a 1mm thickness.. Problem is now 90+++ % solved.. Way too simple for an engineer to “see”

Acid washing—Not sure where you are going with this but I do have an issue --- 30% HCL and water is way too strong. 10% is just fine—30 mintes to an hour does it all, (except maybe in some problem circumstances) . As to what you are accomplishing, basically you are dissolving calcium, lime, and old zinc deposits.. Done every 5-10 yrs is all that is needed, and before I’d do it, I’d be sure my aftercooler was recently serviced per my protocol—The last thing I’d want of for any HCL especially at 30%) to migrate past one on my aftercooler o-rings.. Plus, you have to remove all your zincs. RYDLYME has a pretty good web site video on acid flushing.

Just an FYI—We always soak the seawater side of the aftercoolers in 10:1 before we pressure test.. The reason is simple—calcium/lime inside the tubes and in soldered joints can “mask” a small leak.

So here we are………………. As to “Theoretical”……………… Talk about something that does not apply.. If 25+ years and a 1000+ aftercoolers does not put that to bed in your mind, then I won’t be able to help.. This aftercooler design, along with many others out there, were designed with “theories” along with the DRY Manifold on the QSM.. Just look at where these “theories” got us to today...You don’t need theories, just COMMON SENSE……………Tony
 

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"You have convinced me that you do not understand the mechanics of what goes on inside these aftercoolers.. "

With that insulting opening statement I cannot continue this conversation.

David
 
David - I have always learned when I was reading and listening during my lifetime.
I have never learned when I was speaking or posting myself.


YMMV - but that has been my experiences so far these 60+ years and at times I have been amazed it was such a difficult concept for ME to learn.
 
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That did not address the real issue.. Just look at the pics--they had drains.. That was a band-aid to settle a "class action law suit over the production run that used the aluminum aftercooler cores between 1998 and about 2005 ish.. Accomplished NOTHING is the big scheme of things..............................

Tony
 
David you need to Man Up.. When someone posts factually bad info and wants to sell it as “gospel”, you know I do not take any prisoners with something like this.. Needs to be stopped cold in its tracks, and you need to learn and understand what I just posted, and then rethink your perceptions & thoughts as to what is going on inside the aftercoolers.. In the long run it will help you.

Tony
 
I live in the mechanical specialist world in between the engineers and the trades. There can be a fair amount of misunderstanding. Being able to translate between the two sides keeps me well employed!

Sure seems like bad design utilizing incompatible metallurgy to me, but I've got no direct (or indirect) experience with Cummins.
 
David you need to Man Up.. When someone posts factually bad info and wants to sell it as “gospel”, you know I do not take any prisoners with something like this.. Needs to be stopped cold in its tracks, and you need to learn and understand what I just posted, and then rethink your perceptions & thoughts as to what is going on inside the aftercoolers.. In the long run it will help you.

Tony

Tony,

Since I am not mechanically inclined and have to depend on folks like you with the experience, let me ask...

I have a Cummins QSB 5.9L engine operating in salt water that has 6 years of service. As near as I can tell, the aftercooler has been serviced only once, after I bought the boat this last spring. I had the servicing done by a well respected local diesel shop. I do not, unfortunately, know their exact procedures when they reassembled the aftercooler. I likely won't be servicing the aftercooler myself, at least until I retire. It will be serviced by the shop local to me here in Tacoma.

If I don't start fresh water flushing, how often should I have the aftercooler serviced? If I did start using a fresh water flush, how often should I have the aftercooler serviced?
 
Service it right and you are good for 2 yrs in saltwater.. If in fresh water, probably 4-5 yrs..Remember, it has nothing to to with engine hours--It's all about "Marine Age"
 
Acid is better for cleaning than communication.
 
Service it right and you are good for 2 yrs in saltwater.. If in fresh water, probably 4-5 yrs..Remember, it has nothing to to with engine hours--It's all about "Marine Age"

Thanks Tony. So would that mean that if I was to do a fresh water flush after each use, that I could stretch that to 4 years instead of 2?
 
David - I have always learned when I was reading and listening during my lifetime.
I have never learned when I was speaking or posting myself.

YMMV - but that has been my experiences so far these 60+ years and at times I have been amazed it was such a difficult concept for ME to learn.

Good, but...

OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)

-Chris
 
Good, but...

"OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)

-Chris "




Hello Chris,

I do get your point and I have compared it a few times but that is not what it says unless someone wants to 'hear' that from the post.


Maybe we can agree completely on some background information that led up to this point.
- Dave has been on a few posts asking for 'real' feedback on these subjects, this is not the first
- He received similar feedback a few times from various folks with first hand experience on this board
- Tony has been writing on these subjects for over 20 years on a few sites including boatdiesel. Perhaps you or I may not always agree with him but he is pretty clear and pretty consistent with his opinions. I happen to follow his advice 100% but that just comes from my experiences with his suggestions over time.
- For those that have spoken to Tony on the phone (I have) he is always to the point and can be pretty 'rough'. YMMV but I find that a breath of fresh air when I really want to know what is going on with a marine diesel problem.
- If anyone has kept up on Tony's tips or articles over the years they would already know his opinion on this subject. Similarly they would know his opinion of engine loading and fuel filtration. There is no shades of grey with Tony - you know what he thinks after you read his articles and posts
- Dave wrote up a procedure that some would not agree with and maybe some like, which he asked for feedback.
- Then he went out of his way to solicit Tony's best advice on this procedure. When he did not get a response on this site he posted on Tony's site as well.


I see and hear much more than this reading on Sbmar(dot)com but this is a decent summary.
Certainly one of the "really a shame" situations here is that I believe Dave has a 6cy Yanmar engine and not even a Cummins. I have found that Tony is very good with the Yanmar as well as I had one and he helped me but I see no way that anyone would know that be reading this thread.
Once again - knowing that he has that engine and reading a few of his posts on cruising loads I really think Tony's article would help him immensely to avoid engine problems and assure a long life.
As I said before - I have learned a whole lot of things the hard way. In other words I am ignorant about enough subjects to fill an entire encyclopedia set. Always hoping that someone can be saved of making the same mistakes by posting some thoughts and/or a link to help avoid that.


Hope this helps
 
Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does. There are a thousand ways to strongly disagree with someone who's posted an opinion -- and expressed it as such -- without going off on them and throwing personal insults. It think pro advice is fantastic and I'm always grateful for it . . . but how it's delivered matters.
 
Ditto

Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does. There are a thousand ways to strongly disagree with someone who's posted an opinion -- and expressed it as such -- without going off on them and throwing personal insults. It think pro advice is fantastic and I'm always grateful for it . . . but how it's delivered matters.

My ears are tuned to the same frequency as Dave's. Tony's site contains tons of useful information. After purchasing our OA 456, I serviced the after-coolers in accordance with his instructions. I think he knows his stuff.

But, it would seem to me that a less brusque manner would be helpful. I can't imagine any of us would have learned much in our life if the lessons had started off "you're probably too stupid to get this, but I'll waste my time anyway, so listen up knuckle-head."

When he was on boat diesel, I frequently cringed seeing how rudely he responded to folks.

Gordon
 
Good, but...

OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)

Hello Chris,

I do get your point and I have compared it a few times but that is not what it says unless someone wants to 'hear' that from the post.

Maybe we can agree completely on some background information that led up to this point.

- For those that have spoken to Tony on the phone (I have) he is always to the point and can be pretty 'rough'. YMMV but I find that a breath of fresh air when I really want to know what is going on with a marine diesel problem.


Not to worry, I wasn't reacting to, or speaking about, the facts he presented. No debate there, at least from me. (I don't know enough.) I respect Tony's expertise, consider him a very valuable member of the forum -- hope he continues that -- and would certainly defer to his knowledge and experience.

My comment was only about how to better influence, train, educate people. Facts are good, don't have to be painted especially for rose-colored glasses, no need for "political correctness," etc... but "you're a dumbass" isn't a fact -- well, I assume it's not :) -- and generally doesn't help people keep their ears open.

Straightforward is good. "You're wrong" (and similar) is easily acceptable. "Your a turd for thinking that way" probably isn't gonna convince anyone (especially the "turd") very quickly.

-Chris
 
My wife worked in the same office as Admiral Nimitz. I've had some very tough bosses. Criticism abounds from those who have been there and done that. Never seen Tony Athens respond poorly to well intentioned questions. Learning can be difficult.

Debating serious matters on an internet forum like TF sends many quickly to Yacht Forums where more experts reside. Which brings to mind, David you may want to post your writings on YF for additional and valuable feedback.
 
"Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does."
"Straightforward is good. "You're wrong" (and similar) is easily acceptable."
"But, it would seem to me that a less brusque manner would be helpful"
"Never seen Tony Athens respond poorly to well intentioned questions. Learning can be difficult"


Angus99, GordonJ, Ranger42c and Sunchaser,

Thank you for the feedback.
I would like to point out post #24 which begins this way.....




"David,

I've been thinking about this posting for awhile and really need to respond as I feel very strongly you are putting out some very bad info, or at very least, giving mis-guided info based on a very limited amount of field data.

My goal here is to help all, not to disagree, but to show that what you are saying, has no basis in long term application--It's really no different than the couch engineers at Cummins that never heard the term "Marine Age" nor understood what really is going on inside any aftercooler of mixed metal construction in the field... What is "says" on paper , including "zincs" has ZERO value is real life or in actual application........ Here goes:"


This is a person who owns a business doing this taking time to try and post his opinions again even though they have been written in stone many times. That was his first attempt to get a common ground and hopefully help out. I have called up Tony 3 times over the past 20 years and he has gotten on the phone each time to answer my questions and help out. No way he would remember me but each time he was of great help and exactly correct in his guidance. I am not defending Tony only pointing out that you can just as easily call him up and he will talk with you if you like. I would suggest that since Dave wanted to get some type of feedback from him that he or any of us could just call him up.
IMHO - you can disagree with someone but when you pursue that person for an opinion knowing his position and then follow onto his business site and not accept the first or second responses given it will likely get much more clear in further posts.






For any of you that have these engines - I strongly suggest you follow on Tony's technical tips and his articles on these engines. It has saved some of my friends and I countless $10,000 of dollars and time over the years
 
Ok, so the general view appears to be, no matter how qualified one might be, the rules of civil discussion still apply. I have no problem with that at all. :)r
 
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I've employed many engineers over the years. I chose not to employee those who couldn't couple their knowledge with courtesy and respect for others and those who believed they were perfect and always right. I have encountered those who thought their knowledge was infallible often on forums and rudely expressed so. However, the vast majority of engineers I've dealt with in person are talented in both the technical and human side of the profession.

Fortunately, I have no knowledge on the topic of this discussion and will express only one view and that's one someone else expressed very early in the process. If my engine manufacturer recommends it, then I'm ok with it. If they recommend against it, I'm opposed.
 
Fortunately, I have no knowledge on the topic of this discussion and will express only one view and that's one someone else expressed very early in the process. If my engine manufacturer recommends it, then I'm ok with it. If they recommend against it, I'm opposed.

Does anyone have an engine manual or service bulletin for an after cooled marine engine that discusses acid flushing the AC in place? I don't think so. That doesn't mean it can't safely be done with the right product. It just means the light marine engine builders install after coolers but are flummoxed as to proper service protocols.

For most engines we use, Tony's after cooler advice has proven successful. On boat diesel there is an active thread about a never serviced 15 year old Cummins after cooler. Some advice offered is do nothing. Hummmm.
 
I've employed many engineers over the years. I chose not to employee those who couldn't couple their knowledge with courtesy and respect for others and those who believed they were perfect and always right. I have encountered those who thought their knowledge was infallible often on forums and rudely expressed so. However, the vast majority of engineers I've dealt with in person are talented in both the technical and human side of the profession.

Saw this innumerable times in my career. I have enormous respect for engineers, having worked with hundreds of them in my career (and not that this is limited to engineers; it applies to many specialists). Those who "got" the human side of being in business, tended to advance/ succeed. Those who didn't tended to stay put (or sometimes briefly advanced and were pulled back). Some failed spectacularly. To be sure, some were just fine spending their careers working on inanimate problems and avoiding the human side altogether. I think engineering schools have recognized the career-limiting pitfalls of this behavior; most of the younger engineers I've seen in recent years are both technically proficient and skilled in human relations.
 
I think anybody who sticks their oar into this discussion gets what they deserve...oops...
 
On boat diesel there is an active thread about a never serviced 15 year old Cummins after cooler. Some advice offered is do nothing. Hummmm.

My boat was 13 years old when I bought it with 350 hours on it. It was quite evident the aftercoolers had never been touched. While we ran the boat down the lake to the haul out facility, it did not qualify as a full sea trial. The boat came out of the water, the exterior metals were absolutely eaten up. THe survey ended right there. It was apparent the engines ran fine as there was no blow by. I still bought the boat but at half the asking price due to the risk I was taking and the underwater metals that needed to be replaced. The risk paid off although a fuel cooler failure almost rained on my parade. I guess you could say it sprinkled on my parade because that failure was not without cost.
 
Nalcool or an other flushing system is usually Required with every anti freeze change on engines new enough to require SCA in their cooling system..

After a 2 part flush distilled water is cheap enough for a couple of extra flushes before installing coolant mix.
 

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