Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-31-2017, 06:59 PM   #41
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Athens View Post
David you need to Man Up.. When someone posts factually bad info and wants to sell it as “gospel”, you know I do not take any prisoners with something like this.. Needs to be stopped cold in its tracks, and you need to learn and understand what I just posted, and then rethink your perceptions & thoughts as to what is going on inside the aftercoolers.. In the long run it will help you.

Tony
Tony,

Since I am not mechanically inclined and have to depend on folks like you with the experience, let me ask...

I have a Cummins QSB 5.9L engine operating in salt water that has 6 years of service. As near as I can tell, the aftercooler has been serviced only once, after I bought the boat this last spring. I had the servicing done by a well respected local diesel shop. I do not, unfortunately, know their exact procedures when they reassembled the aftercooler. I likely won't be servicing the aftercooler myself, at least until I retire. It will be serviced by the shop local to me here in Tacoma.

If I don't start fresh water flushing, how often should I have the aftercooler serviced? If I did start using a fresh water flush, how often should I have the aftercooler serviced?
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 08:26 PM   #42
Veteran Member


 
City: Oxnard, Calif
Vessel Name: Local Bam=nks
Vessel Model: Custom 36Ft Wilson Sportfisher
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 54
Service it right and you are good for 2 yrs in saltwater.. If in fresh water, probably 4-5 yrs..Remember, it has nothing to to with engine hours--It's all about "Marine Age"
__________________

__________________
Tony Athens
https://www.sbmar.com

"For All things Cummins That Make Sense & Cents"
Tony Athens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 08:33 PM   #43
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,310
Acid is better for cleaning than communication.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 08:52 PM   #44
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher500 View Post
When you drive across a bridge, and it didn't collapse, or fly in an airplane, and it didn't fall, be glad.
I think you did not understand what I mean.
Lou_tribal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 09:31 PM   #45
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Athens View Post
Service it right and you are good for 2 yrs in saltwater.. If in fresh water, probably 4-5 yrs..Remember, it has nothing to to with engine hours--It's all about "Marine Age"
Thanks Tony. So would that mean that if I was to do a fresh water flush after each use, that I could stretch that to 4 years instead of 2?
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 07:17 AM   #46
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
David - I have always learned when I was reading and listening during my lifetime.
I have never learned when I was speaking or posting myself.

YMMV - but that has been my experiences so far these 60+ years and at times I have been amazed it was such a difficult concept for ME to learn.
Good, but...

OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 07:50 AM   #47
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,834
Good, but...

"OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)

-Chris "




Hello Chris,

I do get your point and I have compared it a few times but that is not what it says unless someone wants to 'hear' that from the post.


Maybe we can agree completely on some background information that led up to this point.
- Dave has been on a few posts asking for 'real' feedback on these subjects, this is not the first
- He received similar feedback a few times from various folks with first hand experience on this board
- Tony has been writing on these subjects for over 20 years on a few sites including boatdiesel. Perhaps you or I may not always agree with him but he is pretty clear and pretty consistent with his opinions. I happen to follow his advice 100% but that just comes from my experiences with his suggestions over time.
- For those that have spoken to Tony on the phone (I have) he is always to the point and can be pretty 'rough'. YMMV but I find that a breath of fresh air when I really want to know what is going on with a marine diesel problem.
- If anyone has kept up on Tony's tips or articles over the years they would already know his opinion on this subject. Similarly they would know his opinion of engine loading and fuel filtration. There is no shades of grey with Tony - you know what he thinks after you read his articles and posts
- Dave wrote up a procedure that some would not agree with and maybe some like, which he asked for feedback.
- Then he went out of his way to solicit Tony's best advice on this procedure. When he did not get a response on this site he posted on Tony's site as well.


I see and hear much more than this reading on Sbmar(dot)com but this is a decent summary.
Certainly one of the "really a shame" situations here is that I believe Dave has a 6cy Yanmar engine and not even a Cummins. I have found that Tony is very good with the Yanmar as well as I had one and he helped me but I see no way that anyone would know that be reading this thread.
Once again - knowing that he has that engine and reading a few of his posts on cruising loads I really think Tony's article would help him immensely to avoid engine problems and assure a long life.
As I said before - I have learned a whole lot of things the hard way. In other words I am ignorant about enough subjects to fill an entire encyclopedia set. Always hoping that someone can be saved of making the same mistakes by posting some thoughts and/or a link to help avoid that.


Hope this helps
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 08:35 AM   #48
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,787
Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does. There are a thousand ways to strongly disagree with someone who's posted an opinion -- and expressed it as such -- without going off on them and throwing personal insults. It think pro advice is fantastic and I'm always grateful for it . . . but how it's delivered matters.
angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 09:28 AM   #49
Guru
 
City: Hampton, va
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: 2003 Ocean Alexander 456
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,041
Ditto

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does. There are a thousand ways to strongly disagree with someone who's posted an opinion -- and expressed it as such -- without going off on them and throwing personal insults. It think pro advice is fantastic and I'm always grateful for it . . . but how it's delivered matters.
My ears are tuned to the same frequency as Dave's. Tony's site contains tons of useful information. After purchasing our OA 456, I serviced the after-coolers in accordance with his instructions. I think he knows his stuff.

But, it would seem to me that a less brusque manner would be helpful. I can't imagine any of us would have learned much in our life if the lessons had started off "you're probably too stupid to get this, but I'll waste my time anyway, so listen up knuckle-head."

When he was on boat diesel, I frequently cringed seeing how rudely he responded to folks.

Gordon
Gordon J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 09:53 AM   #50
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Good, but...

OTOH, I almost never had a successful teaching moment by starting out with "You dumbass, you're dumber than dirt and you'll never ever understand what I'm about to shout in your ears because you're stupid and unteachable!" (Imagine that in all caps, as in shouting.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
Hello Chris,

I do get your point and I have compared it a few times but that is not what it says unless someone wants to 'hear' that from the post.

Maybe we can agree completely on some background information that led up to this point.

- For those that have spoken to Tony on the phone (I have) he is always to the point and can be pretty 'rough'. YMMV but I find that a breath of fresh air when I really want to know what is going on with a marine diesel problem.

Not to worry, I wasn't reacting to, or speaking about, the facts he presented. No debate there, at least from me. (I don't know enough.) I respect Tony's expertise, consider him a very valuable member of the forum -- hope he continues that -- and would certainly defer to his knowledge and experience.

My comment was only about how to better influence, train, educate people. Facts are good, don't have to be painted especially for rose-colored glasses, no need for "political correctness," etc... but "you're a dumbass" isn't a fact -- well, I assume it's not -- and generally doesn't help people keep their ears open.

Straightforward is good. "You're wrong" (and similar) is easily acceptable. "Your a turd for thinking that way" probably isn't gonna convince anyone (especially the "turd") very quickly.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 10:05 AM   #51
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,253
My wife worked in the same office as Admiral Nimitz. I've had some very tough bosses. Criticism abounds from those who have been there and done that. Never seen Tony Athens respond poorly to well intentioned questions. Learning can be difficult.

Debating serious matters on an internet forum like TF sends many quickly to Yacht Forums where more experts reside. Which brings to mind, David you may want to post your writings on YF for additional and valuable feedback.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 10:39 AM   #52
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,834
"Respectfully, Smitty, I hear it the same way Chris does."
"Straightforward is good. "You're wrong" (and similar) is easily acceptable."
"But, it would seem to me that a less brusque manner would be helpful"
"Never seen Tony Athens respond poorly to well intentioned questions. Learning can be difficult"


Angus99, GordonJ, Ranger42c and Sunchaser,

Thank you for the feedback.
I would like to point out post #24 which begins this way.....




"David,

I've been thinking about this posting for awhile and really need to respond as I feel very strongly you are putting out some very bad info, or at very least, giving mis-guided info based on a very limited amount of field data.

My goal here is to help all, not to disagree, but to show that what you are saying, has no basis in long term application--It's really no different than the couch engineers at Cummins that never heard the term "Marine Age" nor understood what really is going on inside any aftercooler of mixed metal construction in the field... What is "says" on paper , including "zincs" has ZERO value is real life or in actual application........ Here goes:"


This is a person who owns a business doing this taking time to try and post his opinions again even though they have been written in stone many times. That was his first attempt to get a common ground and hopefully help out. I have called up Tony 3 times over the past 20 years and he has gotten on the phone each time to answer my questions and help out. No way he would remember me but each time he was of great help and exactly correct in his guidance. I am not defending Tony only pointing out that you can just as easily call him up and he will talk with you if you like. I would suggest that since Dave wanted to get some type of feedback from him that he or any of us could just call him up.
IMHO - you can disagree with someone but when you pursue that person for an opinion knowing his position and then follow onto his business site and not accept the first or second responses given it will likely get much more clear in further posts.






For any of you that have these engines - I strongly suggest you follow on Tony's technical tips and his articles on these engines. It has saved some of my friends and I countless $10,000 of dollars and time over the years
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 12:29 PM   #53
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
I would like to point out post #24 which begins this way.....

Yep. That one seemed like a good post, to me.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 11:09 PM   #54
TF Site Team
 
City: Ex-Brisbane, (Australia), now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,945
Ok, so the general view appears to be, no matter how qualified one might be, the rules of civil discussion still apply. I have no problem with that at all. r
__________________
Pete
Peter B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 03:39 AM   #55
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,279
I've employed many engineers over the years. I chose not to employee those who couldn't couple their knowledge with courtesy and respect for others and those who believed they were perfect and always right. I have encountered those who thought their knowledge was infallible often on forums and rudely expressed so. However, the vast majority of engineers I've dealt with in person are talented in both the technical and human side of the profession.

Fortunately, I have no knowledge on the topic of this discussion and will express only one view and that's one someone else expressed very early in the process. If my engine manufacturer recommends it, then I'm ok with it. If they recommend against it, I'm opposed.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 07:49 AM   #56
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Fortunately, I have no knowledge on the topic of this discussion and will express only one view and that's one someone else expressed very early in the process. If my engine manufacturer recommends it, then I'm ok with it. If they recommend against it, I'm opposed.
Does anyone have an engine manual or service bulletin for an after cooled marine engine that discusses acid flushing the AC in place? I don't think so. That doesn't mean it can't safely be done with the right product. It just means the light marine engine builders install after coolers but are flummoxed as to proper service protocols.

For most engines we use, Tony's after cooler advice has proven successful. On boat diesel there is an active thread about a never serviced 15 year old Cummins after cooler. Some advice offered is do nothing. Hummmm.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 08:15 AM   #57
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I've employed many engineers over the years. I chose not to employee those who couldn't couple their knowledge with courtesy and respect for others and those who believed they were perfect and always right. I have encountered those who thought their knowledge was infallible often on forums and rudely expressed so. However, the vast majority of engineers I've dealt with in person are talented in both the technical and human side of the profession.
Saw this innumerable times in my career. I have enormous respect for engineers, having worked with hundreds of them in my career (and not that this is limited to engineers; it applies to many specialists). Those who "got" the human side of being in business, tended to advance/ succeed. Those who didn't tended to stay put (or sometimes briefly advanced and were pulled back). Some failed spectacularly. To be sure, some were just fine spending their careers working on inanimate problems and avoiding the human side altogether. I think engineering schools have recognized the career-limiting pitfalls of this behavior; most of the younger engineers I've seen in recent years are both technically proficient and skilled in human relations.
angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 01:27 PM   #58
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,797
I think anybody who sticks their oar into this discussion gets what they deserve...oops...
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #59
TF Site Team/Forum Founder
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
Vessel Model: Meridian 411
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
On boat diesel there is an active thread about a never serviced 15 year old Cummins after cooler. Some advice offered is do nothing. Hummmm.
My boat was 13 years old when I bought it with 350 hours on it. It was quite evident the aftercoolers had never been touched. While we ran the boat down the lake to the haul out facility, it did not qualify as a full sea trial. The boat came out of the water, the exterior metals were absolutely eaten up. THe survey ended right there. It was apparent the engines ran fine as there was no blow by. I still bought the boat but at half the asking price due to the risk I was taking and the underwater metals that needed to be replaced. The risk paid off although a fuel cooler failure almost rained on my parade. I guess you could say it sprinkled on my parade because that failure was not without cost.
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B...Sold
Meridian 411...T-Cummins 450C
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2017, 08:02 AM   #60
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 21,943
Nalcool or an other flushing system is usually Required with every anti freeze change on engines new enough to require SCA in their cooling system..

After a 2 part flush distilled water is cheap enough for a couple of extra flushes before installing coolant mix.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×