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Old 03-04-2020, 08:24 AM   #21
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On the starting battery layout, I see no issue with the generator sharing with the windlass and thruster. Just make sure that both the engine and generator have a battery switch layout that allows either one to be started from the other's start battery.
Hmmmm, thruster and windlass amp draws are pretty large in comparison to most small genset needs. Interesting battery choices taking into account space, cable runs and DC motor requirements.
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:27 AM   #22
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Hmmmm, thruster and windlass amp draws are pretty large in comparison to most small genset needs. Interesting battery choices taking into account space, cable runs and DC motor requirements.
Agreed. But it's unlikely that the thrusters or windlass would be in use while cranking the genset (and it's plenty of battery to start the gen). So it's functionally fine. I'd rather see those loads combined with genset start than engine start, as I prefer having engine start power independent and with no other loads on it to minimize the risk of it not being there (and needing to switch to backup starting power).
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:52 AM   #23
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Agreed. But it's unlikely that the thrusters or windlass would be in use while cranking the genset (and it's plenty of battery to start the gen). So it's functionally fine. I'd rather see those loads combined with genset start than engine start, as I prefer having engine start power independent and with no other loads on it to minimize the risk of it not being there (and needing to switch to backup starting power).
By far, most challenging part of refitting a 36-foot boat - especially a Willard 36 that is not exactly a large 36-footer, is fitting 10-lbs of potatoes into a 5-lb sack. Many of the attributes that make it a good sea-boat work against it for stores: low decks. Back in the 1960s, generators were not common, certainly not watermakers and other spacious attachments.

I fully understand not having a dedicated gen-start battery is not a best practice. My thinking is multiple charging sources make it an acceptable trade-off: 800W solar, two alternators, a third 15A alternator off the Generator that will go to the 2xG31 AGM bank, and a DC-DC charger from house bank. If it proves otherwise, I'll have to make some choices and find a place for yet another battery and cabling. But I do agree it's a compromise I was willing to make for gen start, but rslifkin states, not one to make for engine-start (which is dedicated).

Thanks for the comments.

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Old 03-04-2020, 08:55 AM   #24
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I fully understand not having a dedicated gen-start battery is not a best practice. My thinking in making the tradeoff is with multiple charging sources it's an acceptable trade-off (800W solar, two alternators, and DC-DC charger from house bank). If it proves otherwise, I'll have to make some choices and find a place for yet another battery and cabling. But I do agree it's a compromise.
I don't really see your choice of gen start power as an issue. My gen shares a battery with one of my engines, for example. As long as you can start the gen and engine from 2 different power sources, you're in good shape. And the windlass and thruster wouldn't typically be used without the engine running, so power drain on those batteries isn't a concern.
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Old 03-04-2020, 09:14 AM   #25
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I purchased the 150A Balmar along with serpentine belt kit from TAD so assume they are compatible, but since I am running a second alternator, will run the 70A with replacement serpentine kit. 150A as a solo-belt off second 6-groove sheave. But I also have a third belt-driven load: hydraulic pump for stabilizers. These were originally run off a v-belt, but since the pump is new, might make sense to just run it as a 6-groove belt too. Would mean a triple-sheave on the crank shaft. Now, the old setup had 4-5 v-belt sheaves for stuff that OP had installed and is long gone, but still, wondering if that's just too much to hang off the crankshaft unsupported?

Was hoping there was a bolt-on sheave setup. Looks like there are replacements for v-belt. Have not found same for 6-groove. But machining a new one may not be too bad. Thanks -

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When considering adding hydraulics for a bow thruster, my final choice was to direct drive it off My ZF 280.1 transmission. ZF makes an adapter assembly that bolts the hydraulic pump to the transmission. 2nd choice was to direct drive it off the crankshaft on the front of the engine. This required a little more fabrication, but is commonly done on commercial boats and most cement mixer trucks. Ultimately I switched the bow thruster to 24 volt and saves probably $6K.

In order of preference, I would direct drive the pump off the crankshaft 1st, run the pump and 150 amp alternator off an 8 groove serpentine belt (this will require atleast 1 idler pulley to ensure proper belt contact with all pulleys) (this will also be tough to fabricate and align all the pulleys) 2nd, and have 3 belt configurations off the crankshaft would be 3rd.

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Old 03-04-2020, 11:24 AM   #26
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Just bear in mind that your Balmar 150A 6-Series should be set up, using belt load manager, to not exceed max safe temp specs. The Alt temp sensor is great back up insurance policy to belt load manager.

No small frame alternator, unless externally rectified, is "constant duty". Charging LFP is constant duty stuff and, typically speaking, a large frame alternator is going to net you more of the "rated" output than a small frame unit will. Reduce the output ahead of time using belt load manager and your alternator will thank you for it. Another alternative is to use the Wakespeed WS500 regulator and you can now set the alternator to run based off a maximum specified temperature.

LFP likes to eat alternators for lunch.
I learned the hard way that alternator cooling is paramount. My Alt temp sensing cable was connected by the installer to the ground lug. In most cases, that's the proper location. On my 621-series Balmar, the ground lug is offset on an L bracket from the case for tight mount confines and does not provide a good point from which to measure the alt temp. My alternator fried itself trying to put out max juice at extended high idle speeds during photo shoots without adequate cooling or temp protection.

CMS/Rod pointed out this issue with these 6-series alternators and advised me about a small (#10?) threaded hole on the frame that is intended to provide the temp sensing connection. He also advised me on the Belt Manager settings and told me that some have to revert to a dedicated blower to keep the alt temp within limits.

Sure enough, Rod was right again! After having the Balmar rebuilt locally, I moved the temp sensor to the appropriate mount location and the regulator ramped down the output as the temp reached 135*. In the following weeks, I added a dedicated blower to the Balmar and now, all is well.

Over time I've learned that it's all about balancing power, loads and cooling. A HUGE THANKS to Rod/CMS for his help in identifying the problem and suggesting practical, sound solutions to the issue. Hat tip to CMS!
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:07 PM   #27
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I also added a second alternator to my John Deere 6068 engine. I wanted a second belt, and contacted two JD dealers and was told that there was no front pulley available for that engine. So I had a machine shop make a round plate and a stub shaft bolted to the vibration damper. I attached a pulley that I bought at an Industrial supply. The second alternator is 70A and normally is connected only to the start battery. I also added a second regulator, and a crossover switch that I can close if either alternator malfunctions.
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:13 PM   #28
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When considering adding hydraulics for a bow thruster, my final choice was to direct drive it off My ZF 280.1 transmission. ZF makes an adapter assembly that bolts the hydraulic pump to the transmission. 2nd choice was to direct drive it off the crankshaft on the front of the engine. This required a little more fabrication, but is commonly done on commercial boats and most cement mixer trucks. Ultimately I switched the bow thruster to 24 volt and saves probably $6K.



In order of preference, I would direct drive the pump off the crankshaft 1st, run the pump and 150 amp alternator off an 8 groove serpentine belt (this will require atleast 1 idler pulley to ensure proper belt contact with all pulleys) (this will also be tough to fabricate and align all the pulleys) 2nd, and have 3 belt configurations off the crankshaft would be 3rd.



Ted


If direct drive like this is possible, I too would highly recommend it. I’ve seen too many boats with problems with belt driven pumps.
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Old 03-06-2020, 09:58 AM   #29
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Not sure

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Folks - could use some good thinking on whether I should add a second alternator or not; and if I do, how it should be run.

BACKGROUND (see DC diagram attached):
  • Weebles: Willard 36 with single Perkins 4.236 (80hp).120VAC and 12VDC (no 240VAC, no 24VDC)
  • Battery Banks:
    • 600AH Lithium house
    • 2x group 31 AGM for gen start, thruster, and windlass. Note, gen does not have dedicated battery. Frankly, I am out of room.
    • 1x group 31 AGM for engine start
NOTE - there is a Renogy DC-DC converter between the Lithium batteries and the AGM/G31s
  • Charging Sources (all new):
    • 150A Balmar regulated alternator (primary)
    • 70A Balmar regulated alternator (secondary - sort of a freebie - question is should I install this, and if so, where/how?)
    • 15A alternator on the generator (useless?)
    • 800kw solar panels
    • 3.2 kw Magnum hybrid charger (shore power or gen set)
EXAM QUESTIONS:
  • See hand-written notes on attached diagram. I already have the two Balmar alternators. Q: Should I install the second one? Engine is out of the boat and sitting on a bench, so welding a bracket is pretty easy at this point.
  • Q: If I add the second Balmar, where should I run the 70A hot?
    • Same bus-bar feeding the House bank as the 150A making 220A
    • Different bus bar feeding the G31s AGMs?
    • Don't bother with the second Balmar?
    • Something else?
    Q: What to do with the weeny output of the 15A alternator on the NL 6kw generator? Anything?
  • Other comments/observations are welcomed. Attached wiring diagram has been changed a bit, but for purposes of this post, is correct for the DC wiring.
Thanks in advance!

Peter
Attachment 100087

Attachment 100088

Everyone jumped in to tell you how to do it. I am wondering why a 150 amp alternator by itself is not enough. What problem are you trying to solve? During the day, you solar is adding about 20 amps/hour.

In my case, I have a 900 amp firefly batter bank powered by to 110 amp Alternator’s controlled by Balmar regulators. My 24 volt bow thruster is only charged when I am on shore power or connected to gen set. My two generators have separate batteries.

Are you running so much equipment on the boat that the 150 amp alternator can’t keep up? Have you arrived at destination to find depleted batteries or have you cooked the alternator? I mean Alternator’s are cheap. Why go to all this work?
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:13 AM   #30
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Everyone jumped in to tell you how to do it. I am wondering why a 150 amp alternator by itself is not enough. What problem are you trying to solve? During the day, you solar is adding about 20 amps/hour.

In my case, I have a 900 amp firefly batter bank powered by to 110 amp Alternator’s controlled by Balmar regulators. My 24 volt bow thruster is only charged when I am on shore power or connected to gen set. My two generators have separate batteries.

Are you running so much equipment on the boat that the 150 amp alternator can’t keep up? Have you arrived at destination to find depleted batteries or have you cooked the alternator? I mean Alternator’s are cheap. Why go to all this work?
Think you missed that the 70 amp was the original and the 150 amp may not fit there or may require substantial changes to the crankshaft pulley harmonic balancer to accommodate the required belt change.

Personally, I like the concept of redundant alternators for a single engine cruising boat.

Ted
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:26 AM   #31
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Think you missed that the 70 amp was the original and the 150 amp may not fit there or may require substantial changes to the crankshaft pulley harmonic balancer to accommodate the required belt change.

Personally, I like the concept of redundant alternators for a single engine cruising boat.

Ted
Engine is sitting on a bench in a shop in Ensenada MX so this type of work is relatively inexpensive. I had the 70A alternator but wanted to upgrade. Might as well go dual at this point.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:08 PM   #32
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Yup, missed the point. I thought you had 150 and wanted to add 70. Still, Alternator’s are easy to change. I think I would keep it simple and simply have a spare on board. Maybe go to a 150 and keep spare.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:13 PM   #33
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I am confused. You said the 70 was donated and that the 150 is primary. If you have the 150 installed, I would stay with that and by a spare.
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:40 PM   #34
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I am confused. You said the 70 was donated and that the 150 is primary. If you have the 150 installed, I would stay with that and by a spare.
Pic of the engine shows the Delco 70A standard alternator. I had purchased a 70A Balmar several years ago but never installed. I do want more charging so decided to purchase and install a 150A Balmar which required adding serpentine style belt. My thinking is that as long as I have the space and the cost is minimal, might as well just install the 70A Balmar as a second alternator vs carrying in a locker.

I like TTs application of daisy chaining them together. I see he liked it so much that he is doing same on his new boat, which tells me it worked pretty well.
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:08 PM   #35
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I had a very similar setup on my last boat, and ended up reworking it to be pretty much like what you are contemplating. I liked it so much, I'm doing it again on the new boat.


The setup was a 190A and and 85A alternator on the main engine. They were originally wired with the 190 to the house bank and the 85 to the start bank, each with it's own external regulator.


90% of the time the 85A alternator was doing nothing, so I rewired so both the 190 and 85 went to the house bank for a combined 275A output.



I also controlled both of them together from a single external charge regulator. This may seem counter intuitive, and lots of people will tell you you can't do it, but it actually works exceptionally well. Both alternators are driven by the save Field output from the regulator, and each drives to the same proportion of it's full output capacity. When the controller commands half field, or half output, each alternator puts out half of it's capacity. So the 190 puts out 80A, and the 85 puts out 42.5A. At full commanded output, they both put out full power. So it's always naturally balanced to each unit's capacity.


To charge the start bank, I used a DC to DC charger, Mastervolt in my case.


And my generator I left alone and it charged the generator start bank.


If you search my blog, there is an article on it.
I second all of this, however, I'd ideally use two identical HO alternators, unlike Tanglewood the stock alternator you show in the photo almost certainly isn't designed for continuous high output, so it will likely overheat, especially if charging LFP batteries, and as TW says use a single regulator, with both alt's sending output to the house bank, then share that charge from the house bank to start bank using one of several available devices such as Mastervolt DC-DC converter, Magnum SBC etc.

More on regulators here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a...ge-regulation/

And large battery banks https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...nk133_03-1.pdf
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:34 PM   #36
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I second all of this, however, I'd ideally use two identical HO alternators, unlike Tanglewood the stock alternator you show in the photo almost certainly isn't designed for continuous high output, so it will likely overheat, especially if charging LFP batteries, and as TW says use a single regulator, with both alt's sending output to the house bank, then share that charge from the house bank to start bank using one of several available devices such as Mastervolt DC-DC converter, Magnum SBC etc.

More on regulators here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a...ge-regulation/

And large battery banks https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...nk133_03-1.pdf
Steve - as always, many thanks. The stock alternator goes away entirely. I have a spare 70A Balmar that I never installed, so will be 150A Balmar + 70A Balmar. Assume running two different amperage is okay?

BTW - for others, I just finished reading a recent Ken's Blog that features Steve's good work. He's really tops in the business.

https://www.kensblog.com/kensblog-in...t-the-factory/

Peter
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Old 03-09-2020, 04:14 PM   #37
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Stock alternators from the factory don't output their full AMP's. The internal regulator drops down the charging substantially so a 70 amp alternator will give you something like 35 amps.

The solution is Balmar or Electromaax regulator. With these regulator you turn your alternator into a smart one. Temperature is monitored and charging adjusted if the alternator gets too hot. For reasons I can not explain and I don't understand, the output is pretty much maximum when using these regulators and less stress on the engine and stuff than using two alternators. I would use the 150 amp alternator with regulator (note: you have to by pass the internal regulator, I'll link to a Jeff Cote talk).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:17 PM   #38
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It's convenient to have two alternators on a single FL 120. With two different battery banks; 2 group 31's for start and 6 golf carts for house the charging requirements are vastly different. With two alternators, there is no need for charge relays and other electronics to split a single alternator outputs to two battery banks. And it adds reduncy.

I have an 85 amp Leece Neville alternator with external Balmar Max Charge 614 regulator for the starting batteries. Which also powers the generator, thruster, windlass, 2 radars and autopilot. The 85 amp alternator is located in the stock location using stock mount, and belt. The output is dialed down to 50 amps.

An 150 amp Powerline alternator with another Max Charge 614 regulator for house powers everything else. The 150 amp alternator is located next to the other alternator mounted with a custom mount and add on double pulleys. The output on this alternator is set at 100 amps most of the year and cranked up to maximum output after being on the hook for several days and moving to another anchorage during the summer.

Both alternators have temp sensors on batteries and alternators

The start and house banks are totally isolated from each other. There is a selector that can parallel the two banks in an emergency.

This system was installed on Sandpiper 19 years ago. Had an identical system on a Mainship with single Perkins T6.3544 for 15 years with older Balmar external regulators.
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Old 03-10-2020, 06:41 AM   #39
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It's convenient to have two alternators on a single FL 120. With two different battery banks; 2 group 31's for start and 6 golf carts for house the charging requirements are vastly different. With two alternators, there is no need for charge relays and other electronics to split a single alternator outputs to two battery banks. And it adds reduncy.

I have an 85 amp Leece Neville alternator with external Balmar Max Charge 614 regulator for the starting batteries. Which also powers the generator, thruster, windlass, 2 radars and autopilot. The 85 amp alternator is located in the stock location using stock mount, and belt. The output is dialed down to 50 amps.

An 150 amp Powerline alternator with another Max Charge 614 regulator for house powers everything else. The 150 amp alternator is located next to the other alternator mounted with a custom mount and add on double pulleys. The output on this alternator is set at 100 amps most of the year and cranked up to maximum output after being on the hook for several days and moving to another anchorage during the summer.

Both alternators have temp sensors on batteries and alternators

The start and house banks are totally isolated from each other. There is a selector that can parallel the two banks in an emergency.

This system was installed on Sandpiper 19 years ago. Had an identical system on a Mainship with single Perkins T6.3544 for 15 years with older Balmar external regulators.
That's how my system is set up. One of the guiding principles on mine is that I started with a new John Deere engine, and everything driven by the original serpentine belt was engineered to work together without any added load on that belt system. The alternator was designed to maintain the start battery with its standard internal regulator. There was nothing I could do to make it more reliable. There were a lot of things I could do, or add to make it less reliable. Driving a large frame alternator with an external regulator on its own belt gives me the additional power to the separate battery bank I need. Don't see how you can get more reliable than split systems without shared electronics or DC to DC battery chargers.

Ted
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Old 03-10-2020, 06:46 AM   #40
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"The start and house banks are totally isolated from each other. There is a selector that can parallel the two banks in an emergency."


Standard KISS (sail or motor) for many decades. Works great.
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