Tragedy in Ft Myers

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Capitaine R

Capitaine R

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
424
Location
U.S.A.
Vessel Name
Charlie Noble
Vessel Make
32 Nordic Tug
Be careful of drunken guests onboard.
I am sure her drunken state made the situation much worse.
Drinking to excess is an individuals choice and she was an adult, and probably drank a lot in life. Many drunks think they can handle it, But it handles them. It can eventually catch up to you your behavior, result in death.

Sabo's blood alcohol level at 0.036 (LOW) and Irene Sabo's at 0.207. (HIGH)

A blood-alcohol level of 0.08 is the legal driving or boating under the influence level in Florida. My opinion is was her fault mostly, and he was not high enough to be legally impaired.

0.20-0.29%: Stupor, confusion, feeling dazed, and disorientation are common. Standing and walking may require help, as balance and muscle control will have deteriorated significantly. Sensations of pain will change, so if you fall and seriously hurt yourself, you may not notice, and you are less likely to do anything about it. Nausea and vomiting are likely to occur, and the gag reflex will be impaired, which could cause choking or aspirating on vomit. Blackouts begin at this BAC, so you may participate in events that you don’t remember.
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0.02%: This is the lowest level of intoxication with some measurable impact on the brain and body. You will feel relaxed, experience altered mood, feel a little warmer, and may make poor judgments.
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the next designated level is 0.05%
https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/
 
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Like other topics, this will deteriorate into opinions and we probably won't know the actual cause of the fatality.


Even though I don't think all alcohol is the "demons brew", I admit a BAC of 0.2 is beyond my comprehension under normal circumstances.
 
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While a tragedy, the owner / operator of a boat needs to be responsible the SAFE operation of the vessel, safety of those onboard and other vessels and people in the water that the vessel may come in contact with.

I think he should be tried and convicted of maybe involuntary manslaughter; made to pay all associated costs with the incident; given probation and substantial community service.

Punishment isn't only for the guilty, but also serves as a deterrent to others.

Ted
 
Capitaine R said:
Almost every time we go to Ft Myers beach we see people doing dangerous stuff like this, It was just a matter of time. Very sad. And then to think the husband may end up in jail, I'm kind of torn between if he should face charges or not. Either way he is going to have to live with this for the rest of his life.
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Unless the facts are materially different than the newspaper article, it would surprise me if the DA brings charges. His worse crime was being married to a drunk who probably was well on her way to death via liver disease. He has probably suffered enough already.
 
Tradegy: absolutely!
Fault of the Captain: certainly questionable, and certainly irresponsible.


Bottom line, if on chooses to have drunk people on their boat, the level of responsibility becomes a lot more challenging.


Now, I'm sure he knew her behavior a and could surmise that this was not her first time she got drunk. He did say that he warned her to stay away from the prop, however, being drunk she may not behave predictably. So, get the kid to take mom, and others, clearly on the side of the boat.


Or better yet, put them in the front of the boat. If the boat is stuck where that won't work, it's probably a short 6 hour wait til the tide come back up.
 
So, here's the question:


How to you handle folks that get too tipsy on your boat?
 
See it coming and prevent it...sure they can sneak it...but that is rare for newcomers and family or good friends that are drunks don't come or get watched like a hawk.


Like taking drunks on liberty.... you picked the battlefield on many levels.
 
We used to donate 4-6 hour cruises to charities to be auctioned off at their annual events.


We ended that when one guest got too drunk and jumped off the stern as I was anchoring and ready to back up to set the anchor. Only the shouts of the other guests let me know that something was wrong so I didn't back down.


Had I backed down to set the anchor she certainly would have been sucked into the props.


That was the last charity cruise we did. We decided the liability was just too great.


For myself, if I am going to move the boat I don't drink anything with alcohol in it. There's just too much responsibility and liability. Once we're docked or the anchor is dropped for the night then I'll have something to drink.
 
As the skipper of the boat, he is ultimately responsible for the safety of his passengers. If he allows them to get drunk, he is still responsible. As skipper he should not have allowed her to get in that condition in the first place. It may have pissed her off if he cut her off from the drinking but that was his responsibility. Then when they got stuck aground he should have exercised more caution since he knew she had been drinking heavily. He should have made certain that the passengers were completely out of the way before engaging the props. Sad that she got killed but in the end he screwed up. As a skipper you are responsible for everyone on the boat. Just because they got off the boat his responsibility did not end, he was the one that put the boat in gear. He had been drinking to some extent but not legally drunk so his judgment may have been somewhat impaired so he should have slowed down and thought it through. He should have made a plan and communicated it to everyone making sure they understood what was going to happen. He should have assigned someone to keep a watch on the drunk people to ensure that they were in a safe location. Whenever we are going to do an evolution even as simple as docking we make a plan and all agree that we all understand what is going to happen and know to communicate if the plan is not proceeding as planned. With more complex evolutions there should be more planning and communication. As the skipper it is your responsibility and you have to be willing and able to assume that responsibility. Everyone involved with the evolution should be asked for feedback and the feedback taken into consideration and possibly modifying the plan for that evolution. As skipper with 52 years boating experience I don’t always see all the angles and possible outcomes so I need to value everyone’s input. I always ask myself, what could go wrong and what can I do to mitigate the possible dangers. Then I ask everyone else the same thing. Most boaters do not realize their ultimate responsibility but that does not relieve them of that responsibility. Sorry if I sound like I am preaching but I was involved with the CG Auxiliary for 30 years and have seen situations like this up close and try to help boaters understand their responsibility and liabilities.
 
Seevee said:
So, here's the question:


How to you handle folks that get too tipsy on your boat?
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It's not allowed to happen. I don't like being around inebriated people. I don't host parties on my boat. I don't let people smoke pot on my boat. I've not had more than 3 other people on my boat away from the dock. Nothing wrong with a couple of beers or a bottle of wine with dinner. IMO, if you end up with tipsy people on your boat, you probably new it could happen and chose not to prevent it.

Ted
 
I'm with you O C I don't like more than 2 people on my small boat, maybe a couple more on the tug, not sure yet on that one. Any more than that just makes it more of a job to me than a day of enjoyment. and I never drink unless anchored for the night or at my own dock. Plus I have a CDL so the legal limits are lower and its just not worth it.
 
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I loved this quote from the article: "I was closest to the props because I know how to handle myself."
 
GFC said:
We used to donate 4-6 hour cruises to charities to be auctioned off at their annual events........

That was the last charity cruise we did. We decided the liability was just too great. .
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Yeah, I get it. I wanted to offer the same to a group of regional disabled vets, but my first offering resulted in so much drama and upset over use of alcohol aboard that I gave up trying to make it work. The last thing I wanted was to loose a genuine hero to an overboard accident, for God’s sake. The waterways here in FL are already dangerous enough.
 
boathealer said:
I loved this quote from the article: "I was closest to the props because I know how to handle myself."
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Yes, I noticed that quote also. No one should have been close to the props. And the skipper should have made sure of it.
 
This is it exactly. I and my family don't abuse alcohol and don't associate with those that do.

Since we are responsible for folks who are on our boats, it makes sense to do what it takes to avoid problems.

I would assume that Mrs. Sabo's intoxication was a major contributor to her death. Operating a boat with or around folks like that is a real risk.
smitty477 said:
If the boat is moving it does not happen.
If the boat is at a dock they get off the boat.
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Jeez, I don’t know about this one. I do know that when I’m at the helm I am responsible for all aboard. I do know that I would never tell anyone to get off.

About a month back while taking southerly out to diagnose an over heating issue, I drifted aground. I had 2 other people on board. I called tow boat. I was able to bring her back to the dock under her own power.

Who knows what really happened, but operating a vessel with people in the water requires extreme caution and a risk I am not willing to take, ever.
 
Wifey B: We don't allow drinking when boating. However, even for those who disagree with that, I suggest he should be held responsible. As captain, at least to bartender type rules of responsibility for over serving. Also, as captain, responsible for safe operation and for knowing where all his passengers are. "I didn't know where she was". Well, it's your responsibility. So I get involuntary manslaughter out of it.

Now, personally I'd like more. I know .036 is below legal limits but it's not in transportation and even at that rate, drivers are impaired. How much, differs. However, his judgment was lousy whether that played a role or not.

I wouldn't put him in prison for murder for decades. I'd suspend and ban him from operating boats. We don't gain by spending money on him in prison and other family members may need him, but he'd not be allowed to operated a boat ever again and a car for some period of time. :mad:
 
BandB said:
Wifey B: We don't allow drinking when boating. However, even for those who disagree with that, I suggest he should be held responsible. As captain, at least to bartender type rules of responsibility for over serving. Also, as captain, responsible for safe operation and for knowing where all his passengers are. "I didn't know where she was". Well, it's your responsibility. So I get involuntary manslaughter out of it.



Now, personally I'd like more. I know .036 is below legal limits but it's not in transportation and even at that rate, drivers are impaired. How much, differs. However, his judgment was lousy whether that played a role or not.



I wouldn't put him in prison for murder for decades. I'd suspend and ban him from operating boats. We don't gain by spending money on him in prison and other family members may need him, but he'd not be allowed to operated a boat ever again and a car for some period of time. :mad:
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I don’t have an abstinence policy (however I think there are all kinds of good arguments supporting it) and I certainly think that at .036 alcohol could have affected his judgement. Remember that was taken after the authorities had shown up and had the time to do a breath test so his BAC was likely higher when the incident happened.

There are other factors besides the alcohol. First, I think the guy’s general decision making processes are suspect since his wife was so intoxicated. He sounds stupid from square one. Secondly, it sounds as if he and his friends had been out most of the day in the sun drinking. At his age, although younger than I, sun exposure, fatigue, dehydration, hunger, etc... can affect judgement as well as alcohol. I know that on a typical Saturday when I get up early and start to do weekend catch-up work around the house or at the boat, I will often forget to eat or drink. I usually don’t think about it until about 3:00pm when I realize that I’m just stupid. Simple things are harder than they should be. It doesn’t take much alcohol for someone in that situation to make it even worse.

.08 is the “legal limit” in most US states for driving a care or operating a vehicle. That is way too high. Some states have gone to .05 and after having done a test on myself, even that is way too high to be operating a boat or any kind of vehicle.

So yeah, it sounds like he is largely responsible for his wife’s death. Feeling bad about it, or it being a “tragic accident” doesn’t relieve him of criminal liability in my mind.
 
Agree 100%. My wife and I very much enjoy a beer or two, sometimes three for me but we never, and I mean never, drink anything alcoholic while underway. Only when safely docked or anchored do we sit back and enjoy a good brew. Good brew is defined by us as anything not Budweiser.

As for charity cruises, the same holds true for us concerning boat crawls at rendevous. We opened our boat just once and some of the visitors cured us for all time. Nice folks, all, and no drunks but several visitors were so limited physically that we were quite concerned some one of them was going to take a header getting on or off the boat. There was one guy who clearly had no business even thinking about boat ownership.
GFC said:
We used to donate 4-6 hour cruises to charities to be auctioned off at their annual events.


We ended that when one guest got too drunk and jumped off the stern as I was anchoring and ready to back up to set the anchor. Only the shouts of the other guests let me know that something was wrong so I didn't back down.


Had I backed down to set the anchor she certainly would have been sucked into the props.


That was the last charity cruise we did. We decided the liability was just too great.


For myself, if I am going to move the boat I don't drink anything with alcohol in it. There's just too much responsibility and liability. Once we're docked or the anchor is dropped for the night then I'll have something to drink.
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Something similar happened in Miami several years ago. The boat belong to a popular local disc jockey. One of the guys trying to help push the boat felon it to the propeller and was eviscerated. Getting home on time simply not that important compared to someone's life. Much smarter the wait for the tide or call seatow. Under no circumstances allow anyone in back of the boat on the propellers are spinning
Interesting coincidence was that boat was also a triple engine center console
 
Hmmm

A lot of judgement here of the gentleman driving the boat with respect to controlling his wife’s drinking to excess.

You make it sound like he actually had a choice wether she drank to excess or not.

Clearly you’ve never been married to someone that drinks to excess.

Here’s the way it really works guys...

You give up trying to control your spouses drinking. You end up at a point where you have a choice. You either do everything alone, or you put up with their excesses. Oh sure at first you try to correct their behavior, and if they have other behaviors that make them intolerable you do not stay married.

But if they simply drink to excess, and you are not able to stop them you really do not get a choice if you want to continue the marriage.

His failure was not letting his wife get drunk.

His failure was letting anyone get anywhere near a spinning prop, within range that if they slipped or stumbled they could come in contact with it.

That, my friends is his failure.
 
K Sanders
I 100% agree with you. These tragedies have shown us anything. Never ever let anybody near a running engine from spinning propeller. That boat could have sat on the Sand Bar. Over nite even if they had to pay to have it towed off their life would be much happier today
 
Kevin....been at a point where I locked the bedroom door for the night...not knowing if my safety was compromised.


Totally understand where rational thought teeters with hopelessness of getting one's life back.


Could account for his drinking too.


Of course he could be just a total A**...but there could be way more to the story...no excuses for the outcome...but may change the punishment views.
 
Drunks, and careless people, should own jet drives, I guess.
 
Unfortunately, growing up on a lake with lots of people in the water, water skiing very popular, this happened periodically. There were boaters who just didn't respect the danger. We had a boat with a huge sun pad and a few boats even have rear facing seats almost on the swim platform. We never let anyone on the sun pad while the engines were running.

I live in fear of someone getting hurt badly or killed while boating with us. That fear doesn't paralyze me (thinking of other fear thread) but it sure does make me take extra precautions and be conservative and safety oriented.

It reminds me of all the signs at hotel pools saying "No Horseplay." Well, we allow none around our pool. Hard, slick surfaces, edges, water, all a recipe for injury.

Props can be dangerous even when not running. Many people have had severe cuts trying to use outdrives as steps for reboarding.
 
I view this as an extreme tragedy. I'm sure he didn't intend any harm. There was negligence on the operators part.



I have a problem with alcohol. I have been sober since May 2006. I have been lucky to not fall off the wagon. The urge to drink to this day is very strong, especially when stress levels are high. Staying dry has meant leaving my friends and family behind. I've removed everything from my life that influenced my drinking including certain restaurants and retail establishments. There will be no alcohol on my boat or intoxicated persons.
 
Concerning alcohol levels...


When I was in college I participated in a controlled exercise/experiment, concerning blood alcohol levels. It was intended to demonstrate to everyone how alcohol affects a person.


I was part of the group that was given alcohol to drink. We'd have a drink or two. Wait a bit. Have our BAC checked. And then record our impressions of how we felt.


Meanwhile, others who were not drinking would observe us and also record impressions about our behavior.


By the time my BAC was at .02 I was definitely feeling a bit of a buzz. At .05 I was feeling drunk, and would not have been willing to drive. When it got to .08 I was almost falling-down drunk. Now, mind you, at anything less than that, I would be legal to drive! I could hardly believe that the law would allow me to drive when I was that drunk!


Yes, we were a bunch of college kids, so we didn't have years and years of experience at drinking behind us. But the fact is that -- at that time in my life -- I was going out and drinking enough to feel tipsy at the absolute minimum of once a week, and usually more like two or three times. So this was hardly my first experience at drinking too much.


When I hear about people who have BAC in the .20 and up range, I just shake my head in wonder about how hard you have to work to get THAT drunk! I mean, you have to be drunk enough to KNOW that you are drunk, and still keep right on drinking and drinking.
 
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