Tragedy in Ft Myers

[Benthic2]

Hindsight is 20/20. Its easy to say he should have called for a tow or waited for high tide since those are better options than something that results in a death. But I would be willing to bet that almost everyone here would at least try to get un-stuck before they called for a tow or decided to wait.

 

[Northern Spy]

Wow!

I'll put on my judgey-pants.

I'm guessing none of you read the attached police report in the news article...

Spring break, March 9th, in front of the party hotel. Another couple and five guys in their early twenties on board. Who literally walked to the beach. Pictures of a boat with drinks and Corona bottles all over it. Got there at 12:30. "Guesses" he had 5 beers. Incident (not an accident) at 18:30.

Failed a field sobriety test four hours after the incident. Refuses a blood test until they get a search warrant. Get a search warrant. He registered .036 six hours after the incident. Most people metabolize at .016/hr. So theoretically, he was around .132 at the time of the incident.

Yes. He was rightfully charged with a class 2 felony homicide.

Edit. He is considered for a charge of:

782.072 Vessel homicide.—“Vessel homicide” is the killing of a human being by the operation of a vessel as defined in s. 327.02 by another in a reckless manner likely to cause the death of, or great bodily harm to, another. Vessel homicide is:
(1) A felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

There wasn't a lot of decision making going on that day. If there was, they were bad ones.

 

[BandB]

Event=Accident. Cause=Negligence.

Now, as to the legality, I do think a criminal act was committed, even though I don't want to see us pay to keep him in a prison. In Florida, the crime is typically "Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence (Involuntary Manslaughter)".

The crime of manslaughter in Florida is Second Degree Felony in Florida and punishable by up to fifteen (15) years in prison, fifteen (15) years of probation, and a $10,000 fine.

Manslaughter is assigned a Level 7 offense severity ranking under Florida’s Criminal Punishment Code. Absent grounds for a downward departure sentence, a judge is required to sentence a person convicted of Manslaughter to a minimum sentence of 9¼ years in prison, but may also sentence the person up to the statutory maximum of fifteen (15) years in prison.

Note that this situation would have grounds for a downward departure and most judges would reduce the sentence.

 

[Northern Spy]

Forgot to put in my earlier rant, that the guy is a retired cop, she was an RN. Very similar family to my own.

Presumably good respectable people.

But man. Bad decisions. Ruined his family.

I am both saddened and empathic for them; while remaining angry and judgemental.

In other words, flawed and human, just like them.

Best we can do is learn from other's mistakes, I guess.

I'm not a big fan of incarceration for situations like this.

 

[dhays]

Failed a field sobriety test four hours after the incident. Refuses a blood test until they get a search warrant. Get a search warrant. He registered .036 six hours after the incident. Most people metabolize at .016/hr. So theoretically, he was around .132 at the time of the incident.

Thanks Mike. I had not seen the police report, just the initial news item. That confirms my initial guesses about what his intoxication level may have been at the time of the death.

 

[Donsan]

For whatever reason, I was previously unable to view the police report except for the first two pages with my PC. Suspect that was due to an ad blocker. I am able to read it now with my iPad. It doesn’t read good for the boater but several statements from witnesses could cause reasonable doubt and I don’t think the case is going anywhere but time will tell.

 

[Seaquest7]

Wow, Judge, Jury, and Executioner!

While a tragedy, the owner / operator of a boat needs to be responsible the SAFE operation of the vessel, safety of those onboard and other vessels and people in the water that the vessel may come in contact with.

I think he should be tried and convicted of maybe involuntary manslaughter; made to pay all associated costs with the incident; given probation and substantial community service.

Punishment isn't only for the guilty, but also serves as a deterrent to others.

Ted

Seems to be a common thread in many of your responses.

 

[Seaquest7]

Seems to be a common thread in many of your responses.

 

[psneeld]

And which common thread is that?

 

[boathealer]

Seems to be a common thread in many of your responses.

What, that people should be held accountable for their actions?

I might have only added a preface of "If found at fault......"

 

[BandB]

Seems to be a common thread in many of your responses.

Wifey B: Definitely seems to be a common thread in your last two responses since word for word they're the same.

 

[NCheaven]

Many constructive ideas by TF members for all of us to consider. I wrote an “Orientation” for visitors during the first winter after buying my trawler. Noted were thins like “boat bites”, “one hand for the boat....”, etc. There is also a requirement for a posted lookout. The reference to alcohol requires that no alcohol is to be consumed until the boat is anchored, moored or docked for the night, noting that waves, wakes and wind provide enough risk on board. Now the challenge is for me to enforce this policy consistently.

 

[BandB]

Many constructive ideas by TF members for all of us to consider. I wrote an “Orientation” for visitors during the first winter after buying my trawler. Noted were thins like “boat bites”, “one hand for the boat....”, etc. There is also a requirement for a posted lookout. The reference to alcohol requires that no alcohol is to be consumed until the boat is anchored, moored or docked for the night, noting that waves, wakes and wind provide enough risk on board. Now the challenge is for me to enforce this policy consistently.

Wifey B: We have an orientation for all new guests. We have laminated cards, and they must read them. Boat rules are rigid and non-negotiable. The most important is the captain is in charge and you do what they say. My six year old niece, my wonderful, beautiful, brilliant, perfect six year old niece, Aurora, can pretty much recite all the rules from memory. She and another six year old are our only young boaters, both starting at three and they wouldn't dare approach the boat without a PFD on. They put them on in the house before breakfast if we're going boating. Alcohol has never been an issue. Anyone I'd hesitate enforcing rules with, I'd never invite. I don't think of it as enforcing, it's protecting. It's like the flight attendant making you fasten your seat belt (although they do a lousy job of enforcing their drinking and intoxication rules).

Charters are the ones who have it tough. Someone is paying you $50k for the week and you're hoping for big tips and you have to warn them you'll call the charter off in the middle if they don't conform. Glad that's not my job.

 

[ABfish]

A tragedy, no doubt. I'm in the camp that says nothing good will come of imprisoning the husband. He will no doubt suffer the rest of his life. I recognize that the wife's family may feel differently.

A couple of months ago, we were anchored out. Friends in a smaller boat joined us. We drank for most of the day. I'm certain that all of the parents, who are 50+, and all of the young adults were at least legally drunk.

We ended the day by jumping off of the flybridge of my boat. It was hot, the water felt good, and we had plenty of depth. Everyone participated, except my wife. I slipped while climbing over the railing, and caught myself with one arm. No injury, though my shoulder hurt for a couple of days.

Since then, and since reading this story, I've tried to imagine what would have happened had I not caught myself. I could have easily struck my head on the cockpit coaming on the way down. The outcome would not have been good.

No more jumping off the flybridge, regardless of age or sobriety. Sign me as 56 and still maturing.

 

[O C Diver]

I don't think I've read a comment that suggested imprisoning him was a good idea. I think prosecuting him is a good idea.

One final thought for those apposed to a trial:
If you don't prosecute him, and god forbid, it happens again, or a similar accident showing intoxication and poor judgment, the evidence of previous bad behavior will bare little weight since it wasn't prosecuted.

Ted

 

[rgano]

I am for letting the legal process work itself out because nothing I think or say will make the least bit of difference. The voters had their say when they cast their votes for the sheriff and DA down there (at least we elect ours here in Bay County, FL).

 

[SoWhat]

Event=Accident. Cause=Negligence.

Reckless and negligent.
I was texting and hit another car. A family of 5 died. It was an accident.
I left the baby in the car. The baby died. It was an accident.
I was hunting and shot a jogger. I thought she was a deer. It was an accident.

If you want to recklessly bungee off the statue of liberty, go for it.
If you want to recklessly drive 120mph down my street and hit a child in a crosswalk, don't expect to walk because you call it an accident.

 

[BandB]

Reckless and negligent.
I was texting and hit another car. A family of 5 died. It was an accident.
I left the baby in the car. The baby died. It was an accident.
I was hunting and shot a jogger. I thought she was a deer. It was an accident.

If you want to recklessly bungee off the statue of liberty, go for it.
If you want to recklessly drive 120mph down my street and hit a child in a crosswalk, don't expect to walk because you call it an accident.

Accident can be reckless. Still an accident unless done intentionally. Still punishable as reckless.

 

[ksanders]

Sometimes I really love the “better than thou” judgementalness of TF, and sometimes I do not.

Sadly this is one of those times.

Lets look at this just a bit.

The husband lost his wife to a tragic accident. Yes she was drunk, yes the whole bunch of them might have been drunk.

The guy driving the boat was not drunk when tested.

Those are the facts.

Was he negligent in even letting people near the transom of that boat while the props were turning, yes of course he was.

Were the people helping to push the boat negligent in being back by the props, yes of course they were.

Guys it’s pretty common knowledge that spinning boat props are dangerous. They were all negligent, everyone that participated was negligent.

Were any of them criminally negligent? My money says no. No jury is going to convict him.

A civil court might have awarded damages, but it was his wife who died, and him probably being her entire “estate” would not sue himself.

There might be a whole lot of tee totalers here on TF, but people drink guys. All those liquor stores are not just selling to hard core alcoholics.

This was simply a preventable accident that nobody envisioned when they set out that day to have some fun on the boat. The lesson to be reinforced here is to stay away from spinning props, not a lesson on morals.

 

[Northern Spy]

"The guy driving the boat was not drunk when tested."

He was tested 6 hours after the incident. After he failed a Seated Battery of Standardized Field Sobriety Test. After he refused to give blood. After the police got a search warrant to take his blood.

Look, I drink, and occasionally I get drunk. On the boat, I don't drink, and if anyone else does it's in moderation.

I don't go out at noon, anchor my boat, drink five beers (his admission) and then expect that I'm okay to operate it at when I pull the anchor to make it home before sunset at 17:55.

That's just irresponsible.

And if I did I same thing as this poor guy, I'm sure I would come to the same conclusion; and wouldn't expect sympathy or empathy from anyone or the court.

 

[O C Diver]

Sometimes I really love the “better than thou” judgementalness of TF, and sometimes I do not.

Sadly this is one of those times.

Lets look at this just a bit.

The husband lost his wife to a tragic accident. Yes she was drunk, yes the whole bunch of them might have been drunk.

The guy driving the boat was not drunk when tested.

Those are the facts.

Was he negligent in even letting people near the transom of that boat while the props were turning, yes of course he was.

Were the people helping to push the boat negligent in being back by the props, yes of course they were.

Guys it’s pretty common knowledge that spinning boat props are dangerous. They were all negligent, everyone that participated was negligent.

Were any of them criminally negligent? My money says no. No jury is going to convict him.

A civil court might have awarded damages, but it was his wife who died, and him probably being her entire “estate” would not sue himself.

There might be a whole lot of tee totalers here on TF, but people drink guys. All those liquor stores are not just selling to hard core alcoholics.

This was simply a preventable accident that nobody envisioned when they set out that day to have some fun on the boat. The lesson to be reinforced here is to stay away from spinning props, not a lesson on morals.

Kevin, the facts are he knew better. The facts are he knew he shouldn't be drink and driving the boat. The facts are that he made a willful, conscious, and premeditated decision to break the law (drink and drive). And finally he said, "F*ck it, the rules don't apply to me".

Please explain to me how any of the above was accidental. You may not want to charge him with negligent homicide, but please explain to me why you think he should get a pass on all the other laws he intentionally broke.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Sorry, but I think that you have to be responsible for your actions or inactions. He was either drunk or stupid or both at the same time. He should be prosecuted. If not then what about the next guy? Just because he lost his wife should not let him off the hook.

 

[ksanders]

Kevin, the facts are he knew better. The facts are he knew he shouldn't be drink and driving the boat. The facts are that he made a willful, conscious, and premeditated decision to break the law (drink and drive). And finally he said, "F*ck it, the rules don't apply to me".

Please explain to me how any of the above was accidental. You may not want to charge him with negligent homicide, but please explain to me why you think he should get a pass on all the other laws he intentionally broke.

Ted

First off I do not drink and operate my big boat, but I have been known to have a couple of beers and ride one of my seadoos. just to clear that up.

OK, based on the available evidence lets try to get a DUI conviction.

Did you know that a 200 pound person can drink a standard 3.2% beer every hour and not exceed .01% BAC? Five beers five hours, and guess what you are not drunk.

So, he may not have intentionally broken ANY laws.

He might have also had couple of drinks after the accident happened. We do not know. Again, we do not know.

Now, lets take the actual thing that happened and dissect that.

YES he was wrong to allow anybody near the back of the boat while the props were turning, but the question comes up, did he allow people to be at the rear of the boat, right next to the spinning props?

Did he instruct people to stand off to the side, and possibly rock the boat side to side from the side?

Was this happening and his intoxicated wife decided to go to the transom and push, and then slipped and got killed?

All I’m saying is that you guys have convicted this guy when the facts thatcome out in court might tell a bit of a different story.

 

[Comodave]

No, Kevin, I have not convinced him of anything. I said he needs to be prosecuted. Then if a jury convicts him he is guilty. I said you need to be responsible for your actions. I believe there is enough evidence from what we know that a grand jury would indict him. Then let the chips fall where they may.

 

[dhays]

OK, based on the available evidence lets try to get a DUI conviction.



Did you know that a 200 pound person can drink a standard 3.2% beer every hour and not exceed .01% BAC? Five beers five hours, and guess what you are not drunk.

Maybe that is why WA state laws prohibit someone to operate a boat while they are drinking. The typical beer that folks drink around here (where everyone is in love with IPAs) is between 6-7% alcohol. Before long the state will make drinking the rice based swill that other parts of the country consider “beer” on offense in itself.

Your speculation is fine and is something that a defense attorney should do. At the same time, it is up to the DA to determine if they feel a case can/should be made based on the evidence. We don’t have that information so again, the question is should someone who is intoxicated face criminal charges when their actions lead to the death of someone.

 

[ksanders]

Also...

Reading the police report.

The victims son was at the rear of the boat with a friend, and they were the ones that made a determining decision that the props were “clear”

The son stated that he had no clue how his mom got near the props.

so based on this, who’s fault is it?

The guy at the throttle?
The guy at the back of the boat that determined all was clear?

Seriously, that one thing adds a bunch of reasonable doubt in my mind.

You are at the throttles of a 36’ boat.
your son says all is clear, go for it.

 

[O C Diver]

First off I do not drink and operate my big boat, but I have been known to have a couple of beers and ride one of my seadoos. just to clear that up.

OK, based on the available evidence lets try to get a DUI conviction.

Did you know that a 200 pound person can drink a standard 3.2% beer every hour and not exceed .01% BAC? Five beers five hours, and guess what you are not drunk.

So, he may not have intentionally broken ANY laws.

He might have also had couple of drinks after the accident happened. We do not know. Again, we do not know.

Now, lets take the actual thing that happened and dissect that.

YES he was wrong to allow anybody near the back of the boat while the props were turning, but the question comes up, did he allow people to be at the rear of the boat, right next to the spinning props?

Did he instruct people to stand off to the side, and possibly rock the boat side to side from the side?

Was this happening and his intoxicated wife decided to go to the transom and push, and then slipped and got killed?

All I’m saying is that you guys have convicted this guy when the facts thatcome out in court might tell a bit of a different story.

Kevin, charge him with involuntary manslaughter. Let him plead it down to DWI and reckless endangerment.

If he's going to say no deal, then let him spend a boat load of money on lawyers.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

When you are the skipper of a boat, you are responsible period. You may take advice from someone else, but you are ultimately responsible. When we were in the CG Auxiliary and on patrol as coxswain I was responsible for everything. I would have crew giving me reports and recommendations but I still had to access and evaluate the reports and make the final decision. When something would go wrong the CG would go to the coxswain for responsibility. The owner/operator of the boat in question may have listened to someone that said it was safe to operate the boat like that, but it did not relieve the operator from the responsibility. Bottom line the operator is the one, not others that is responsible. And we know that the operator had been drinking, apparently quite a bit. And the drinking had to play a part of his decision making process, how much, we don’t know but some part.

 

[psneeld]

Maybe that is why WA state laws prohibit someone to operate a boat while they are drinking. The typical beer that folks drink around here (where everyone is in love with IPAs) is between 6-7% alcohol. Before long the state will make drinking the rice based swill that other parts of the country consider “beer” on offense in itself.

Your speculation is fine and is something that a defense attorney should do. At the same time, it is up to the DA to determine if they feel a case can/should be made based on the evidence. We don’t have that information so again, the question is should someone who is intoxicated face criminal charges when their actions lead to the death of someone.

Just curious Dave, is drinking and driving a boat or vehicle a certain offense or like many places it is really an "open container" law???



Yes there is BUI and DUI in most places, but some as far as I know you can drink and drive if you are not in a own container jurisdiction.

 

[dhays]

Just curious Dave, is drinking and driving a boat or vehicle a certain offense or like many places it is really an "open container" law???



Yes there is BUI and DUI in most places, but some as far as I know you can drink and drive if you are not in a own container jurisdiction.

WA state DUI laws prohibit any open container in a vehicle in addition to a BAC legal limit of .08%.

BUI laws are a bit different. There is no open container prohibition only that the operator of the boat can’t be drinking while operating the boat. Not exactly sure what that all means specifically and it may much more difficult than an open container law to enforce. Again, any BAC of .08% or more is illegal.