Tragedy in Ft Myers

[Woodland Hills]

Interesting observations. I have suffered from IBS(irritable bowel syndrome) for over 15 years, I can control the flare ups with an extremely expensive antibiotic every 9 months or so, but the last time I was stricken I tried eliminating alcohol. I stopped the 4 beers I would drink every night between 5:00 and 10:00 pm and the symptoms disappeared in 48 hours! That was nearly 2 months ago and I have never felt better, no mornings spent sick as a dog and no craving for alcohol at all. I guess I had a stomach/gut problem and not a drinking problem.....

Apparently drinking 4 or 5 beers a night for 50 years isn’t that good for you. Who knew? Anyway, as long as the memory of being so sick is still so fresh in my mind I have zero desire to go back there again. Thank God I never developed an addiction......

 

[Gdavid]

Did everyone see at the picture at the end of the article? The boat is shooting rooster tails of water from each of the three engines and people are in the water at the corner of the transom. That picture made my stomach turn.

 

[wkearney99]

A lot of judgement here of the gentleman driving the boat with respect to controlling his wife’s drinking to excess. You make it sound like he actually had a choice whether she drank to excess or not. Clearly you’ve never been married to someone that drinks to excess.

Did everyone see at the picture at the end of the article? The boat is shooting rooster tails of water from each of the three engines and people are in the water at the corner of the transom. That picture made my stomach turn.

These two quotes make the right points.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. We can't hope to be privy to enough of the details to make anything approaching a factual determination. Lots of assumptions possible, no doubt.

But let's get down off the high-horses for a moment to recognize the horror of that situation. I mean, ugh, falling on props, the memory of that happening ain't ever going to go away for the survivors. To say nothing of that poor woman screwing up like that.

It was an entirely preventable tragedy, starting from not running the boat aground. And then from not calling for towing assistance. To say nothing of not guaranteeing anyone/everyone was in-sight and accounted for before engaging in any kind of engine activity.

Sadly life almost seems to require tragedies like this to get people to wake up to their responsibilities. Let's hope folks that hear of this put at least a little more care into operating their boats than these folks did.

 

[BandB]

When I hear about people who have BAC in the .20 and up range, I just shake my head in wonder about how hard you have to work to get THAT drunk! I mean, you have to be drunk enough to KNOW that you are drunk, and still keep right on drinking and drinking.

I think an area often overlooked then is how long it takes to metabolize those levels of alcohol. If someone is at a .20 level, it will take the average body then 13 hours to metabolize that. People have often thought eight hours was plenty to rid their body and it is if they only reached .12.

Interesting that the FAA's limit is .04 for flying and their requirement of time to wait ("Bottle to Throttle") is 8 hours. I don't feel either rule is adequate for plane or boat and most other countries don't. The US does about 12,000 random checks a year and about 10 pilots a year fail. India has a 0.00 requirement and tests before every flight so around 2 million tests a year with around 50 failing. Extremely small rate but sure wouldn't want to be flying with one of the failing pilots. Amazes me how many still think they'll get by with it and why they don't have their own breathalyzer to test themselves first. Of course that's not even considering the impact of hangovers.

 

[Group9]

These two quotes make the right points.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. We can't hope to be privy to enough of the details to make anything approaching a factual determination. Lots of assumptions possible, no doubt.

But let's get down off the high-horses for a moment to recognize the horror of that situation. I mean, ugh, falling on props, the memory of that happening ain't ever going to go away for the survivors. To say nothing of that poor woman screwing up like that.

It was an entirely preventable tragedy, starting from not running the boat aground. And then from not calling for towing assistance. To say nothing of not guaranteeing anyone/everyone was in-sight and accounted for before engaging in any kind of engine activity.

Sadly life almost seems to require tragedies like this to get people to wake up to their responsibilities. Let's hope folks that hear of this put at least a little more care into operating their boats than these folks did.

And, you’re right, it’s rarely one lone error that gets you. It’s that chain of errors, that you don’t break before tragedy results.

 

[motion30]

The truly sad part of this tragedy is it was easily 100% preventable. I'm sure looking back the captain realizes being stuck on The Sandbar wasn't the worst thing in the world

 

[BandB]

The truly sad part of this tragedy is it was easily 100% preventable. I'm sure looking back the captain realizes being stuck on The Sandbar wasn't the worst thing in the world

Panic leads to disaster. First step should be to pause just long enough to be sure you fully understand the situation. I'm not talking delay as that may take only seconds or could take longer. Much depends on experience. In this case there was no immediate danger so that pause could be as long as needed. That pause would tell you that you're on a nice soft sandbar, not up against rocks.

Panic, alcohol, lack of sleep, drugs, lead to poor judgment and poor decisions.

All accidents are 100% preventable, but that's not the real evaluation criteria. It's what reasonably could have and should have been done. It's what was in the control of the persons there. It's whether their actions made their situation better or worse. Some take a lot of analysis to know what could have and should have been done. This one doesn't.

 

[Group9]

The truly sad part of this tragedy is it was easily 100% preventable. I'm sure looking back the captain realizes being stuck on The Sandbar wasn't the worst thing in the world

Exactly. With the right attitude, it could have been fun. A good lesson in just taking what life hands you with a smile and accepting it. So what if they had to wait on the tide to get out? Was one of them necessary to save the world somewhere else right away? I doubt it.

 

[Seevee]

Interesting comments about this event.



Even though the capt test .03 ~, the test was administered 5 hours later, so he may or may not have been impaired.


And just because one test for whatever doesn't mean they are impaired. The .08 is just was the law says, but doesn't mean you're impaired if over that limit.... just means you'll probably go to jail. And some folks are impaired with .01 test. And the breathalizer test is notoriously inaccurate. I don't blame the guy for refusing it.



As for not letting folks drink on you boat, I could argue a pretty good idea. I once had a drunk on the boat and actually threw them off in shallow water, made them swim to shore and when I saw they were safely on shore, I left. Mean? you bet, they were not controllable and a hazard.



Another thing, I could argue against letting anyone you don't know on your boat. Or at least a reasonable reason that they will behave. The trawlers crawls are a pretty safe bet and I had no issue of participating. They didn't stay long and my only worry was some were physically very limited, so I watch them carefully.


I don't do charity runs in my boat, plane or car. I just donate to charily... much safer.


As for the airlines that was mentioned.... I'm not of sure there's a problem. The number of pilots that abuse the system is extremely small, almost zero for drugs. A solution for a non problem. How many airliners have crashed because of alcohol? Any? And, FWIW, there was a study that proved that pilots flew better with two drinks. Obviously the study was never published.



As for the captain of this boat, the punishment of killing is wife is probably enough, but a few years in jail wouldn't hurt.

 

[Shrew]

Hmmm

A lot of judgement here of the gentleman driving the boat with respect to controlling his wife’s drinking to excess.

You make it sound like he actually had a choice wether she drank to excess or not.

Clearly you’ve never been married to someone that drinks to excess.

Here’s the way it really works guys...

You give up trying to control your spouses drinking. You end up at a point where you have a choice. You either do everything alone, or you put up with their excesses. Oh sure at first you try to correct their behavior, and if they have other behaviors that make them intolerable you do not stay married.

But if they simply drink to excess, and you are not able to stop them you really do not get a choice if you want to continue the marriage.

His failure was not letting his wife get drunk.

His failure was letting anyone get anywhere near a spinning prop, within range that if they slipped or stumbled they could come in contact with it.

That, my friends is his failure.

I have to agree. A lot of folks swinging for the fences of judgement also admitting they don't 'allow' drinking on a boat. So my guess is, they also aren't familiar with how a drunken spouse both doesn't listen to or follow instructions, and how they can be 'spontaneous'.

I wouldn't be surprised if he only offloaded the boat to float her off the bar, and asked his wife to stand aside until the boat was free. But then again, all she saw was her stuck boat and struggling husband and decided they needed just a little more help.

Yep, speculation can swing wildly both ways.

 

[ben2go]

Interesting observations. I have suffered from IBS(irritable bowel syndrome) for over 15 years, I can control the flare ups with an extremely expensive antibiotic every 9 months or so, but the last time I was stricken I tried eliminating alcohol. I stopped the 4 beers I would drink every night between 5:00 and 10:00 pm and the symptoms disappeared in 48 hours! That was nearly 2 months ago and I have never felt better, no mornings spent sick as a dog and no craving for alcohol at all. I guess I had a stomach/gut problem and not a drinking problem.....

Apparently drinking 4 or 5 beers a night for 50 years isn’t that good for you. Who knew? Anyway, as long as the memory of being so sick is still so fresh in my mind I have zero desire to go back there again. Thank God I never developed an addiction......

My IBS got better as well. Unfortunately, it killed the ilium in my small intestines and caused me to have bile acid malabsorption and precancerous lesions in my colon. After surgery, I was better but I still have problems with an upset stomach regularly due to too much acid build up in my system. I take colestipol to help control the build-up of acid in my system.

 

[BandB]

I have to agree. A lot of folks swinging for the fences of judgement also admitting they don't 'allow' drinking on a boat. So my guess is, they also aren't familiar with how a drunken spouse both doesn't listen to or follow instructions, and how they can be 'spontaneous'.

I wouldn't be surprised if he only offloaded the boat to float her off the bar, and asked his wife to stand aside until the boat was free. But then again, all she saw was her stuck boat and struggling husband and decided they needed just a little more help.

Yep, speculation can swing wildly both ways.

Wifey B: Well, while we don't allow drinking on the boat when underway and very seldom at any time, rest assured both hubby and I are very familiar with drunken persons and their behavior having grown up in homes with alcoholics. His father was better controlled than mine as he was a white collar alcoholic. Mine was as erratic and unpredictable as imaginable, a sloppy, uncontrollable drunk. Mine also more than once walked out in front of cars or behind those backing out of their drives. His father didn't drive a car while drinking but did fish and operate a boat. Mine drove a car regardless of how drunk he was. My mom tried to stop him once I'm aware of and he beat the h... out of her. Oh, and I called the police a couple of times he beat her. He denied it, she denied it. That was before today's domestic violence laws. My only successful stand before running away was I refused to ride with him drunk. I generally got rides from others or walked if close, but once walked five miles to a school function to avoid riding with him.

 

[Seevee]

Wifey B: Well, while we don't allow drinking on the boat when underway and very seldom at any time, rest assured both hubby and I are very familiar with drunken persons and their behavior having grown up in homes with alcoholics. His father was better controlled than mine as he was a white collar alcoholic. Mine was as erratic and unpredictable as imaginable, a sloppy, uncontrollable drunk. Mine also more than once walked out in front of cars or behind those backing out of their drives. His father didn't drive a car while drinking but did fish and operate a boat. Mine drove a car regardless of how drunk he was. My mom tried to stop him once I'm aware of and he beat the h... out of her. Oh, and I called the police a couple of times he beat her. He denied it, she denied it. That was before today's domestic violence laws. My only successful stand before running away was I refused to ride with him drunk. I generally got rides from others or walked if close, but once walked five miles to a school function to avoid riding with him.

Wow, Wifey B, I'm sooooo sorry you had to go thru that. Couldn't imagine. I've never grown up with alcoholics, but spent close to 30 years to help a relative with it, and realized how difficult it is. I spend years looking for a good solution and after programs of all sorts and counseling, nothing worked. They solved their own issue, which worked. Go figure. Wasn't the best, but one heck of a lot better than it used to be.



Again, sorry you had to experience that as a kid growing up. Fathers are suppose to be the best thing in the world for their little girls.

 

[O C Diver]

I have to agree. A lot of folks swinging for the fences of judgement also admitting they don't 'allow' drinking on a boat. So my guess is, they also aren't familiar with how a drunken spouse both doesn't listen to or follow instructions, and how they can be 'spontaneous'.

I wouldn't be surprised if he only offloaded the boat to float her off the bar, and asked his wife to stand aside until the boat was free. But then again, all she saw was her stuck boat and struggling husband and decided they needed just a little more help.

Yep, speculation can swing wildly both ways.

Sadly, you miss the obvious in you quest to criticize others. The husband alone had 100% control on whether to run the engines. Only the village idiots try to power their way off a sandbar.

Ted

 

[Shrew]

No criticism of others here. Just pointing out how there is always 3 sides to the story.

 

[wkearney99]

Sadly, you miss the obvious in you quest to criticize others.

Those shoes seem to fit all sorts of people here...

 

[angus99]

Deleted

 

[DaveS]

He is the captain and was in charge of the vessel. Further, this was not a drunk "driving" accident (although we can quibble about semantics). He apparently lifted the spinning props out of the water while his drunk guests (and wife) stood behind the boat to try to dislodge it from a sand-bar (upon which he apparently ran the boat). While alcohol may (or may not) have influenced his decision, he was negligent in either case and will probably be charged with negligent homicide or a similar crime. In a civil suit there would be and argument for contributory negligence against the wife. That is not an issue in a criminal court. Sad story.

 

[jimisbell]

If the boat is moving it does not happen.
If the boat is at a dock they get off the boat.

AMEN. No booze is consumed on my boat if away from the dock.



A boat at sea is dangerous enough for sober people.



Some will say, that as long as the capt stays sober and the others reasonably so, its safe. BUT what if the captain needs help and has to chose from a bunch of drunks? How easy is it for drunks to PROPERLY don their life vests? The list can go on.

 

[Donsan]

He is the captain and was in charge of the vessel. Further, this was not a drunk "driving" accident (although we can quibble about semantics). He apparently lifted the spinning props out of the water while his drunk guests (and wife) stood behind the boat to try to dislodge it from a sand-bar (upon which he apparently ran the boat). While alcohol may (or may not) have influenced his decision, he was negligent in either case and will probably be charged with negligent homicide or a similar crime. In a civil suit there would be and argument for contributory negligence against the wife. That is not an issue in a criminal court. Sad story.

IF the prosecutor can find any reliable witnesses who were not under the influence at the time. Really, is it good public policy to incarcerate folks at a cost to taxpayers of $100,000 per year plus prosecution costs for accidents?

 

[BandB]

IF the prosecutor can find any reliable witnesses who were not under the influence at the time. Really, is it good public policy to incarcerate folks at a cost to taxpayers of $100,000 per year plus prosecution costs for accidents?

Wifey B: And I quote myself,

"I wouldn't put him in prison for murder for decades. I'd suspend and ban him from operating boats. We don't gain by spending money on him in prison and other family members may need him, but he'd not be allowed to operate a boat ever again and a car for some period of time."

Now, if he then operated without a license, immediate revocation of his suspended sentence and to jail.

Many of those in prison make no sense, starting with all those arrested for simple drug possession and including those in jail for failure to pay fines.

Fortunately your $100,000 is far above the real cost. Average in 2017 was just over $36,000, but still. I noticed it's right at $100/day. Could we just go Motel 6 and Fast Food instead?

NY costs $69,000 a year and Alabama $15,000. Maybe we should send the New Yorkers to Alabama? (Ok, I really don't mean this as nothing against Alabama but too good to pass it up....so here it come.....That would be double punishment).

There's worse though, NY City Jails, $168,000 a year. I've got an idea. Like the retired lady who decided cruise ships were cheaper and more fun than retirement homes, maybe we put them all on cruise ships.

California had 133,000 prisoners for $8,596,902,049. I've never been great with the comma thing on numbers but that's $8 billion if I'm correct.

Omg we have 2.3 million incarcerated and some wild numbers. 540000 who haven't been convicted but can't afford bail, which the median bail is 10000 for felonies. Trying to think this through. Let's see, you have a warrant for not paying your traffic fines on your $130 ticket. Ok, bail is $5000. Oh you can't pay that? I'll lock you up for six months and spend $18000. But then maybe free room and board is appreciated and better than their life outside. Whoa. 451000 drug related.

Local jails have churning. Only 600,000 a year enter prison but people go to jail 10,600,000 times a year. That's how many processed in and out. Is that like 18 times the number staying? 168,000 people back to prison for technical violations of probation or parole.

22,000 young people incarcerated who haven't committed any crime.

Oh and the cost of the 2.3 million locked up....that's not all of it. Don't forget the cost of the 3.6 million on probation and the 0.9 million on parole for a total of 6.8 million "in the system".

So, even at $36k vs. your $100k, the last thing I want to do is send another non-violent person to prison.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Ms. BB. But...but...but... Prisons and jails are BIG business. You wouldn't want to deprive those judges, DA's, prison guards and everyone else associated with the business of (perceived) crime to be out of a job would you? Perish the thought that the US would adopt rehabilitation when punishment is so profitable.


https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/norway-american-prison-system-reform_n_5d5ab979e4b0eb875f270db1

 

[dhays]

IF the prosecutor can find any reliable witnesses who were not under the influence at the time. Really, is it good public policy to incarcerate folks at a cost to taxpayers of $100,000 per year plus prosecution costs for accidents?

I guess it depends on what your definition of an “accident” is. I don’t consider this an “accident” I consider it negligence.

A meteor didn’t fall out of the sky and kill that woman. Her death is (likely) a direct result of her decisions and actions as well as the others on that boat. I certainly don’t know the law, but I would imagine that the operator of the boat has a legal obligation to operate the boat in a safe and legal manner.

I know there is a sense that why should the poor man be punished more than he already is by the loss of his wife. While compassionate, I think that rationally that is flawed. The actions are either criminally negligent or they are not. Who the victim was shouldn’t matter.

 

[eheffa]

I’d say it was a dumb mistake with tragic consequences but I don’t see it as a criminal act.

How does charging him accomplish anything?

 

[Donsan]

I guess it depends on what your definition of an “accident” is. I don’t consider this an “accident” I consider it negligence.

A meteor didn’t fall out of the sky and kill that woman. Her death is (likely) a direct result of her decisions and actions as well as the others on that boat. I certainly don’t know the law, but I would imagine that the operator of the boat has a legal obligation to operate the boat in a safe and legal manner.

I know there is a sense that why should the poor man be punished more than he already is by the loss of his wife. While compassionate, I think that rationally that is flawed. The actions are either criminally negligent or they are not. Who the victim was shouldn’t matter.

Negligence is not a crime. It is a tort and is tried in civil courts. In general, a crime requires an intent to do something illegal. Did this boater intend to illegally operate his boat? Did he intend to injure or kill his wife? At best it can be argued failed to perform a duty but there is a great deal culpability on the part of the decedent wife who also had a duty to stay clear of the boat. Sorry, I can not see how any prosecutor will bring this case and expect a jury to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[clive1]

Three rules on my boats: No smoking; No drugs; No alcohol=damn few guests and no problems.

 

[O C Diver]

Negligence is not a crime. It is a tort and is tried in civil courts. In general, a crime requires an intent to do something illegal. Did this boater intend to illegally operate his boat? Did he intend to injure or kill his wife? At best it can be argued failed to perform a duty but there is a great deal culpability on the part of the decedent wife who also had a duty to stay clear of the boat. Sorry, I can not see how any prosecutor will bring this case and expect a jury to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Apparently you've not heard the phrase, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse ".
Lots of people are prosecuted for things that they didn't think were illegal or were done as a result of poor judgment.

The operator was clearly guilty of endangering his passengers. Whether he deserves to serve time in prison for it is a completely seperate issue.

Ted

 

[rgano]

If were to ever have an unfortunate incident, THIS is the one place I would be hopeful it never appeared.

 

[dhays]

If were to ever have an unfortunate incident, THIS is the one place I would be hopeful it never appeared.

I understand, but I view this more as a hypothetical question since none of us will ever know the full facts of the situation. For example, I don’t even recall the guys name and only the location because it is in the topic title.

 

[jimisbell]

Hell, I dont even remember the title of this thread. I think it was somewhere in Florida