San Diego warship chicken 11/24/22 for parsing and perusal….

[Flyjetguy]

https://youtu.be/8s18O_iAlKE

 

[Pete Meisinger]

You would really have to be interested in this incident to be able to watch the entire video. I made about five minutes.

pete

 

[Flyjetguy]

Sorry Pete…

I hadn’t heard about it anywhere despite what looks like a really close call. The video brings up lots of different issues, current set, channel depth shape and constraints, communication, traffic, pilot transfers and navigation protocol, colregs vs inland waterway, even maneuverability differences for the different prop patterns. All this in the context of two very expensive, presumably professionally crewed, United States Navy warships. I thought it was interesting.

 

[ancora]

Here in San Diego ( a Navy town) it has gone viral. To me, the Harper's Ferry was on the wrong side of the channel. As a 30 year boater in San Diego, I found it interesting that the Harper's Ferry went outside the buoy and did not run aground. That skipper has some 'splaining to do.

 

[Benthic2]

I found it very disturbing. For 2 ships in the same navy, in a friendly harbor in perfect conditions to have trouble it makes me wonder how they would perform with enemy ships/planes/submarines around, in an unfamilar harbor at night in a squall.

You can use the excuse that two huge ships met at the chokepoint of the channel, but I don't see that as an excuse, I see that as the first ( or subsequent ) link in the chain of failures. With even a modicum of foresight and a little communication they could have arranged a different passing point. Both of those captains ( captain as in responsibility, not rank ) should be demoted and publicly admonished. I would be much more forgiving for a recreational boater and somewhat less forgiving for a professional mariner, but for a person to be given responsibility for a billion dollars worth of hardware and hundreds of service men and womens safety to botch a simple passing situation is totally unforgiveable. Especially when these people are supposed to be capable of dealing with all the pressures and distractions of war time.

The only possible mitigating factor I could come up with is that if someone shore side was orchestrating this and they messed up. ( like an air traffic controller for aviation )

 

[Fletcher500]

I found it very disturbing. For 2 ships in the same navy, in a friendly harbor in perfect conditions to have trouble it makes me wonder how they would perform with enemy ships/planes/submarines around, in an unfamilar harbor at night in a squall.

You can use the excuse that two huge ships met at the chokepoint of the channel, but I don't see that as an excuse, I see that as the first ( or subsequent ) link in the chain of failures. With even a modicum of foresight and a little communication they could have arranged a different passing point. Both of those captains ( captain as in responsibility, not rank ) should be demoted and publicly admonished. I would be much more forgiving for a recreational boater and somewhat less forgiving for a professional mariner, but for a person to be given responsibility for a billion dollars worth of hardware and hundreds of service men and womens safety to botch a simple passing situation is totally unforgiveable. Especially when these people are supposed to be capable of dealing with all the pressures and distractions of war time.

The only possible mitigating factor I could come up with is that if someone shore side was orchestrating this and they messed up. ( like an air traffic controller for aviation )

This webcam gets some great shots of the harbor, and the video is worth watching.

Agree, should not have happened, a basic pass in good weather.

I am in this channel on a weekly basis and warships generally do a good job navigating it. The larger ships sometimes get escorts, and for Carriers it is a mandatory 2 to 3 escorts and they are not fooling around if boaters don't abide with their directions.

Outbound ship (Harpers Ferry) cut the corner on the inbound ship (Momsen). This is not a "choke point" in SD harbor, and is actually one of the wider sections and warships often use this particular area to pass. The narrower channel sections are south of here, including the bridge which they always avoid passing within.

Harpers Ferry (outbound ship) was apparently piloted by the regular Captain. Momsen reportedly had a pilot aboard and I believe someone said they saw the Pilot Flag flying.

Comms between the two ships per the broadcast on YT were not adequate.

There was no "shore side orchestration". There are some good comments on the YT video including Naval personnel and locals who frequent the area a lot.

Glad the webcam caught it. Things happen, and it's a good opportunity for training to prevent it from happening again.

 

[garbler]

You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think you’re seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems. Of course the acute course change of the inbound ship indicates a problem. Lack of bridge to bridge coms and the timing and location of the tug and pilot boarding in a tight spot. And the fact that the USN has ongoing problems with piloting and reasonable watch command duration

Rick

 

[Fletcher500]

You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think you’re seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems. Of course the acute course change of the inbound ship indicates a problem. Lack of bridge to bridge coms and the timing and location of the tug and pilot boarding in a tight spot. And the fact that the USN has ongoing problems with piloting and reasonable watch command duration

Rick

Negative. Outbound ship was way over the mid channel, imaginery line. Inbound ship was forced to make that turn to avoid them. As noted, this is a not a tight spot within the harbor. USN does not have a problem "with ongoing problems and piloting....". The outbound ship screwed up, but more details may eventually come to light as to why.

 

[garbler]

Fletcher I fully understand the LSD’s crowding the red side of the channel and the inboard vessel’s avoidance as I stated before. My point was telephoto lenses don’t let you know how close they were unless you something I don’t ?

And yes the USN does have problems with ship handling. I think you may want to review USN ship to ship collision history. The last two that come to mind are the USS McCain and the USS Fitzgerald. The McCain collided with a tanker in the Singapore Straights and the Fitzgerald off of Japan with a freighter as I recall. Five or more sailors were killed in the Fitzgerald incident . But fender bender incidents occur frequently and if they only involve USN ships and no deaths you won’t hear about it in the news. However both of these two collisions I’ve referenced were both Seventh Fleet and the USN CNO pulled the Seventh Fleet commander from duty. You don’t fire the commander of the USN’s largest fleet for nothing. Both of these accidents went to military trial and both OOD’s in command were found to have violated just about every navigation law possible. In a war time footing I can understand some of this but it’s hard to fathom in current conditions

I worked in Yokosuka repairing the USS Patriot/MCM 7 which ran aground off of North Korea as a result of the watch being awake for fourteen hours. While in the graving dock running repair crews an FFG was brought in with hull damage from a collision with another ship unnamed. The yard Ship Repair Unit told me they get three or four a year though rarely serious but still enough to take them off line and dock. Right now the USN is in the process rewriting the rules for hours at the helm and requiring additional ship handling and piloting experience. It seems apparent by those in the know that ship handling skills and excessive watch hours have been overlooked but will be corrected.

Rick

 

[psneeld]

I have been following Navy stuff pretty closely (and USCG stuff) for over 40 years.

Get a daily morning briefing via email of Military news.

The Navy has HUGE issues. My son got out 6 years ago and he echoes every one I have read from toxic leadership leading to unacceptable suicide rates, to collisions and near misses routinely, commanding officers being relieved for cause just about weekly, commissioning ships that never seem to work (defense contractors share in that blame a lot too) or are out of date by the time they are and decommed/traded/sold/etc long before they earned their keep..... holy cow it goes on and on.

Sure it's no worse than out elected government, and really no worse than much of our countries business world too...but it's still a problem and society is getting harder to manage/control/deal with....not easier.

Wish I had an answer... but leadership needs something and it can't be distracted from the basic like shiphandling any more than it already is.

I am all for not being too hard on mistakes, when reasonable, but it seems like it isn't the usual "one time bad decision" much of the time these days.

 

[Fletcher500]

Rick, I vaguely remember the McCain and had to look up the Fitzgerald. These both occurred almost 6 years ago. With the sea time these ships experience including dodging vessels of all sizes in parts of the world where the rules are what you can get away with. I was not under the impression that their record was as bad as you make it out. Have you compared the accident rate when crew negligence was later discovered to other first world Navies with much smaller fleets?

 

[Benthic2]

..You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think you’re seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems....

I think the fact that they passed starboard to starboard, 1 ship left the channel, and the extreme course changes indicate it was not a "business as usual passing"

This is wild speculation on my part, but I suspect it is a Naval culture problem of overconfidence. "We are the mighty USN, and all shall get out of our way"

I think the previously mentioned Navy Ship vs Cargo ship collisions were probably a sleeping watch on the cargo ships, which of course in inexcusable, but it also means that the navy ship was unable to avoid a ship that was on a steady course for many miles. We know they have the technology to predict the collison a long time before it happens. I suspect they hold their course and wonder when the other guy will give way.....and its not until its too late when they start to consider their options. I know this is entirely opinion and not based in anything other than my own biases, but isn't that what the internet is all about ?

 

[Fletcher500]

Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one. But you are right, this is the Internet so let’s throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks. It’s obvious this was a major screw up by the outgoing vessel, unless it is determined that a mechanical or something else happened. Unlikely, but possible. Your second paragraph is just silliness. I am literally in this channel on a weekly basis from Nov to June every year for the past 12 years. A lot of warships enter and exit this harbor, mostly on Fridays and do just fine with navigation. That is it for me. Tapping out.

 

[psneeld]

Just one of hundreds of Navy related articles I have read discussing current issues...

"No victory at sea: How the US Navy crises impact national security strategy
The US Navy is woefully unprepared to confront twenty-first century security challenges."

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2...ures,rampant virus in the air above San Diego.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I found it interesting that the Harper's Ferry went outside the buoy and did not run aground. That skipper has some 'splaining to do.

Seems like a reasonable expedient. The Captain/Pilot would certainly be aware that there was sufficient depth to allow access to the North Island pier to his immediate left where there was a destroyer alongside.


Does seem as though better ship-to-ship communication could have moved the whole pass to a straight segment of the channel.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Just one of hundreds of Navy related articles I have read discussing current issues...

Here's another bit of good reading:


Scathing report here:


Unimpeded, the fire gathered force, surging upward, conquering one level of the 844-foot ship and then the next, while the crew — the ship’s critical firefighting force — fled to the pier. There, the captain and his sailors stood by as the Bonhomme Richard burned, in cruel irony of its motto “I have not yet begun to fight.”
...

The Navy continued its pursuit of Mays, even as a military judge recommended against it, bluntly calling out the lack of evidence and citing the findings of the Navy’s own command investigation.

...

 

[Benthic2]

Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one.... Your second paragraph is just silliness.....

I admitted it was wild speculation on my part and based solely in my imagination with a nary a fact to support my premise.

Thanks for your rebuttal. I knew I would take some heat for my comments and your response was measured, respectful and non insulting. I appreciate it.

 

[garbler]

With all due respect I think you’re glossing over the facts here. Six years ago was yesterday in USN time and firing the commander of the SEVENTH FlEET is a 12.0 on the Richter Scale. Our navy has problems and pretty much the same problems it always has when there are no wars or justification for building or rebuilding the fleet. We have a history of abandoning our ship between wars and then scrambling to rebuild our navy when the **** hits the fan. Case in point, Reagan’s 600 ship navy which was the concept of Sec. of Navy John Lehman built from 1989-2008 more or less but anyway average thirty years old and they are already being scrapped or given to our allies. Right now enlistments are down and experience lower. Those that are hanging in there to get twenty years are paying the price. Twenty years ago a guy got deployed but got home in four to six months. No longer, these guys are deployed for years and are running schedules that find them sleeping on the job. They are often asked to do jobs they were never trained for and morale is suffering. Morale BTW is just as important as horsepower or radar. The USN and the CNO knows there is a problem so let’s hope it gets resolved. Right now the answer seems to be new classes of ‘ unmanned autonomous ‘ ships that require little or no man power or human errors. Semi-manned drones

Rick

 

[catalinajack]

Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one. But you are right, this is the Internet so let’s throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks. It’s obvious this was a major screw up by the outgoing vessel, unless it is determined that a mechanical or something else happened. Unlikely, but possible. Your second paragraph is just silliness. I am literally in this channel on a weekly basis from Nov to June every year for the past 12 years. A lot of warships enter and exit this harbor, mostly on Fridays and do just fine with navigation. That is it for me. Tapping out.

I agree with you, Fletcher. Watching the video it is apparent early
on that the LSD was mid-channel and turning thus cutting off the Momsen in what should have been a relatively simple port-to-port pass. My wife/mate viewing with me had the same immediate observation. It appears to me that the Momson, once clear of Tripoli, had to go to starboard reverse to pivot the boat to stay in the channel.

 

[catalinajack]

With all due respect I think you’re glossing over the facts here. Six years ago was yesterday in USN time and firing the commander of the SEVENTH FlEET is a 12.0 on the Richter Scale. Our navy has problems and pretty much the same problems it always has when there are no wars or justification for building or rebuilding the fleet. We have a history of abandoning our ship between wars and then scrambling to rebuild our navy when the **** hits the fan. Case in point, Reagan’s 600 ship navy which was the concept of Sec. of Navy John Lehman built from 1989-2008 more or less but anyway average thirty years old and they are already being scrapped or given to our allies. Right now enlistments are down and experience lower. Those that are hanging in there to get twenty years are paying the price. Twenty years ago a guy got deployed but got home in four to six months. No longer, these guys are deployed for years and are running schedules that find them sleeping on the job. They are often asked to do jobs they were never trained for and morale is suffering. Morale BTW is just as important as horsepower or radar. The USN and the CNO knows there is a problem so let’s hope it gets resolved. Right now the answer seems to be new classes of ‘ unmanned autonomous ‘ ships that require little or no man power or human errors. Semi-manned drones



Rick

Rick, deployed for years? My son is a senior chief (CTT), eighteen years in. He just deployed on Saturday aboard the Nimitz. This will be his fourth deployment in those 18 years. This one is scheduled to last seven months. His last deployment was 11 months and that was the longest ship deployment since Viet Nam. By the way, my son does not plan on leaving the Navy at 20 years. In fact he plans on striking for a warrant and staying for 30.

 

[slowgoesit]

Rick, I vaguely remember the McCain and had to look up the Fitzgerald. These both occurred almost 6 years ago. With the sea time these ships experience including dodging vessels of all sizes in parts of the world where the rules are what you can get away with. I was not under the impression that their record was as bad as you make it out. Have you compared the accident rate when crew negligence was later discovered to other first world Navies with much smaller fleets?

Sounds like a worthwhile endeavor for the thread! Fletcher, recommend you research it as requested above, and get back to us on your findings!

 

[psneeld]

Sounds like a worthwhile endeavor for the thread! Fletcher, recommend you research it as requested above, and get back to us on your findings!

The only accident rate worth comparing is yours against zero.

Name another Navy close enough (with relatively free press) that one would even want to compare too? Not degrading other Navies, just finding a fair comparison to me isn't possible on so many levels.

I had a hard enough time sorting out the USCG aviation accident rate against the US Navy's when I had to explain it to seniors. Can't compare as missions and OPTEMPO easily.

The real kick is it still comes down to people (human factors in accidents).... which is a tough wildcard to measure the more complicated the job gets. Gone are the days when just doing your job mattered as a military leader.

 

[garbler]

Rick, deployed for years? My son is a senior chief (CTT), eighteen years in. He just deployed on Saturday aboard the Nimitz. This will be his fourth deployment in those 18 years. This one is scheduled to last seven months. His last deployment was 11 months and that was the longest ship deployment since Viet Nam. By the way, my son does not plan on leaving the Navy at 20 years. In fact he plans on striking for a warrant and staying for 30.

You are correct sir about deployment length. It was my mistake I meant to say ships deployed for one or two years and not crew.

 

[SteveK]

Simple. The AIS autopilot saw the warship on a collision course cutting across the preferred path in the outbound lane and the ferry took evasive action steering over to the inbound lane intending to pass starboard to starboard. The human suddenly disengaged the autopilot and changed course attempting to go port to port causing the ferry to oversteer and nearly run aground out of channel. Human error.

 

[ancora]

It's too bad that Rule #9 applies only to small boats and sailboats....that would have been an interesting hearing.

 

[psneeld]

It's too bad that Rule #9 applies only to small boats and sailboats....that would have been an interesting hearing.

Having a hard time if this is tongue in cheek or why rule 9 doesn't apply....

 

[garbler]

SteveK I find it hard to believe the LSD Harpers Ferry or the DDG Monsem were using the autopilot while navigating a marked channel or fairway. I’ve never seen a USN ship or commercial ship use the AP where there is a winding channel with turns and where Pilots are required. In fact after the USS McCain accident the navy banned the use of autopilots and went to manual helm controls ONLY. After so many casualties lately they want a man and team at the helm as it always was.

Rick

 

[Northern Spy]

Pretty sure the autopilot era of the US Navy was very short lived. A few years at most.

 

[psneeld]

I remember a few Navy class ships being computer touchscreen, even a newer USCG vessel had it too. Note that touch screen isn't necessarily autopilot.

https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/na...tles-after-fleet-rejects-touchscreen-controls

Navy Reverting DDGs Back to Physical Throttles, After Fleet Rejects Touchscreen Controls
By: Megan Eckstein
August 9, 2019 10:46 AM


".......SAN DIEGO – The Navy will begin reverting destroyers back to a physical throttle and traditional helm control system in the next 18 to 24 months, after the fleet overwhelmingly said they prefer mechanical controls to touchscreen systems in the aftermath of the fatal USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) collision........."

 

[SteveK]

SteveK I find it hard to believe the LSD Harpers Ferry or the DDG Monsem were using the autopilot while navigating a marked channel or fairway. I’ve never seen a USN ship or commercial ship use the AP where there is a winding channel with turns and where Pilots are required. In fact after the USS McCain accident the navy banned the use of autopilots and went to manual helm controls ONLY. After so many casualties lately they want a man and team at the helm as it always was.

Rick

WHAT! we cannot blame AI for this, it was all human error. ?

psst, that is the sarcasm emoji

The path of the warship was determined by the tug alongside. The ferry saw that it could not change course, heck they may have been in radio com. So it was agreed ferry would pass astern. Then somebody abruptly changed course on smaller ship first starboard and then port causing the bigger boat to react and oversteer, then briefly leave the channel. No harm, no foul.