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Old 12-05-2022, 09:23 AM   #1
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San Diego warship chicken 11/24/22 for parsing and perusalÖ.

https://youtu.be/8s18O_iAlKE
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Old 12-05-2022, 11:05 AM   #2
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You would really have to be interested in this incident to be able to watch the entire video. I made about five minutes.

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Old 12-05-2022, 01:14 PM   #3
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Sorry PeteÖ

I hadnít heard about it anywhere despite what looks like a really close call. The video brings up lots of different issues, current set, channel depth shape and constraints, communication, traffic, pilot transfers and navigation protocol, colregs vs inland waterway, even maneuverability differences for the different prop patterns. All this in the context of two very expensive, presumably professionally crewed, United States Navy warships. I thought it was interesting.
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Old 12-05-2022, 01:25 PM   #4
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Here in San Diego ( a Navy town) it has gone viral. To me, the Harper's Ferry was on the wrong side of the channel. As a 30 year boater in San Diego, I found it interesting that the Harper's Ferry went outside the buoy and did not run aground. That skipper has some 'splaining to do.
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Old 12-05-2022, 02:41 PM   #5
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I found it very disturbing. For 2 ships in the same navy, in a friendly harbor in perfect conditions to have trouble it makes me wonder how they would perform with enemy ships/planes/submarines around, in an unfamilar harbor at night in a squall.

You can use the excuse that two huge ships met at the chokepoint of the channel, but I don't see that as an excuse, I see that as the first ( or subsequent ) link in the chain of failures. With even a modicum of foresight and a little communication they could have arranged a different passing point. Both of those captains ( captain as in responsibility, not rank ) should be demoted and publicly admonished. I would be much more forgiving for a recreational boater and somewhat less forgiving for a professional mariner, but for a person to be given responsibility for a billion dollars worth of hardware and hundreds of service men and womens safety to botch a simple passing situation is totally unforgiveable. Especially when these people are supposed to be capable of dealing with all the pressures and distractions of war time.

The only possible mitigating factor I could come up with is that if someone shore side was orchestrating this and they messed up. ( like an air traffic controller for aviation )
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Old 12-05-2022, 03:43 PM   #6
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I found it very disturbing. For 2 ships in the same navy, in a friendly harbor in perfect conditions to have trouble it makes me wonder how they would perform with enemy ships/planes/submarines around, in an unfamilar harbor at night in a squall.

You can use the excuse that two huge ships met at the chokepoint of the channel, but I don't see that as an excuse, I see that as the first ( or subsequent ) link in the chain of failures. With even a modicum of foresight and a little communication they could have arranged a different passing point. Both of those captains ( captain as in responsibility, not rank ) should be demoted and publicly admonished. I would be much more forgiving for a recreational boater and somewhat less forgiving for a professional mariner, but for a person to be given responsibility for a billion dollars worth of hardware and hundreds of service men and womens safety to botch a simple passing situation is totally unforgiveable. Especially when these people are supposed to be capable of dealing with all the pressures and distractions of war time.

The only possible mitigating factor I could come up with is that if someone shore side was orchestrating this and they messed up. ( like an air traffic controller for aviation )
This webcam gets some great shots of the harbor, and the video is worth watching.

Agree, should not have happened, a basic pass in good weather.

I am in this channel on a weekly basis and warships generally do a good job navigating it. The larger ships sometimes get escorts, and for Carriers it is a mandatory 2 to 3 escorts and they are not fooling around if boaters don't abide with their directions.

Outbound ship (Harpers Ferry) cut the corner on the inbound ship (Momsen). This is not a "choke point" in SD harbor, and is actually one of the wider sections and warships often use this particular area to pass. The narrower channel sections are south of here, including the bridge which they always avoid passing within.

Harpers Ferry (outbound ship) was apparently piloted by the regular Captain. Momsen reportedly had a pilot aboard and I believe someone said they saw the Pilot Flag flying.

Comms between the two ships per the broadcast on YT were not adequate.

There was no "shore side orchestration". There are some good comments on the YT video including Naval personnel and locals who frequent the area a lot.

Glad the webcam caught it. Things happen, and it's a good opportunity for training to prevent it from happening again.
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Old 12-05-2022, 03:44 PM   #7
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You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think youíre seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems. Of course the acute course change of the inbound ship indicates a problem. Lack of bridge to bridge coms and the timing and location of the tug and pilot boarding in a tight spot. And the fact that the USN has ongoing problems with piloting and reasonable watch command duration

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Old 12-05-2022, 03:54 PM   #8
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You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think youíre seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems. Of course the acute course change of the inbound ship indicates a problem. Lack of bridge to bridge coms and the timing and location of the tug and pilot boarding in a tight spot. And the fact that the USN has ongoing problems with piloting and reasonable watch command duration

Rick
Negative. Outbound ship was way over the mid channel, imaginery line. Inbound ship was forced to make that turn to avoid them. As noted, this is a not a tight spot within the harbor. USN does not have a problem "with ongoing problems and piloting....". The outbound ship screwed up, but more details may eventually come to light as to why.
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Old 12-05-2022, 04:47 PM   #9
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Fletcher I fully understand the LSDís crowding the red side of the channel and the inboard vesselís avoidance as I stated before. My point was telephoto lenses donít let you know how close they were unless you something I donít ?

And yes the USN does have problems with ship handling. I think you may want to review USN ship to ship collision history. The last two that come to mind are the USS McCain and the USS Fitzgerald. The McCain collided with a tanker in the Singapore Straights and the Fitzgerald off of Japan with a freighter as I recall. Five or more sailors were killed in the Fitzgerald incident . But fender bender incidents occur frequently and if they only involve USN ships and no deaths you wonít hear about it in the news. However both of these two collisions Iíve referenced were both Seventh Fleet and the USN CNO pulled the Seventh Fleet commander from duty. You donít fire the commander of the USNís largest fleet for nothing. Both of these accidents went to military trial and both OODís in command were found to have violated just about every navigation law possible. In a war time footing I can understand some of this but itís hard to fathom in current conditions

I worked in Yokosuka repairing the USS Patriot/MCM 7 which ran aground off of North Korea as a result of the watch being awake for fourteen hours. While in the graving dock running repair crews an FFG was brought in with hull damage from a collision with another ship unnamed. The yard Ship Repair Unit told me they get three or four a year though rarely serious but still enough to take them off line and dock. Right now the USN is in the process rewriting the rules for hours at the helm and requiring additional ship handling and piloting experience. It seems apparent by those in the know that ship handling skills and excessive watch hours have been overlooked but will be corrected.

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Old 12-05-2022, 05:01 PM   #10
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I have been following Navy stuff pretty closely (and USCG stuff) for over 40 years.

Get a daily morning briefing via email of Military news.

The Navy has HUGE issues. My son got out 6 years ago and he echoes every one I have read from toxic leadership leading to unacceptable suicide rates, to collisions and near misses routinely, commanding officers being relieved for cause just about weekly, commissioning ships that never seem to work (defense contractors share in that blame a lot too) or are out of date by the time they are and decommed/traded/sold/etc long before they earned their keep..... holy cow it goes on and on.

Sure it's no worse than out elected government, and really no worse than much of our countries business world too...but it's still a problem and society is getting harder to manage/control/deal with....not easier.

Wish I had an answer... but leadership needs something and it can't be distracted from the basic like shiphandling any more than it already is.

I am all for not being too hard on mistakes, when reasonable, but it seems like it isn't the usual "one time bad decision" much of the time these days.
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Old 12-05-2022, 05:17 PM   #11
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Rick, I vaguely remember the McCain and had to look up the Fitzgerald. These both occurred almost 6 years ago. With the sea time these ships experience including dodging vessels of all sizes in parts of the world where the rules are what you can get away with. I was not under the impression that their record was as bad as you make it out. Have you compared the accident rate when crew negligence was later discovered to other first world Navies with much smaller fleets?
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Old 12-05-2022, 05:24 PM   #12
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..You have to consider that telephoto lenses, especially at the angles in the video, compress distances and play games with what you think youíre seeing. In other words these ships may not have been as close as it seems....
I think the fact that they passed starboard to starboard, 1 ship left the channel, and the extreme course changes indicate it was not a "business as usual passing"

This is wild speculation on my part, but I suspect it is a Naval culture problem of overconfidence. "We are the mighty USN, and all shall get out of our way"

I think the previously mentioned Navy Ship vs Cargo ship collisions were probably a sleeping watch on the cargo ships, which of course in inexcusable, but it also means that the navy ship was unable to avoid a ship that was on a steady course for many miles. We know they have the technology to predict the collison a long time before it happens. I suspect they hold their course and wonder when the other guy will give way.....and its not until its too late when they start to consider their options. I know this is entirely opinion and not based in anything other than my own biases, but isn't that what the internet is all about ?
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Old 12-05-2022, 05:37 PM   #13
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Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one. But you are right, this is the Internet so let’s throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks. It’s obvious this was a major screw up by the outgoing vessel, unless it is determined that a mechanical or something else happened. Unlikely, but possible. Your second paragraph is just silliness. I am literally in this channel on a weekly basis from Nov to June every year for the past 12 years. A lot of warships enter and exit this harbor, mostly on Fridays and do just fine with navigation. That is it for me. Tapping out.
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Old 12-05-2022, 05:50 PM   #14
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Just one of hundreds of Navy related articles I have read discussing current issues...

"No victory at sea: How the US Navy crises impact national security strategy
The US Navy is woefully unprepared to confront twenty-first century security challenges."

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...%20San%20Diego.
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Old 12-05-2022, 06:01 PM   #15
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I found it interesting that the Harper's Ferry went outside the buoy and did not run aground. That skipper has some 'splaining to do.

Seems like a reasonable expedient. The Captain/Pilot would certainly be aware that there was sufficient depth to allow access to the North Island pier to his immediate left where there was a destroyer alongside.


Does seem as though better ship-to-ship communication could have moved the whole pass to a straight segment of the channel.
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Old 12-05-2022, 06:09 PM   #16
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Just one of hundreds of Navy related articles I have read discussing current issues...

Here's another bit of good reading:


Scathing report here:


Unimpeded, the fire gathered force, surging upward, conquering one level of the 844-foot ship and then the next, while the crew ó the shipís critical firefighting force ó fled to the pier. There, the captain and his sailors stood by as the Bonhomme Richard burned, in cruel irony of its motto ďI have not yet begun to fight.Ē
...

The Navy continued its pursuit of Mays, even as a military judge recommended against it, bluntly calling out the lack of evidence and citing the findings of the Navyís own command investigation.

...
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Old 12-05-2022, 06:32 PM   #17
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Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one.... Your second paragraph is just silliness.....
I admitted it was wild speculation on my part and based solely in my imagination with a nary a fact to support my premise.

Thanks for your rebuttal. I knew I would take some heat for my comments and your response was measured, respectful and non insulting. I appreciate it.
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Old 12-05-2022, 06:51 PM   #18
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With all due respect I think youíre glossing over the facts here. Six years ago was yesterday in USN time and firing the commander of the SEVENTH FlEET is a 12.0 on the Richter Scale. Our navy has problems and pretty much the same problems it always has when there are no wars or justification for building or rebuilding the fleet. We have a history of abandoning our ship between wars and then scrambling to rebuild our navy when the shit hits the fan. Case in point, Reaganís 600 ship navy which was the concept of Sec. of Navy John Lehman built from 1989-2008 more or less but anyway average thirty years old and they are already being scrapped or given to our allies. Right now enlistments are down and experience lower. Those that are hanging in there to get twenty years are paying the price. Twenty years ago a guy got deployed but got home in four to six months. No longer, these guys are deployed for years and are running schedules that find them sleeping on the job. They are often asked to do jobs they were never trained for and morale is suffering. Morale BTW is just as important as horsepower or radar. The USN and the CNO knows there is a problem so letís hope it gets resolved. Right now the answer seems to be new classes of Ď unmanned autonomous Ď ships that require little or no man power or human errors. Semi-manned drones

Rick
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Old 12-05-2022, 09:22 PM   #19
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Bethnic, I think you are getting pretty far out of your lane on this one. But you are right, this is the Internet so letís throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks. Itís obvious this was a major screw up by the outgoing vessel, unless it is determined that a mechanical or something else happened. Unlikely, but possible. Your second paragraph is just silliness. I am literally in this channel on a weekly basis from Nov to June every year for the past 12 years. A lot of warships enter and exit this harbor, mostly on Fridays and do just fine with navigation. That is it for me. Tapping out.
I agree with you, Fletcher. Watching the video it is apparent early
on that the LSD was mid-channel and turning thus cutting off the Momsen in what should have been a relatively simple port-to-port pass. My wife/mate viewing with me had the same immediate observation. It appears to me that the Momson, once clear of Tripoli, had to go to starboard reverse to pivot the boat to stay in the channel.
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Old 12-05-2022, 09:30 PM   #20
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With all due respect I think youíre glossing over the facts here. Six years ago was yesterday in USN time and firing the commander of the SEVENTH FlEET is a 12.0 on the Richter Scale. Our navy has problems and pretty much the same problems it always has when there are no wars or justification for building or rebuilding the fleet. We have a history of abandoning our ship between wars and then scrambling to rebuild our navy when the shit hits the fan. Case in point, Reaganís 600 ship navy which was the concept of Sec. of Navy John Lehman built from 1989-2008 more or less but anyway average thirty years old and they are already being scrapped or given to our allies. Right now enlistments are down and experience lower. Those that are hanging in there to get twenty years are paying the price. Twenty years ago a guy got deployed but got home in four to six months. No longer, these guys are deployed for years and are running schedules that find them sleeping on the job. They are often asked to do jobs they were never trained for and morale is suffering. Morale BTW is just as important as horsepower or radar. The USN and the CNO knows there is a problem so letís hope it gets resolved. Right now the answer seems to be new classes of Ď unmanned autonomous Ď ships that require little or no man power or human errors. Semi-manned drones



Rick
Rick, deployed for years? My son is a senior chief (CTT), eighteen years in. He just deployed on Saturday aboard the Nimitz. This will be his fourth deployment in those 18 years. This one is scheduled to last seven months. His last deployment was 11 months and that was the longest ship deployment since Viet Nam. By the way, my son does not plan on leaving the Navy at 20 years. In fact he plans on striking for a warrant and staying for 30.
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