San Diego warship chicken 11/24/22 for parsing and perusal….

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
You are correct sir about deployment length. It was my mistake I meant to say ships deployed for one or two years and not crew.
I did more than a little bit of research and could find no Navy ship having been deployed for any more than 10 months since World War 2. Perhaps I missed an example or two but, in practice, your assertion that ships are being or have been deployed for as long as two years appears to be mistaken.
 
One of the investigations after the McCain incident I believe showed the OPTEMPO for the Seventh Fleet was unacceptably high.

Even though the deployments weren't necessarily extra-long, they were more frequent with shorter maintenance down times and sailing with shorthanded crews involving stretched duty times.

Thus all the studies and rewriting of all sorts of rules.
 
The ferry saw that it could not change course, heck they may have been in radio com. So it was agreed ferry would pass astern.


Please tell me that you don't think there was a ferryboat involved in this incident. :facepalm:
 
Deployment and "away from home port" are two different things. Easy to be away for most of the year.

CTs are a unique rate in the Navy and are anomalous to a "regular" rating. We used to call them "riders". Don't mean any disrespect, just not a representative rating.
 
Having a hard time if this is tongue in cheek or why rule 9 doesn't apply....:confused:
"A vessel less than 20 meters in length, or a sailing vessel, shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within the narrow channel or fairway. USCG Inland Navigation Rules, Rule 9 (b)
 
Yes I think I understand but I was referring primarily to minesweepers, MSO’s and MCM’s and some other ships that were deployed to the Persian Gulf in the late 80’s during our conflict with Iran and the Silkworm missles, lots of old contact mines and escorting Kuwait tankers. The MSO and MCM’s were deployed over there to clear mines but several of them never came home after years being stationed in Bahrain and Dubai. The USN shuffled crews back and forth, many were reservists, but the ships stayed. The USN just establish a base over there so what started as a deployment turned into a station or overseas base. I think they are still several MCM’s in Bahrain. I might not be technically navy correct but I spent time over there repairing these wooden ships and that’s what I heard

Rick
 
Deployment and "away from home port" are two different things. Easy to be away for most of the year.

CTs are a unique rate in the Navy and are anomalous to a "regular" rating. We used to call them "riders". Don't mean any disrespect, just not a representative rating.
What is a "regular rating" and how do CTs differ in their deployment requirementsfrom "real" sailors? Note: the discussion was about actual deployments. Easy to be away for most of the year? How? Where? Why? How common?
 
Last edited:
Read up on Sea Shore Flow by rating. Even the notes say that the Crypto techs are a unique community.

Some ratings are known as Sea Intensive ratings. Typically the ones that run and operate the ships equipment.

https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Community-Management/Enlisted/Sea-Shore-Flow/

Again. Everyone in the Navy knows the saying "choose your rate, pick your fate". Often said by a smarmy YN just before he's punched.

My interactions with CTs were interesting and generally positive back in the day. The conversation usually was truncated by "I can neither confirm nor deny"...
 
Last edited:
WHAT! :facepalm: we cannot blame AI for this, it was all human error. ?

psst, that is the sarcasm emoji

The path of the warship was determined by the tug alongside. The ferry saw that it could not change course, heck they may have been in radio com. So it was agreed ferry would pass astern. Then somebody abruptly changed course on smaller ship first starboard and then port causing the bigger boat to react and oversteer, then briefly leave the channel. No harm, no foul.

Unless a ship assist tug is hooked up it’s not even in the play. No more than a pilot boat coming alongside. Ships don’t change course because a small tug is nearby. If it’s a pilot drop it’s to be done normally outside the channel or sea buoy. Exceptions are possible but course changes in a fairway are either ship calls or pilot onboard.

Rick
 
I did more than a little bit of research and could find no Navy ship having been deployed for any more than 10 months since World War 2. Perhaps I missed an example or two but, in practice, your assertion that ships are being or have been deployed for as long as two years appears to be mistaken.

I’m absolutely certain you are correct but my earlier post does cite one of those rare exceptions in the Persian/Arabian Gulf. About your Son I’m no expert on USN ranks and personnel but I know Senior Chiefs are special and the navy has a hard time replacing them. These guys are the gears that make the ship move.

Rick
 
"A vessel less than 20 meters in length, or a sailing vessel, shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within the narrow channel or fairway. USCG Inland Navigation Rules, Rule 9 (b)

Rule 9 has other parts that affect all ships including the 2 big ones. Just want others to be clear on that.

Just am not exactly sure how this one part fits the discussed incident other than if one WAS a smaller vessel... then it would have been an interesting hearing.
 
Last edited:
I think Northern Spy has the big picture.

Garbler too but unfortunately said it differently than intended. When in actuality some ships have blue and gold crews and the ships keep going longer. Other times it's cross decking crews or parts of crews when new ships or "fresh out of the yards" crews are away from home for much longer periods than what might be called a deployment.

Then there are rates that are so low in numbers, they are deployed more than their shipmates. Some years the USCG had and I believe still have low numbers of cooks. Some were pulled off one deployment and had to ship right back out after a short break. I know that's not the Navy but I know it happens as it did to my son not long ago in Japan.

Thern there is training. Sometimes long training.

The bottom line is that using the word "deployment" to describe the time away from home and it's strain on many sailors is very short sighted.

The Navy (USCG too but in somewhat different ways) is suffering on many levels with no great answer and it is not new in the military. From time of war to the great social experiments forced upon the military induces new but old problems all the time. So it's not all the Navy's fault.... oversight and society in general play a huge role too.
 
Last edited:
I think Northern Spy has the big picture.

Garbler too but unfortunately said it differently than intended. When in actuality some ships have blue and gold crews and the ships keep going longer. Other times it's cross decking crews or parts of crews when new ships or "fresh out of the yards" crews are away from home for much longer periods than what might be called a deployment.

Then there are rates that are so low in numbers, they are deployed more than their shipmates. Some years the USCG had and I believe still have low numbers of cooks. Some were pulled off one deployment and had to ship right back out after a short break. I know that's not the Navy but I know it happens as it did to my son not long ago in Japan.

Thern there is training. Sometimes long training.

The bottom line is that using the word "deployment" to describe the time away from home and it's strain on many sailors is very short sighted.

The Navy (USCG too but in somewhat different ways) is suffering on many levels with no great answer and it is not new in the military. From time of war to the great social experiments forced upon the military induces new but old problems all the time. So it's not all the Navy's fault.... oversight and society in general play a huge role too.

Thank you for the clarification. My knowledge is limited to simple deployments and my son's particular experience. Obviously, there is a lot more to it. An article in defensenews.com (2/10/2022) mentioned that the Navy is short 9,000 sailors for sea duty.
 
I know there are plenty of jobs out there with "bad deals" buried in them.

Heck, my assistance tow boss (last franchise owner) ran his operation on minimal staffing at times and for years expected to work 24X7X365 15 minute recall to underway. Sure I could ask for time off, but not from Memorial Day to Labor Day and no more than a couple days off a month when asked for in advance. It worked for me as I had already started taking the winters (4 months) off to snowbird. At least I was home most every night, even though I missed a lot of family and social events.

The military and some jobs aren't so lucky. I remember when I went to Antarctica I was told part of the story and lived a chunk of it too.... the USCGC Glacier had been in the yards for almost a year, when she came out almost immediately sailed for Hawaii for 2 weeks of refresher training.

Upon return to homeport, again for just a short span, she was off to Antarctica for a 6 month deployment. Lucky for us on the return trip up the West coast of Central America, headquarters decided to add a week of law enforcement patrols off Panama and Costa Rica.

The crew at that point was tired of being gone despite great morale of the great traveling they were entitled to...but traveling on a WWII class Icebreaker isn't know for accommodations...even the weekly 10 minute telephone/ham radio patch to your sig other was in front of a pretty long line of grinning shipmates. :D

Sure crew came and went with personal needs, but many didn't and were pretty much gone for much of that time. I made about 5 months of that trip by only having to fly to Chile to catch the ship, but then was turned around and sent off on a 4 month Arctic Winter East to near the North Pole above Greenland. Almost got left there with my broken helo but that's a sea story for another happy hour. Even lost paid leave that year because of local pre and post deployment rules about taking vacation time.

Yep, lots of people can't get used to that kind of scheduling (especially my first wife)..... :rofl: Keeping an organization like the Navy running like a top is a herculean task and only possible with fantastic leadership at many levels. Very few have that kind of skill.
 
Last edited:
..... My interactions with CTs were interesting and generally positive back in the day. The conversation usually was truncated by "I can neither confirm nor deny"...
Ah yes... a phrase stolen from the weapons nukes such as myself.... :D
The CT rating badge was otherwise known as "lightning fast chicken pluckers..."
 
Unless a ship assist tug is hooked up it’s not even in the play. No more than a pilot boat coming alongside. Ships don’t change course because a small tug is nearby. .... Rick
Um, really? I sure would have had a hard time convincing my C.O. during my deck officer quals that I didn't have to concern myself with the location of tugs & pilot boats! That concern is real and restricts what maneuvers you can and should make in restricted maneuvering situations... period. Sinking a tug (which has unfortunately also happened) is really frowned upon.
 
Good chance though.... if the tug is working with the ship as an escort or even independent but working nearby there would be some form of comms between them.

If the tug isn't attached to something, then it would most likely keep out of the way of the ship unless it was transiting the channel because it needed to.

I see both sides but also the typical different circumstances.
 
Thank you for the clarification. My knowledge is limited to simple deployments and my son's particular experience. Obviously, there is a lot more to it. An article in defensenews.com (2/10/2022) mentioned that the Navy is short 9,000 sailors for sea duty.[/QUOT
Due to the lack of personnel, the Navy is now accepting Grade IV. candidates, that were once considered ineligible for service.
 
I think I read they are accepting much older recruits for certain specialties. It makes sense since a bunch of the same aged guys helped win WWII.

Wisdom is hard to come by and sometimes people once they have grown up learn fast.

The USCG is accepting older recruits for their reserve as I think the same article wrote.
 
With all the services short on personnel, how long will it be before they bring back McNamara's Project 100,000?
 
With all the services short on personnel, how long will it be before they bring back McNamara's Project 100,000?

They already are as already described.

The world and warfare have changed a lot since Vietnam.

Sure some military concepts haven't but just like the Ukranian conflict is showing us every day, some strategies from old are still effective while others are not.

Before, hot shot pilots were excellent physical specimens...not a hot shot pilot can be a couch potato with a control console and thousands of miles behind the lines. Same with programmers and hackers have become front line warriors but far from any shooting.

Putin is the one grabbing at straws (in his case 300,000 recently)... we are doing it with a bit more of a plan.
 
This is actually reassuring in many respects. Not sure about WWII aged recruits as they may be a bit long in the tooth but losing such a wealth of knowledge is such a waste. My biggest complaint with the USCG system is the way they continually transfer out good hands just when they have the job figured out. This is especially true with hull inspectors.

I spent over thirty years working with various USCG MSO offices on both coasts. My specialty was wooden vessel T- Boats and it was a constant headache where the operators worked hard to comply with their hull inspectors then one day he’s transferred and a new green inspector shows up and wants things now done differently. No continuity and pissed off operators. It hard to run a business if you don’t know what enforcement wants. During the last fifteen years every one of the new guys had no more experience than a two week course on wood hull construction offered by a retired CO in San Diego. Had the USCG just kept a handful of the older experienced inspectors to show the way for the green hands the entire inspection process would have been smoother and more efficient.

Rick
 
So what's the solution ? Require 25 years instead of 20 to get a pension ? Signing bonus for re-enlisting ? Higher salaries ? Better treatment ?
 
At the time I was in, a pension wasn't guaranteed. It depended on the Congress and President du jour. Republican good, Democrat bad. Hard to base a retirement decision upon that. I went from Reagan, to Bush, to Clinton. Clinton decimated the USN.

That sad, I was offered $25k to re-enlist in the 90s and opted out. They upped it to 40K.A fair amount of money at the time. Still declined.

As much as I enjoyed my military life, it just wasn't conducive to married life. No regrets either way for doing half a career. A hat tip to those who can manage being a husband, father, and a sailor concurrently. I didn't even want to try. Two years of marriage while in uniform convinced me otherwise.

"You were there for the laying of the keel, you don't need to be there for the launching of the ship" just didn't cut it for me as a responsible parent/spouse. I saw too many failures to convince myself otherwise. My priorities had changed.

It is what it is. And it ain't easy.

Go Navy. Beat Army.
 
Last edited:
So what's the solution ? Require 25 years instead of 20 to get a pension ? Signing bonus for re-enlisting ? Higher salaries ? Better treatment ?

To me a big failure is "enticements". Drawing people in by making promises that have nothing to do with a happy career....things that just spoils them ....then they are either miserable when a promise is broken or get out. Thus the system breaks down at many levels.

Leadership has to find a way to treat individual needs at lower level....because people are individuals, they change as they grow up, emergency needs well of course emerge and a solution is needed.

The one size fits all, everyone is the same leadership is for the weak, the mindless, the self preserving, etc...etc... Leaders lead and have to be smart enough to figure out how to manage individuals and not clones and explain why different treatment at certain times works for all. Sure boot camp is about breaking one down and rebuilding into a clone... that's so they "get it"...but once in past a couple years to 5, 6..... the end of enlistments etc...these people have been subjected to all forms of leadership and depending how good or bad it was mostly determines whether the service will get another chance...and that repeats until a person leaves or retires.

The other killer is the "up or out" system. It hurts on many levels because people have to get varied experiences (moved around a lot as Garbler mentioned) or forced out early in a career because of many reasons that aren't associated with performance. I understand that is was developed because of the poor performance of the pre WWII military...too many retired on active duty... but the USCG quickly realized that in tough times they needed programs to keep some of that experienced talent around. The problem is, many will not serve in a reduced or limited or relocated capacity so it seems only partially accepted. Some are just bitter for being forced out in their prime.

For me, one thing that really hurt was the grinding down of respect for people in uniform. Not the public, just times a'chngin. I used to joke how back in the late 1800's a Major or Lieutenant Colonel could be a territorial governor. They had almost unlimited powers vested in them. By the time I retired, I couldn't get a pencil without going through 2 or 3 junior people, a couple of forms and told it would take 2 weeks. When I joined and was assigned an investigation....I would do it, written on yellow legal pads and when done, give it to a yeoman (basically a clerk) to be typed up and submitted up the chain of command. By the time I retired, I had to type the thing up myself...but instead of it disappearing...it would get emailed back and forth for days with some senior guy tweeking, correcting, not agreeing, etc...etc... I signed it...get over it and send it up the line ...fortunately word processing took care of spelling and basic grammar so that was not the issue.

Then there are all the "social" issues that takes important time out of "the good stuff". People are offended at the drop of a hat these days. So the military being the best social science test bed, program after program requires personnel to sit through training that I agree can help..but way too many were quickly brought online and not well thought out to do real good.

Bottom line is society is way more complex than it was years ago...on all levels...so there are no easy answers. People haven't changed all that much over the years, but society has expected us to all conform to a neutral center. Many changes have been really good, others not so much and have cost money and time that we will never get back...and a lot of good people hit the road because of them.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom