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Old 10-31-2021, 08:43 PM   #21
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ok this will be a long response but the sailboat was operating under power which makes it null and void. Also you had the current on your stern and were 52 ft compared to his 31 feet. You had the right of way and by the sounds of it the pass was made outside of the the bridge so the bridge tender cant tell you how to make your pass. Also you are not required to monitor any VHF channel unless your a commercial vessel. If your air draft was sufficient to fit under the bridge in the closed position your not required call bridge tender to pass under it. Here is where it is gonna get long this is copied directly from he colregs.
Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account: (i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.
Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision

(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with Rules 4-19 and shall if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.

(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.

(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.

(f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by Rules 4-19.

(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with Rules 4-19 when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

Rule 9 - Narrow Channels (a) ‹‹(i)›› A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
Inland (ii) Notwithstanding Rule 9(a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channel or fairway on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. (b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel ‹ which › ‹‹ that ›› can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.
(d) A vessel ‹ shall › ‹‹ must ›› not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel ‹ may › ‹‹ must ›› use the signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

International Inland (e)(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d). (e)(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking, the power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c) and take steps to permit safe passing. The power-driven vessel being overtaken, if in agreement, shall sound the same signal and may, if specifically agreed to, take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she shall sound the signal prescribed in Rule 34(d).
(e)(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e).
(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.


As far as I am concerned as a licensed captain and merchant mariner you did the right thing. the only thing you could have done better would have been to monitor 9 as well as 16. Commercial vessels typically monitor 13 and 16. Who knows if the bridge tender had a bad day or not. Sounds like guy on sailboat didn't have a problem.
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Old 10-31-2021, 09:00 PM   #22
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How did the OP automatically have the right of way? Unless there was a local rule concerning current and right of way. Otherwise it is only a courtesy and a weak one at that unless it's easy to tell who has the fair/ foul current.

Size is meaningless and by rule 2 my gut says the bridge opening was for the sailboat, therefore he should have priority. We are all concerned that opening become more restrictive every year and prolonging an opening is just bad form. So bogarting the passage ( because not everyone is comfy with passing a large vessel under bridges) to me could easily fall under rule 2... and this might be why the tender sad "hey, you should let the sailboat go first". It's all conjecture for those of us that weren't there...but I don't think there really was a right of way issue as much as if boats are waiting for the opening, give them the courtesy of the first move so the closing is expedited.
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Old 10-31-2021, 09:31 PM   #23
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Not obvious to me why two small motoring boats can't pass within a 90-foot-wide passage at the same time.
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Old 11-01-2021, 03:43 AM   #24
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If a sail boat is under power it is no longer a sail boat.
The bridge masters rules are to be obeyed at all times.
You should have been running two VHFs one on 16 and one on 9.
It is your responsibility to AVOID collision at all times no mater who has the right of way.
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Old 11-01-2021, 04:20 AM   #25
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If the OP was 75 yards beyond the bridge when passing the sailboat, I don’t think the OP prolonged the opening. The sailboat wasn’t anywhere near it yet. Because the bridge opened for the sailboat, I don’t see how that gives it any priority either. Why should the OP wait around for the sailboat to pass before proceeding because the bridge was open and he did not require it to be. For all we know, the sailboat might have seen the OP and was waiting for him to pass first.

I can understand a bridge instructing boats not to proceed until the bridge is fully up. But I have not found any regulation as yet, that says that bridge tenders have any authority over the navigation of vessels. I’ve looked at CFR, CG and Fl regulations and haven’t seen it. More often than not, I’ve heard tenders on VHF tell boaters that it’s not the tender’s responsibility, it’s up to the boaters to decide. We have often discussed with tugs who is to go first and we always defer to them. Sometimes they want us through first, sometimes they want to proceed first. It depends on the traffic, the tug’s load, the conditions and the nature of the waterway. I doubt tenders understand that nuance or necessity.

I read on the Florida bridge tender contractor site that tenders get 2-3 days of training how to operate bridges. And all of the sudden they have acquire the skills to be VTS controllers?
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Old 11-01-2021, 06:36 AM   #26
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Question: Where does it say the the vessel that has the bridge opened for has the right of way? And who is to say that both boats couldn't pass under the bridge at the same time? And, if so, would it take precedence over the boat with the trailing current? (Thinking of Manasquan Inlet).



I believe the size of boats were talking about can easily share a passage under most bridges at the same time.
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Old 11-01-2021, 07:18 AM   #27
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Question: Where does it say the the vessel that has the bridge opened for has the right of way? And who is to say that both boats couldn't pass under the bridge at the same time? And, if so, would it take precedence over the boat with the trailing current? (Thinking of Manasquan Inlet).



I believe the size of boats were talking about can easily share a passage under most bridges at the same time.
At one time, I thought I had read there was a local navigational rule that did give right of way to fair current vessels in Manasquan inlet. I have been in and out of that inlet off and on for over 55 years...both recreational and commercially. But I am danged if I can find a reference to that anymore.

Many posts here I believe to be correct when they say there is no right of way, the bridge tender has no authority and there should be plenty of room to pass in a 90 foot span.

There are always going to be other viewpoints. Like those of the sailboater and bridgetender. Doest make them right, but that is still their frame of mind.

For those not familiar with many large powerboats inches area of Florida...heck I don't like boating anywhere near them, let alone under a bridge with them, especially if I felt like I needed clearance on a cantilevered draw for mast clearance. Not being there in this case, I can see both sides. But is funny how many posts on TF discuss the lack of courtesy, and wake threads on how everyone is in a hurry.... and my perspective on this issue is really in line with that.

I have no idea what authority the tenders actually have or not. I know after decades of trying (but just a little) to find that out, and never knowing of any while I was in the USCG....I have had a few tenders direct which side of the bridge vessels should go through first. Also on another bridge near the one in the OP I got chastised for going through a closing bridge when I had not requested an opening....I didn't need one and was just flowing with traffic. Not sure if they feel that is a safety thing or what.

My point is...bridges open for boats that need them too. Bridges are under pressure in many areas to not open at all. So being able to communicate with the tender and waiting vessels to make that whole operation safe and quick may require everyone to agree, even if it means impeding my passage. Rule, law or opinion? Sure just my opinion.
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Old 11-01-2021, 07:36 AM   #28
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I’ve been last in line at Gilmerton and have told the tender not to wait for me to close because I don’t need the clearance. At Alligator River southbound, I’ve told the tender I’m turning right to get fried chicken at (formerly) Miss Wanda’s and won’t need the opening. I’ve always been told to use the west opening, I assume so the tender can see the boats going through.

In Florida, I heard a boater berating a bridge tender to hold for them an additional 15 minutes. The tender said he couldn’t because there was six lanes of rush hour traffic. The boater screamed that he didn’t care.

At Gilmerton Bridge, an approaching boat behind a long line of us harangued the bridge tender wanting to know how long Bridge 7 RR bridge would be closed and when it would open. The tender repeated over and over she had no control over the RR bridge, only the road bridge. Yet that boater would not stop his demands.

It goes on but, I’m still surprised at the self-absorbed entitlement of some boaters and wouldn’t blame bridge tenders if they want to stereotype boaters as some boaters stereotype them.
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Old 11-01-2021, 08:40 AM   #29
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I'm sure that some of us can appreciate the bridge opening schedules and the thrust to keep the closed as much as possible, especially during rush hour.


My "favorite" bridge in Madeira Beach, FL has that problem, and I use both the top and bottom of it a lot, however, I don't need an opening. I bike over the top 3 or 4 times a week, right at rush hour and an opening will have traffic backed up brutally and take 15 to 20 minutes to move thru. So, they changed the opening from on the 20 to on the hour and half hour which is fine.


We have one sail boat training captain that constantly takes his students under the bridge and will do it several times in an afternoon and takes his sweet time. Absolutely no reason for this, and he's probably the reason they changed things.


Most of the boaters that require an opening do it quite well without issue or delay. But, there's always a few jerks.


Just for fun, one day, I radioed the bridge tender from my windsurfer and asked when the next opening was....he had no sense of humor.
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Old 11-01-2021, 09:36 AM   #30
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I've searched through the CFR and come up empty handed on responsibilities for navigating through drawbridges, I found one that was location specific and most likely superseded (outdated) instructions for signaling responsibilities at a drawbridge in Texas but didn't find any universal regulations.

It is apparent to me that boaters are not on the same page when it comes to not making a wake, I believe most "captains" are honestly oblivious. I have no way of knowing but if the OP was leaving a 1" or 1' wake but the later could send a sailboat under power rocking violently back and forth and potentially snagging a stay on the bridge or the superstructure of passing boat, that would be worth a discussion with the offender.
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Old 11-01-2021, 09:41 AM   #31
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Answering all your questions; Never take rules of the road direction from a bridge tender. At the mere 75 yards from the bridge when it began to open in that size vessel with a current astern, you did NOTHING wrong. Channel 9? nmmmph.
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Old 11-01-2021, 09:50 AM   #32
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By the bye, as far as my memory serves me, the only place in the INLAND Rules of the Road where current and "right of way" are mentioned is upon the Western Rivers. In NO place along the saltwater routes of the US is current officially recognized as an enabling mechanism for those with it astern to claim any preference.
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Old 11-01-2021, 10:10 AM   #33
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Rule for C&D canal.

(c) Right-of-way. All vessels proceeding with the current shall have the right-of-way over those proceeding against the current. Large vessels or tows must not overtake and attempt to pass other large vessels or tows in the waterway. All small pleasure craft shall relinquish the right-of-way to deeper draft vessels, which have a limited maneuvering ability due to their draft and size.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/162.40

There are all kinds of local rules all over the place... unfortunately researching them all sometimes is so difficult, hit or miss is the only way I come across them.
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Old 11-01-2021, 10:28 AM   #34
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Rule for C&D canal.

(c) Right-of-way. All vessels proceeding with the current shall have the right-of-way over those proceeding against the current. Large vessels or tows must not overtake and attempt to pass other large vessels or tows in the waterway. All small pleasure craft shall relinquish the right-of-way to deeper draft vessels, which have a limited maneuvering ability due to their draft and size.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/162.40

There are all kinds of local rules all over the place... unfortunately researching them all sometimes is so difficult, hit or miss is the only way I come across them.
Excellent point. Thanks. I still think this bridge tender was full of it.
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Old 11-01-2021, 11:26 AM   #35
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When I'm about 75 yds south of the bridge, heading north, it begins to open, presumably for the sailboat. However the sailboat does not begin to turn south and remains facing west until the bridge is fully opened.
It should not matter what the sailboat was doing.

1) The sailboat called for the bridge opening.

2) The bridge was effectively open upon your arrival

3) You did not signal for the bridge opening prior to passage.

The purpose of the signal is to notify the bridge tender of your intention to pass. He might have a larger vessel or one constrained on the other side. He is effectively the 'traffic cop' at the intersection.


Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters
Volume: 1
Date: 2018-07-01
Original Date: 2018-07-01
Title: PART 117 - DRAWBRIDGE OPERATION REGULATIONS
Context: Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters. CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY. SUBCHAPTER J - BRIDGES.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...l1-part117.xml

§ 117.21Signalling for an opened drawbridge.
When a vessel approaches a drawbridge with the draw in the open position, the vessel shall give the opening signal. If no acknowledgment is received within 30 seconds, the vessel may proceed, with caution, through the open draw.
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Old 11-01-2021, 11:35 AM   #36
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Not sure that is for vessels passing that DO NOT require the opening, but I agree it is not clear.

It also doesnt really give the tender authority...yet they are empowered to give 5 short blasts to signify danger.
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:04 PM   #37
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“§ 117.21Signalling for an opened drawbridge.
When a vessel approaches a drawbridge with the draw in the open position, the vessel shall give the opening signal. If no acknowledgment is received within 30 seconds, the vessel may proceed, with caution, through the open draw”

That looks like some cherry picking. Reading from 117.15 et seq. seems clearer to me that the intent is to address boats that require the bridge to be open, not all boats at any time, all the time.

E.g. “(a) General. (1) The operator of each vessel requesting a drawbridge to open shall signal the drawtender and the drawtender shall acknowledge that signal. The signal shall be repeated until acknowledged in some manner by the drawtender before proceeding.”

I think the purpose of 117.21 is for boats that need the bridge to remain open when it is presently open must signal so they can be alerted if it is imminently coming down. A long and short blast isn’t asking for permission to pass under the bridge, it’s requesting that the bridge open.
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:10 PM   #38
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Hello all,

Thank you for all of the replies. I really didn't think there would be that much interest in my situation. I consideer myself a pretty seasoned ocean-going mariner but your combined knowledge and experience dwarfs mine. I spoke with Mr. Randall Overton, Commander of the 7th District, Miami, and Bridge Management expert. I also read through the USCG Radio Information for Boaters. This is what Ive learned from them about the techincalities and I'll also explain what I've learned from your experience regarding prudent marine operations.

1) Am I required to monitor Ch 9? The answer is no. FCC regulations require boaters having a VHF radio to maintain a watch on either channel 9 or 16 but since the CG does not have the capability to transmit urgent marine information broadcasts or weather information over Ch 9, use of Ch 9 is optional. They recomment boaters monitor Ch 16 unless otherwise notified by the Coast Guard.

2) Does the vessel that has been granted an opening receive special priviledge for passage? The answer is no. Normal Rules of the Road regarding passing and overtaking apply and the bridgetender has no play in this. He does not direct traffic, he merely opens the bridge and the coordination of vessel operation is done between the vessels themselves. However, Commander Overton stated that the bridge wants to remain open for as short a period of time so if my passage delays the other vessel and causes the bridge to remain open longer, while not illegal, it is certainly bad form and unneccesary. This would have been easier if I'd have been monitoring Ch 9. However, if I did not impede the other boat then there was no issue.

3) Lastly to the matter of wake, I did not receive an official answer as this is a subjective matter but it seems the group concensus is that I need to operate as slowly as I can while still maintaining enough headway to control my vessel. This is what I had done.

But beyond that the lessons I've learned from you are:

1) I could have avoided most of this had I been monitoring Ch 9. This seems a simple request and prudent operating technique. In the future I will scan 16 and 9 anytime I am operating within sight of a bridge. I will also attempt to contact any other vessel who may be on the other side to coordinate our passing. 2) I will take what a bridgetender tells me with a grain of salt. They are not the "traffic cop" but merely the bridge raiser. However, coordinating with them on Ch 9 when in doubt will provide for a much smooter day for all of us and just might eliminate a bad day for one of us. And lastly, while my minimal wake might be nothing for a 14' open fish, and might only cause a paddleboarder to take a knee, it may cause significant rocking for a sailboat who needs to keep his mast out of the bridge components or another passing vessel. I don't believe my wake caused any issue here but I will be more observant of that in the future.

Thank you all for your input and advice. I've learned a lot in this and perhaps someone else has as well.

Sincerely,

Peter
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:16 PM   #39
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1) I could have avoided most of this had I been monitoring Ch 9. This seems a simple request and prudent operating technique. In the future I will scan 16 and 9 anytime I am operating within sight of a bridge.
Won't always be 9 so need to use a guide to know what channels bridges and locks and others are using.
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:36 PM   #40
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That's correct. In Florida all bridges monitor Ch 9, the Locks mostly are on 13. But you are correct, in other parts of the country things are different and a guide would be very beneficial. I've found that at least in South Florida the Bridges all have signs stating their channel and usually phone number as well.
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