Open Concept Saloons in a Seaway

[garbler]

Many prospective buyers especially newer buyers love the big open concept saloons and I understand this from a creature comfort and guests aboard concern but nobody talks about some rather ugly consequences of large open areas in a seaway. If your young and agile a quick beam motion or quick roll may not be a concern as recovery is easier. But those with some years under their belt don’t suffer this type of layout well. I can assure you that yachts and passenger vessels without hand holds or means of restraint often result in injuries. Too many newer designs lack any grabrails or restraints from being thrown across a big wide saloon. This critical design feature seems to have been omitted by most of todays yacht interior designers. I’ve been told that lots of glass and windows in a space can negatively affect some peoples depth perception and/or spatial perception. I’ve worked with a few designers and many feel overhead and lower grab or hand rails detract from their intended aesthetic concept. It’s unfortunate as I always considered boats as a compromise on almost every level

If you look at designs of old Naval Architects such as Phil Rhodes, Olin Stephen’s, John Alden, Bill Garden etc. they designed interiors for safe comfortable sea use. Many are sort of spartan by today’s standards but there are safety features that are proven and should not be ignored. Galleys down below out of traffic and where motion is less. Hand holds above and waist high but always within reach so a person could monkey bar their way along. Tables and counter tops should have solid reasonably high fiddles or edge moldings not only to keep plates and stuff from sliding off but also as hand holds.

I recall a sea trial in 1994 with a 65’ MY crossing Plum Is inlet in Massachusetts and on the way out ran into a moderately breaking bar. The owner who knew the area, he said, told everybody it was no problem. I was in the engine room checking machinery and was thrown against the water heater but with the engine noises and my ears on I didn’t hear a thing. My mistake cause I thought the inlet was still a mile or more away. When I got up to the helm and saloon I found the owner and his wife were both injured. The buyers were scared and nobody on the wheel. The owner had nothing to hang on to and was thrown against a bar type counter top resulting in four broken ribs and a punctured lung and his wife was face down under a chair that was only screw fastened to the sole with four #8 screws.

Consider this when you go boat shopping and don’t discount these feature because of stabilizers.

Rick

 

[Osprey69]

Yup. Our sailboat has hand-holds everywhere which we used them while crossing the gulf stream many a time.

We have added handholds on our MY where real estate was available and where it made sense.

We especially added them in the flybridge. But, after this story, I will add others to grab while seated at the helm or anywhere else.

Thanks.

 

[mvweebles]

Very famous picture around the West Coast of MOJO, a 65-foot Pacemaker (or similar, I forget) with George C. Scott aboard exiting Morro Bay in the early 1970s. Legend has it he was filming "Patton" at the time and was feeling his oats. His wife broke an arm, and the boat sustained considerable damage.

If only it had handholds....

Peter

 

[garbler]

Peter

Mojo could have used a bit more than hand holds. My old surveyor boss/owner handled that claim for Talbot & Bird. George C Scott apparently threw a fit telling the charter captain to get underway as he was tired of hanging around Moro Bay and reportedly needed to get somewhere right now. Interviews revealed he was a very moody miserable charterer and adamant the boat leave. He accused the captain of lacking two reproductive orbs and that any 90’ yacht worth a damn can get through the inlet. The woman onboard I think was his wife but she had broken ribs and some spinal injuries. They were so lucky and after seeing the photos it’s hard to believe the vessel only had around $100K worth of damage

Rick

 

[Comodave]

Still is an awesome photo.

 

[MYTraveler]

When I spec'd my semi custom boat (64' LOD, 100,000 pounds, stabilized), I opted to omit overhead grab rails in the salon, etc. My propensity to seasickness tends to make me a fair weather sailor, but my desire to fish far offshore on multi-day excursions makes exposure to rough seas unavoidable. In any event, I haven't missed the grab rails. On the few occasions when it is too rough to walk around with relative ease, I stay put, crawl, and/or time my movements.

 

[FWT]

I appreciate the point made about handholds. I'm having a couple added in my new build. Ex sailors seem to gravitate more toward them.

But I do have to say, if you smack into a bar unexpectedly its unlikely a handhold is going to help you much if you are not braced for impact. I know a guy who recently hit a bar at speeds in the teens. Of the 4 souls aboard, 3 were hospitalized, 1 seriously. The helmsman had hands on the wheel at the time and was the exception. A person standing next to him was likely holding onto a dash ahead of him to just steady himself underway, but was thrown through the windshield. Two others were seated in the salon around a table, and thrown into the table and hurt from impacting the table. The outcome would not have been improved by extra handholds.

I hesitate in throwing this example out there because indeed I do agree with your point. One hand for the boat and one for yourself is sage advice, and I made certain choices in respecting that point of view. Just walking around when the seas are up is a different issue than smacking a bar, but more common and no less important.

 

[ksanders]

My opinion is most cruisers aboid conditions where being thrown around is a major concern.

I would certainly not choose a boat based on that.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I like my overhead grab in the saloon and I like the grab all along the side decks. I also yell out "big wave coming" to alert crew -

 

[Gdavid]

Products tend to evolve to suit how customers actually use them. Most boats spend the vast majority of their life tied to a dock, seldom underway. It may a waste of a magnificent tool but it is pragmatic in it's own way.

 

[Hippocampus]

See this in both recent sail and power designs. Beyond handholds also applies to wide open spaces. See double wheels on slice of pizza sail boats. No way to move about the cockpit safely. In some no way to remain tethered if going side to side. In trawlers no way to transverse the salon as open spaces are maximized to increase visual appeal. Other issue is where handholds are placed. Wife is 4’10”. I’m a even 6’. What works for her doesn’t for me. People think falls only occur in bad weather. Know that’s not true. A bad wake or unexpected wind wave is enough. Don’t like seeing right angle corners on any edges or thin edges to those surfaces. One of the advantages of fiddles is to make edges thicker. Don’t like scatter rugs unless non skid. Don’t like deep overhangs. Do like surfaces to lean on when using stairs and must have hand rails. It’s immediately obvious if designer is a avid boater. They think about this stuff and include it into the design. At least in the smaller Nordhavns fall and bang injury risk mitigation is well done. Not as good is my NT but I thought marginally better than the AT. With the AT much better than several other designs we looked at.
Needs/desires at anchor are different than when underway. Difficult to optimize for both.
Once did a Bermuda race in a very high speed tri. Upon returning to home showered. Had continuous black and blues from wrists to shoulders on the outside surfaces. And continuous from hips to knees on the outside as well. Don’t recall any falls or bangs. Didn’t have any bad weather. My clotting is normal.

 

[slowgoesit]

Robert Beebe of "Voyaging Under Power" believed that your should be able to reach two hand holds from any position in the boat. Our boat has overhead hand holds, places to grab on to through out the boat.

Also, those "wide open" salons, while aesthetically pleasing, are a LOT of wasted space, but often result from designers who know nothing about boats choosing form over function . . .

I recently looked at the interior design of a cat being built for some well known youtubers. One of the first things I noticed about the salon was all those sharp corners on the cabinetry and on the counters . . . . I suspect that the builders thought something like, "It's a Cat, it's stable, and no one is going to be thrown around, so we can put in all the pointy corners we want inside the cabin!" Maybe it's cheaper to do sharp corners than round them for safety?!?

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree Slow. In both sail and power unless effort is spent multi hulls are the worst. Ocean designs like Outremer, Catana, and rapido make an effort to decrease risk. Have no experience on power cats but at least for sail boat may partially stall or have a jerky (small amplitude) motion that’s irregular. Don’t need severe weather just a uncomfortable angle of attack. Reminiscent of the ride in a light high speed center console. Not anywhere nearly as bad but still difficult to move around. Personally found trouble timing my movement. I know I’m clumsy and haven’t spent enough time on them to acclimate not having owned one. But agree with Beebe.

 

[SteveK]

A series of steep waves from a passing boat tossed the TV to the floor. It is now secured.

Handholds are worth having and may save an injury. Here is the problem, as we age, can one or two hands hold our body weight? Maybe, but I know some with arthritis will not be able to hang on.
Nothing you can do if hit harder than expected. Injuries will happen.

 

[garbler]

I don’t have much experience on multi-hulls at sea but once crewed on one Bermuda race on a yachtized old IOR boat and two days was like riding a cement mixer. I swear there was one day when everytime a guy went below you could hear every swear word in the book as some guy crashed into something.

Another really hazardous place especially on the old CCA era blow boats are those very deep companionway ladders. Those designs are deep so four to six steps is typical. Coming from the sunshine of the cockpit with small pupils and you step over the bridge deck to go below and it’s so dark you can’t see a thing. I’ve had several falls and close calls on surveys. It’s hard to get your eyes acclimated fast enough so it’s best to hold on to the hatch rails until you can at least see the cabin sole

Rick

 

[Hippocampus]

Try a two companion way Swan. Stupidest design ever imho.

 

[Hippocampus]

Steve in a good design you can lead against things. Especially important cooking, on the pot doing your business, or while standing while helming. It’s not all about sharp edges and handholds. It’s about never developing enough inertia that you’re never dependent upon the strength of one hand. It’s the reason I don’t like European style galleys. Rather have C shaped one. Now there’s a increase in boats with a pilot house that includes the salon. The rest of the boat flush deck. A lower house beyond the pilot house coming up to slightly above your knees with a handhold running it’s length gives you someplace to sit so you can have both hands free and not go flying. Between that and a toe rail firmer footing. You can have lockers under the actual deck so your not raising the weight effecting stability. You can even improve stability. Don’t get flush decks on either power or sail cruising boats. Big open places with nothing to hold. Green water rushing all the way aft.

 

[mvweebles]

Let's face it. The upright human form factor is not designed for highly unstable platforms. After a couple days on a moving boat, I too develop compression bruises not from banging into things, but from leaning against the same places for stability.

Hippocampus- given the height difference between you and your wife, I assume you've fitted vertical uprights for handholds between a counter and ceiling? Works well for overcrowded buses and subway cars.

Do boat builders still fit strong fiddles on counters with cove-cut for finger hold?

Peter

 

[garbler]

Do boat builders still fit strong fiddles on counters with cove-cut for finger hold?

Peter

A few do but in order to properly fasten this type of fiddle or edge molding you refer to you have to make a table or counter top solid and thick enough to fasten them properly. Most of today’s production boats are either MDF with laminate or similar veneer nether of which can withstand lateral or abrupt loads. Custom builders or good builders do it right. The coving detail is, like you say, very important but you need a good hand on a shaper with tooling to do it right. When I had my shops every counter or table top had fully radiuses corners so we jigged up to saw and shape corners. The Europeans and better builders on this side now laminate these including all passageway frames.

Rick

 

[wkearney99]

I despise the 'kidney killer' square edges they put on various tables and counters in many of the modern boats. Many of the italian brands went that route. Seemed like a very bad plan. Likewise the lack of overhead grab rails.

 

[djousset]

That inlet on the Merrimack River is my home port, I do it regularly in a sailboat with a 2 cylinder Yanmar. It is no joke, people often underestimate that entry. I am about to move to a trawler, thanks for the reminder!

 

[Osprey69]

Try a two companion way Swan. Stupidest design ever imho.

Or Swans split cockpit requiring maneuvering around the dodger etc. to the center companionway in a seaway.

WTF.

 

[IfItsWorthDoing]

Could not agree more

Important thread and good points all round! We have just commissioned a compact cruiser cat (34ft/10m sailing design but ordered as a motor trawler without mast & rigging) and my wife has spinal fractures and reduced mobility. We recently spent a week on 60ft Fountaine-Pajot cat among the Aeolian islands off the North coast of Sicily - we had expected the biggish (17 ton) cat to be quite stable but both the initial cruise from Milazzo out to Vulcano and also the wake every time a (smallish) ferry or speedboat passed taught us otherwise: The swell and shake was remarkably dangerous - our S/S bathing ladder was actually shaken loose of its fastening and fell off into the deep!

That's why we are so happy with our little Broadblue 346: Compared to a slightly larger and more expensive FP Isla 40/MY4 for example she actually has handholds within reach everywhere, the cockpit is securely enclosed all around, and access into the saloon is via a narrow 3-step companionway. That, among other things, is probably why she is CE-A (Ocean) rated whereas the French gin palace is not ...

 

[Circumnavigator]

Try a two companion way Swan. Stupidest design ever imho.

Sweetwater, the Swan 57 that we took around the world, has two companionways. I really liked it -- when one of us was on watch, the other was sleeping immediately below, only four steps from the cockpit, yet when we had others aboard they didn't have to go through the master cabin to get to the cockpit.


Several comments above talk about avoiding big waves. Good idea, but you can't avoid idiots who pass at 25 knots fifty feet away when there's a mile of good water on either side. There are moments when I wish our 10 gauge saluting cannon took something besides blanks. We had handrails everywhere in Fintry and installed several overhead and vertical in Morning Light.


Jim

 

[Southern Boater]

They were so lucky and after seeing the photos it’s hard to believe the vessel only had around $100K worth of damage

Rick

$100K in the early 1970’s would have been quite a sum, if you think about the price of the average house at the time.

 

[markpierce]

....I like the grab all along the side decks. I also yell out "big wave coming" to alert crew -

Strong, sturdy (not wiggly) railings were a must for me.

 

[garbler]

That inlet on the Merrimack River is my home port, I do it regularly in a sailboat with a 2 cylinder Yanmar. It is no joke, people often underestimate that entry. I am about to move to a trawler, thanks for the reminder!

You must have fun coming back up that fast river on two cylinders. I’ve heard lots of hairy tales about accidents and deaths on Plum Island bar from Jay Lesysnki owner of Merri-Mar and salvage diver and it can be very treacherous.

Rick

 

[Hippocampus]

This one. Getting to the forward companion way when it was sporty wasn’t fun.

 

[FWT]

Hippo:

Good heavens. What a mess. "What were they thinking?" was created with that in mind.

 

[La Sirena]

When I'm under way I spend zero time in the salon, unless it's overnight, then I sleep on the salon settee. I enjoy a big salon while at anchor.