Nordhavn runs aground Ocean Reef

[Hippocampus]

TT my understanding is the AI in the AP analyses past behavior of the boat as it holds a course. It learns things like every fifth wave is larger or intuits there’s two wave trains from different angles. It also learns what to expect from different rudder inputs at different speeds. It also collects from other sources current and wind effects and predicts what effect they will have. In short it’s doing a multi factorial analysis. As you know a really good helmsman is turning the wheel (or moving the tiller) ahead of the boat going off course. So the boat doesn’t deviate. A really good helmsman uses the least steering you can get away with as steering creates turbulence and parasitic drag.

Although daschews boats are larger and thinner for most small boats Allard Coles teachings still mostly hold half a century later. In the true snot you ride up at a slight angle. Turn perpendicular at the top. Surf down at a slight angle to prevent borrowing your bow at the bottom but making sure you don’t broach. That requires a fine touch and I don’t think most APs can do that. So we take 15 minutes stints at the helm. My understanding is the current generation of high tech APs can do it.

Motor has an advantage. It’s easier to vary speed. Climbing a wave you can give more throttle and less on the backside. Sometimes you can keep yourself in the same relationship to the wave with your bow slightly up. Usually just after the trough where the wind is less. I think most APs can do that with you constantly playing the throttle. Also with power by varying throttle you have more opportunity to have water flowing around the rudder so there’s still an effect from steering. The scariest thing for me is surfing at the same speed as the wave on a sailboat. Then turning the wheel does nothing.

However at this point in my life I don’t need the thrill. When I was ocean just carried a JSD for such occasions. Storm tactics were totally passive. Now coastal I try to never be in such situations. So my low tech AP is just fine with me. One of the reasons LDL ocean boat appeal to me is although power they should do as well as sail if not better with a JSD. I don’t like sea anchors. Think they are too hard to work with, recover and steering gear is at risk if the boat backs up. Boats are designed to go forward. Reverse is a low speed maneuver in calm conditions.

Most common AP failure point is the rudder angle indicator and then the drive unit in my limited experience. I like recent offerings aren’t as vulnerable.

 

[backinblue]

So I'm to believe that steering is a menial task best left to the a/p and the capt should use all tools at his disposal so that he can focus on the situation and not actually pilot the boat.

However, thrusters are a crutch and a seasoned professional shouldn't use them but rather focus his attention on engines and rudders to get the job done instead of nudging a joystick.

Thanks for that enlightenment. Guess I have a lot to learn.

 

[mvweebles]

Worthwhile to read attainable adventures articles about APs. Many of us don’t fully understand how they work and how to tune them to get the most out of them. I’ve been using them for 95+% of my steering for over three decades and learned stuff from that review. Basically our APs are pretty dumb compared to the latest generation of high tech APs. I didn’t fully grasp this until being exposed to the upper echelon of NKEs and the like. Still APs steer better than humans. Biggest difference between run of the mill APs and high tech is the high tech is able to predict the future. It’s constantly learning the behavior of the waves and wind so can predict what rudder input to give and how much better than a human. Contrary to my prior belief does a better job than hand steering in heavy weather or surfing than a human and much faster. But my AP is dumb not with a $20k brain unit and 30 to 40k total parts cost. Perhaps maybe some of the large Nordie or KK owners can post their experience in weather with high tech units. I have no experience of them with power.
So there’s no question I run my boat 95% of the time underway. The admiral spells me for pee breaks and the like. Running a narrow channel I believe I’m safer with the AP steering and me with a hand next to standby and the turning knob fine tuning the course. I’m on standby for close encounters as I don’t know what the other vessel will do. Too many don’t follow colregs. I also sometimes go to standby if there’s a lot of pots or debris or very frequent turns in skinny water. But the overwhelming amount of time the AP is on.
Have been on a fair amount on other peoples boats. They do the same. Some with joy sticks making it easier to dodge even more. Totally agree with Peter and PSN. Understand what’s on your boat and use it to its safe capabilities.

Any chance you can post some of the tuning advice from Morgan's Cloud? There are only a few afjustable parameters for most autopilots and I don't do it enough to remember their names - Rudder, Counter-rudder, and Yaw (I think). My old Comnav manual had a very good description that was pretty simple but for the life of me it escapes my best Google efforts. Somewhat counter intuitively, sometimes reducing a setting is the right answer as it gives the boat time to respond (reducing counter-steering comes to mind).

I've never seen a decent article on adjusting an AP. Would be great if there's one out there

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

Black blue and Hippo and a couple more,
I’m glad to see that sarcasm is alive and well in here.


I think we can all agree, decisions are made based upon weather, traffic and and location.

IF we are a couple miles out, tolerable weather and seas and no traffic, sure turn on the AP, take time to study the charts, take a pee break and make a sandwich. Not while you are approaching a bridge, harbor, anchorage. I’m not too sure about using the AP in eastern ICW. That all depends on the situation and duration.

Realize I am 80 years old, have a prostate as big as Texas and a bladder the size of Rhode Island so I have a hand held hospital type urinal in the pilot house, just in case.

 

[backinblue]

I've never seen a decent article on adjusting an AP. Would be great if there's one out there

Peter

Hi Peter. A quick google found lots of articles and videos. I haven't looked much deeper than that yet, but some do look useful.

 

[backinblue]

Realize I am 80 years old, have a prostate as big as Texas and a bladder the size of Rhode Island so I have a hand held hospital type urinal in the pilot house, just in case.

On the bright side Dan, at least you still have a prostate!

 

[OldDan1943]

MVweebles, adjusting the AP is brand specific. Look to your documentation or scan the internet for directions.
I have been told the speed response, for a trawler, is set at ‘slow’. No need to overwork the pump.

 

[OldDan1943]

Blacknblue, I really dont want to read about ‘Choices of Adult Diapers’.
Maybe next year. SIGH

 

[MYTraveler]

I agree. If you have to make a quick and sudden change, I'd rather not worry about disengaging the a/p first even if it's quick to do.

I am trying to imagine the circumstance, outside of docking and significant course changes, in which I need to make a quick and sudden change. In every scenario I can imagine, my first move is to use the sticks, not the rudders, which stands to reason because a boat reacts much more quickly to throttles and gears than to rudders. In those circumstances, the rudders (which are centered anyway) become secondary. In fact, when I am coming into my home port on a nice weekend day, there are often, unavoidably, a continuous stream of boats within 50'. At those times, my AP is typically keeping the boat on its heading, but I stand at the helm with my hands on the throttles/gears, ready to respond immediately to whatever boat might fail to understand the rules of the road. If I had to steer, I couldn't respond as quickly with the throttles. All of that said, 5 knots is less than 10' per second, so in every real-world circumstance I have plenty of time to stop my boat before a possible collision.

 

[OldDan1943]

We can stop out boat but what about the other boat.
I recall seeing a video, 2-3 guys, anchored, fishing….. this rather large planning hull boat coming at them, bow in the air…. running over them. I would hope the captain of the other boat notice the collision and stopped to render aid. We will never know.

 

[Portage_Bay]

So I'm to believe that steering is a menial task best left to the a/p and the capt should use all tools at his disposal so that he can focus on the situation and not actually pilot the boat.

Agreed.

However, thrusters are a crutch and a seasoned professional shouldn't use them but rather focus his attention on engines and rudders to get the job done instead of nudging a joystick.

An important difference between use of AP and thruster is the potential for failure. TT in post #88 explains well why APs are generally reliable.

On the other hand battery powered thrusters are subject to tripping out on overheat. When a boater uses the thruster for every close quarters maneuver rather than learning how to handle the boat they set themselves up for failure should wind and or current overpower the thruster. With the only recovery available waiting for the system to cool and reset.

Best to learn how to operate the boat without either tool in order to have skills to handle a failure. And to learn the boat's characteristics to be better able to use the tool.

I'm one who enjoys the challenge of close quarters maneuvering. If the boat has a thruster and I need to use it I won't let pride keep my hands off of the controls. But I will try to get the job done without it to further hone the skills.

 

[mvweebles]

So I'm to believe that steering is a menial task best left to the a/p and the capt should use all tools at his disposal so that he can focus on the situation and not actually pilot the boat.



However, thrusters are a crutch and a seasoned professional shouldn't use them but rather focus his attention on engines and rudders to get the job done instead of nudging a joystick.



Thanks for that enlightenment. Guess I have a lot to learn.

There are stretches of Lake Okeechobee where channel markers are miles apart (see below - USCG markers are 6 miles apart though there are interim markers). Because the northern route (Route 1) crosses the middle of the Lake, there are no land references to tell you when you're in the channel. You're also exposed to wind that wants to push you outside the channel. Hand steering is difficult, at least for me. An autopilot steering a course (NAV vs a bearing - AUTO) makes perfect sense. Right tool for the job. Don't have to spend half your time looking over the stern to see if you've inadvertantly ranged out of the channel.

As far as thrusters, I love them. Certain docking situations are difficult or unsafe without one. Different topic though.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

MVweebles, adjusting the AP is brand specific. Look to your documentation or scan the internet for directions.
I have been told the speed response, for a trawler, is set at ‘slow’. No need to overwork the pump.

The terminology is brand specific, but the basic adjustments are pretty universal.

Peter

 

[Old Sea Dog]

I have a dead Benmar 14. Crossed the O early last Sept. Biggest problem was blind mosquitoes after anchoring south of the Myakka lock entrance. Replacing AP is down the list so hand steering for the next 6-7k miles.
But I do have a functioning bow thruster....... jinx.....

 

[OldDan1943]

The terminology is brand specific, but the basic adjustments are pretty universal.

Peter

Tease
Okay tell me what buttons to press to getting the program mode?

 

[OldDan1943]

I have a dead Benmar 14. Crossed the O early last Sept. Biggest problem was blind mosquitoes after anchoring south of the Myakka lock entrance. Replacing AP is down the list so hand steering for the next 6-7k miles.
But I do have a functioning bow thruster....... jinx.....

You could also tie the wheel in position with a couple of short ropes.

 

[psneeld]

So I'm to believe that steering is a menial task best left to the a/p and the capt should use all tools at his disposal so that he can focus on the situation and not actually pilot the boat.

However, thrusters are a crutch and a seasoned professional shouldn't use them but rather focus his attention on engines and rudders to get the job done instead of nudging a joystick.

Thanks for that enlightenment. Guess I have a lot to learn.

You do have a lot to learn.

I always though that's why I stay on TF, to help others through the process.

Steering is a menial task and is separate from "piloting the boat", you need to learn that right up front.

The old adage in aviation and true of boating to is in order ..."aviate, navigate an communicate" Just staying on course and altitude is usually best done by an autopilot. Same on a boat (assuming you know it's limitations and proper use). Then is navigate (piloting).

As I posted before, larger ships where things get more complicated, usually some very low ranking (but qualified) person steers while the captain or deck offices mantains the rest...and as I said before...for good reason.

When I referred to thrusters is usually where pros do agree that their use should be often or at least as an independent backup to a last minute correction that is doable but difficult without. That means also that you should be able to dock in just about 100% of the situations you are in without them....but most pros will use them just to make sure a vessel they are operating and don't pay for isn't damaged. That's another thing to learn.

Whether it's sarcasm or truly how you feel doesn't really matter...it's important to know where one should be headed in their boating skills level.

I don't care if anyone believes me....though I know some do or at least agree...it's just food for thought and to recommend a lot more research than TF usually provides.

 

[OldDan1943]

I guess if you were out 2 or more miles from shore with little or no traffic around you, you could turn on the radar guarding ring at the desired distance.
Just have to check the charts to make sure you didn’t run into land along the coast. LOL

With my N46, I was comfortable doing a night run ‘outside with the AP, it was rather enjoyable.
I dont see me doing a night run on the ICW.

 

[psneeld]

Black blue and Hippo and a couple more,
I’m glad to see that sarcasm is alive and well in here.


I think we can all agree, decisions are made based upon weather, traffic and and location.

IF we are a couple miles out, tolerable weather and seas and no traffic, sure turn on the AP, take time to study the charts, take a pee break and make a sandwich. Not while you are approaching a bridge, harbor, anchorage. I’m not too sure about using the AP in eastern ICW. That all depends on the situation and duration.

Realize I am 80 years old, have a prostate as big as Texas and a bladder the size of Rhode Island so I have a hand held hospital type urinal in the pilot house, just in case.

Myself and seems like a bunch of others that have posted on TF... use AP on much of the ACIW. I used it with a remote so I could go between the lower helm and the flybridge to lower and raise antennas, check an unknown sound or two, look at dingy lashings or towing rigs, and sometimes just to sit on the bow to watch the dolphins play. Other times just to sit back and relax without leaning forward or standing to man the wheel. I know a lot of commercial boats that install little jog levers so the helmsman can sit back and steer in comfort like using the remote. If I could have done the same, maybe I would use the jog lever more than the AP remote.

Offshore and even not so great weather was a no brainer for using it.

 

[sunchaser]

Good post PSN. In this digital age too many equate all manners of marine electronics with good seamanship. I know of several who spend big $$ for marine electronics while logging few annual miles.

 

[OldDan1943]

Xpsneeld, I THINK the jog alters the course without returning the the course set in the AP.
If you move away from the helm, the boat does not return to the desire course without first returning command to the AP.

Side note: I do believe my 2008 Raymarine AP is a bit old for finding parts for a remote. SHRUG

 

[psneeld]

Xpsneeld, I THINK the jog alters the course without returning the the course set in the AP.
If you move away from the helm, the boat does not return to the desire course without first returning command to the AP.

Side note: I do believe my 2008 Raymarine AP is a bit old for finding parts for a remote. SHRUG

I believe there are 2 kinds of jog levers and not all are even associated with the AP.

Some keep the rudder turned to a set angle (like a normal wheel) and others turn it temporarily and return the rudder to center (a kind I have no experience with).

 

[twistedtree]

I believe there are 2 kinds of jog levers and not all are even associated with the AP.



Some keep the rudder turned to a set angle (like a normal wheel) and others turn it temporarily and return the rudder to center (a kind I have no experience with).

Sort of. The terminology isn’t mine, but here goes.

A “full follow up”, or FFU acts like a steering wheel. It can be a wheel or a knob or a lever. If you turn it to a certain rudder angle, the rudder turns to that commanded angle. If you let go of the control, it stays where you left it, as does the rudder position. It is completely blind to what the boat is doing, and is just a simple commanded rudder angle that is held until changed. It commands rudder position. The advantage is that such a control is easy and intuitive to use. You just dial in the rudder position you want, and the steering system makes it so. The down side is that it’s a more complicated system with a rudder position feedback and smarts to move the rudder to the commanded angle.

A “non flow up”, or NFU, or “Jog lever” commands rudder movement, not rudder position. They seem to always be levers, but could be otherwise. When you deflect the control in one direction, it commands rudder movement in that direction. The longer you hold it deflected, the more the rudder turns right up until it hits its stops. When you release the lever, it is spring loaded and returns to the center off position, and rudder movement stops. The rudder stays in whatever position it was in when you let go of the lever. If you deflect the lever in the other direction, the rudder moves that way until you let go. So the operator is using the stick to move the rudder to a desired angle, then leaving it there as long as desired. The advantage is that it’s a super simple system, and only requires a steering pump that can be turned on and off in each direction. No AP smarts are required. The down side it that you need to keep track of where the rudder is, and manually control movements to get it where you want it.

 

[OldDan1943]

My Raymarine AP has +1, -1, +10, -10 buttons. Like the jog lever that does not return to the course.

 

[ScottC]

I have enjoyed my Raymarine SPX10 AP since 2010 and continue to use it whenever possible and prudent. I calibrate it at the beginning of every season and after that, just push the button and go. Sometimes, I have it track. I have the S100 remote with a dodge function. I have apparently been operating in blissful ignorance of AP sophistication and complexities all these years. This has been a very educational thread!

As far as thrusters are concerned: I have a bow thruster and a stern thruster. I view each docking/locking situation as a challenge to see just how well I can manage the helm without using them. I only call upon their assistance when absolutely necessary. An exception would be when I want to "spin on a dime" to turn around in a very tight marina.

 

[OldDan1943]

ScottC on your Raymarine AP, where did you find the model number?

 

[ScottC]

The AP is SP (for SmartPilot) X10. It's on the front of the central AP unit.
My control head is the (now vintage) ST 6002. If you're asking about the hydraulic unit, I don't have that info with me, but can send it after I arrive at my boat in a couple of weeks. It's and Italian manufacturer and was installed by the manufacturer of my boat from the beginning.

 

[OldDan1943]

The AP is SP (for SmartPilot) X10. It's on the front of the central AP unit.
My control head is the (now vintage) ST 6002. If you're asking about the hydraulic unit, I don't have that info with me, but can send it after I arrive at my boat in a couple of weeks. It's and Italian manufacturer and was installed by the manufacturer of my boat from the beginning.

Thanks for the picture. I have pretty good idea where it is located.
My control head appears to be the same on the outside.
Thanks Sciott.

Update: Not where I thought.

 

[Hippocampus]

Earlier went down the AICW. Started in RI but AICW from Norfolk on down. Now going up the AICW. 95+% on the time on AP.

I’m still a newbie. My boat is ~45’ loa with the freedom lift. It likes to do back and fill to starboard but not to port so much. Bow blows off in a cross breeze. In a 50’ fairway I don’t have the skills to reliably turn the boat 180 degrees without thruster help. I can “parallel park” and get in/out of a slip without them depending upon how much current there is. Saying you should be able to do everything without thrusters in all situations on a single screw boat is well above my pay grade. Maybe situations where it’s not needed will expand but I seriously doubt all will go away.

 

[ScottC]

In a 50’ fairway I don’t have the skills to reliably turn the boat 180 degrees without thruster help.

Don't mean to insult, if you already know, but I'll share a tip that I learned probably FIVE years into owning my single-screw boat (which has a very small rudder.)
If you want to do a 180 to port, for example, without the aid of a thruster. Put the helm all the way over to port and GUN IT for about 2 seconds only and then neutral. Then repeat. With this strategy, you get a lot of turn, with hardly any forward motion.