Nordhavn runs aground Ocean Reef

[Hippocampus]

All great suggestions. As Peter says maybe a blown day. Other confounder is there’s a lock ahead which now opens only every 2 hours.
Intend to do pretty much what Peter says. I’m faced the wrong way for travel having gone in against the current. Intend o run parallel to all the boats before attempting to turn around. Then back/fill to starboard. Only modification is to set up a spring from midship to forward as the last attached line . Should help take the boat behind me out of the equation. This morning I have 10kts of wind on my stern but the bow thruster is new and should be able to kick me out. I’m worried about the pilings hitting the Rigid dinghy. So wait until a dock hand shows up and tells me when and if the current drops. Looks much less this morning. Ideally do this at slack. Also although we usually don’t need dockhands once we loop lines around pilings and bring them back to the boat. This time want a strong body pushing my stern off.

No question PSN could communicate a font of knowledge. Only saying imho he would be more effective teacher losing the abrasiveness. Been dressed down by folks who are professionals at it. May serve to motivate you (or pack up your bags and leave). But the learning doesn’t usually occur during the dressing down. That happens by yourself or the supportive help of others. That style works just fine in military settings. No choice but to “sir yes sir”. No opportunity to leave. This is casual voluntary web site.

[Old Sea Dog]

Originally Posted by OldDan1943

You could also tie the wheel in position with a couple of short ropes.

Yep. Loose enough wrap that when I run below I can still steer to avoid.
Old Benmar to starboard of helm.

[oguidry]

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Right now in Coinjock. Just watched. 55-60’er with one person on board stay motionless in the middle of the channel while a large KK docked. Boat didn’t move an inch as he walked around and set up lines. Probably aliasing props. Made bubbles to suggest twins and stern/bow thrusters. Then turned 180 to get parallel to his open place on the dock and docked. Then left the helm to throw lines. This all occurred with a knot and half to 2 knots running.

My boat is a Sabre 38 with Volvo Penta IPS pods, Garmin AP and a function called "Assisted Docking".

Somewhere in the boat there is a computer that tells the pods what to do based on input from the AP, joystick, wheel, and an accurate GPS antenna.

In Assisted Docking mode, the boat will maintain its position regardless of wind and current (obviously within reason). Manipulating the joy stick will cause it to pivot in position either continuously or in 4 degree increments. It will move forward or sideways either continuously or in 0.5 meter increments. Once along a dock it can be put in Side Power mode and it will push against the dock and not move.

I know that this seems like "cheating" but it allows me to leave my slip and return alone with much less concern for the conditions. The boat mentioned in the quote likely had Assisted Docking or something similar.

[rslifkin]

With thrusters, I don't think they're automatically a crutch, but some people use them as one. They rely heavily on the thrusters without ever getting an understanding of how the boat moves (I have the same complaint about joystick controls). In my mind, you learn to control the boat, then you add in the thrusters to make it do things you can't otherwise do easily or at all.

As far as spinning a boat with a single, if you turn opposite of the prop walk in reverse, you can get most singles to spin. If it walks to port in reverse, it'll only spin to stbd. Rudder hard to stbd and alternate fwd/rev, shifting frequently enough to keep the boat from moving forward or backward any meaningful amount. That should produce a reasonable spin on most boats, as you're alternating between pushing the stern over with prop wash and the rudder and then pulling it further over with prop walk in reverse.


In certain situations, like the strong current Weebles mentioned, the minimum space around you required to maneuver out increases. If the space isn't available, you may have to wait for better conditions. Same story with strong wind, depending on wind direction. And you're not going to be doing it solo, as you need to be on the controls already when the last line is dropped.

I wouldn't try to back out into a strong current with a single, but with twins, it's possible depending on what's around you and the exact angle of the current to the dock. If the current isn't pushing you away from the dock and you've got some space behind you, you may be best off peeling the stern off the dock (use a spring to help if needed) and quickly backing away at however much angle is required to clear boats behind you (the current will push you along the dock as you do this, hence needing space behind). Or you can kick the bow off the dock a bit (which depending on the boat and geometry limitations like davits can be a challenge), let the current start to pivot you, then power forward out of the spot.

I absolutely agree that a 3 kt current would make any of those maneuvers a bit hairy. I'd be much more comfortable getting onto a face dock aimed into that current than I would be departing in that current.

[Portage_Bay]

Excellent post especially this first paragraph.

Originally Posted by rslifkin

With thrusters, I don't think they're automatically a crutch, but some people use them as one. They rely heavily on the thrusters without ever getting an understanding of how the boat moves (I have the same complaint about joystick controls). In my mind, you learn to control the boat, then you add in the thrusters to make it do things you can't otherwise do easily or at all.

I will comment that learning how to handle your boat backing in a variety of conditions and for some distance adds a very valuable tool to your kit. Once comfortable with the technique you can often avoid trying to trun 180 degrees in tight or challenging situation. Just don't try to learn the skills in tight quarters or challenging situations.

Time is important. Don't let it be your enemy. We're mostly recreational boaters here, retired pros or not. Waiting for conditions to improve is usually just a matter of patience.

We saw a perfect example of failure to exercise patience last week. It happened at James Island Marine Park in the San Juans. For those not familiar with the dock a couple of pics attached.

We were sided tied bow out on the outer end. Inshore of us was what looked to be a Monk 36, or something quite similar, side tied bow in clear at the inshore end of the dock. Both tied on the side with the pilings. Watching him maneuver I'm saying a single with no thruster. The tide was running strong that morning pinning our boat and theirs against the dock. I don't know how fast, no way to measure it, I'm guessing 2+ knots, likely more. In other words a very challenging situation for the Monk.

We both started preparing to get underway about the same time, him a few minutes ahead of us. And here's where is lack of patience bit him in the backside. He chose not to wait for us to move and tried to depart. That was his first error in judgement.

His second was to attempt to depart going forward. This meant trying to spring the bow out without damaging the swim step and RIB mounted on the swim step. And pull that off in very close quarters. He hooked the bow of his RIB on the pilings and ripped it loose. I don't know what failed, attachment on the RIB or mount on the swim step, but now it's hanging in the water. And to make matters worse the snagging of the rib swung his bow towards the foot ramp overpass. He did mange to avoid the bow going under the overpass but still insisted on moving forward rather than backing, now his stern and nearly his fly bridge are under the overpass before he fully recovers and maneuvers away.

Had he simply given us a few minutes more time to depart he could have walked his boat to the outer end of the dock then from there easily backed out. That in my opinion is fact.

After the incident armchair analysis notes had he used the 128' dock with our 45' on the offshore end and his 36' on the inshore end leaving something on the order of 40+ ft between us he could have used a spring line to get the stern out then back with enthusiasm ti get clear of us. A dicey choice of course but better than trying to depart bow first and having to turn 180 degrees in tight quarters with current against him.

Back to part of the thread drift, thrusters. Would a thruster have helped? Maybe. Maybe not. They are too likely to trip out when worked hard.

I will give he and his crew credit for how they handled the situation. No screaming and yelling. A simple loud call out from the couple on the stern the RIB was about to hit, then trying to contain it. As soon as he was clear of the overpass and nearly lined up to leave his wife went to the flybirdge to complete the departure so he could head to the cockpit and assist with securing the RIB.

[Hippocampus]

Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa

[Portage_Bay]

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa

I realize after the fact I could have and should have walked back to them and said we'd be underway in less than 10 minutes. Maybe they would have waited unitl we departed.

[guy with a boat]

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa

That was the right answer to your situation. Any departure with 3kts of current and 3’ of clearance on each end would involve more risk than necessary. Moving one of the other boats (or asking for them to be moved) or waiting it out were both better options.

Glad it worked out.

[slowgoesit]

Portage Bay,
James Island is a beautiful location! And the new dock is great . . . . but as stated, the current can be a real bugaboo there.

Similar situation for us. We were starboard side tie, bow in, closest to the ramp, wind was pushing us on dock. Current was pushing us off dock . . . I thought the wind was stronger . . . Oh, and there's that rock off the port bow about 50' or so . . . . And it was 0400, pitch black, no moon, but we were departing to make the passage South with the current.
Boat behind us on the dock, and two boats on the other side of the dock as well. We eased off the dock, wife undid the bow line from the dock, went to the stern, undid the stern, but didn't have a chance to get on swimstep . . . . so she's on the dock, boat was off dock, swiveled to port, and got off the dock . . . . with wife still on dock . . . . Yeah, I'm going to stop right there,

[Portage_Bay]

slowgoesit, I too have been humbled at James Island. So far the only damage was to my ego.

Regarding your story I witnessed a similar situation at Coupeville in the darkness during a winter storm. We were approaching and saw a small sail boat circling off the end. Approach then head off. Rinse and repeat. We timed it right and got in OK. The mate jumped off to find out what had happened. They had been getting bashed on the windward side and tried to shift to the leeward side. He was left on the dock, she on the boat with no skills at handling the boat. Oops. The mate from my boat, a very patient man with a loud voice and a good boat handler and a good teacher talked her into the dock. It took several passes but eventually she made it in with no damage.

[Adopo]

Still wondering about the exact cause, here is something from a blog...

https://www.poweryachtblog.com/2023/...f-florida.html
A 24 meter Nordhavn super yacht titled m/y Jess Jonn ran aground in Ocean Reef on the Florida Keys to the Southern part of Miami on May eight. The causes of the grounding are not confirmed, though in some forums and people knowledgeable of the area are suggesting then when tide is on the low side of things it is suggested you stay on your port side pushing to the red markers in that channel. Another unconfirmed rumour is that the owner was operating the yacht at the time of the accident. Thankfully the grounding seems to have made little or no damage to M/y Jess Conn as she was reported back underway on the 14th May heading North.
M/y Jess Conn is hull one of the Nordhavn 80 which launched in 2021. A design of Vripack the Nordhavn 80 was presented as a project in 2017 filling the gap between the N76 and N86 models, with a three double cabins six berth guest accommodation and two or four crew berths layout, and is powered by twin Deere 375hp. Nordhavn has so far sold five N80 units.

[Adopo]

Here is an excellent blog here on running aground. Beautiful yacht, now in a yard according to YF.

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/h...t-assisted-e72

[Hippocampus]

Interesting stories. Thanks for the link. Navigating is a VMG (velocity made good) calculation when racing but shouldn’t be the dominant thinking when cruising. When I had delivery captains as crew found it important to stress this point with them. Explained they were unpaid crew and if they didn’t want to face the extra time and therefore potential loss of income involved in minimizing risks they shouldn’t sign on the boat. You read those stories and think they were trying to make tracts. Trying to get the best VMG . Yup the hard edges are dangerous.

[twistedtree]

Stories. That's what they are, just stories. A bunch of speculative, made up crap. These is so much to learn from incidents like these, but only if you have strong factual info. Unless it's clear that an AP failure of some sort caused the problem, he should STFU. Someone misusing an AP (and we don't know if that was the case either) is a Captain-assisted mishap, not an AP-assisted mishap. Trash journalism at it's finest.

[Art]

Accidents happen... thus the root word "accident"!

Little boat accident$ u$ually eat up relativity little ca$h $um$. Bigger boat accident$ u$ually eat up relativity big ca$h $um$. Bigger boat owners need bigger wallet$. All boat owners better have plenty in$$$$urance!

[psneeld]

The military has studied and decided that accidents are mostly preventable by human factor integration...meaning from design to operator use .....machinery is rarely the root cause.

Things as simple as poorly labled or poorly designed switches, placement , etc are just as bad as operatot error.

The military avoids the word "accident" favoring "mishap" because it is hoped that most are prevetable with proper investigation and remedies applied.

Its why I am often one pointing out all the jumping to conclusions on TF.

[Hippocampus]

Personally think people FU and things break. Agree with TT. We can learn from “stories “. We can learn more if more facts are included. Agree with PS engineers often don’t do the activity so add “features” you rarely if ever use. Or don’t place the “features” you frequently use as the most accessible. Or don’t adequately assess the machine user interface. Or don’t provide comfortable ergonomics leading to user fatigue.
Of interest a friend is an engineer who designs autonomous cars. One of the main drivers of this field he told me is insurance companies. The insurance industry figures accidents will decrease and their profits increase the more you take the human out of the equation. Apparently when the field is mature we may even see our policy costs go down.
Still I enjoy driving. Both on pavement and off just cruising around I don’t know where I’ll go until I get there. Even worst off road.

[OldDan1943]

Hippo, I dont see insurance rates ever going down. The effect will be increased profits and pay.

If AI is going to be the ‘savior’, let’s put it on the boats now.

[Fletcher500]

The Author of the stories in post #152 is active on social media and often battling with people on various topics. Personally, I think the chest thumpers on forums and social media remind me of the guy in the bar who is talking too loud and wont shut up. Less, is often more. BTW, I also use my AP in Auto, not Nav mode to steer in channels.

[Hippocampus]

Some activities are require active involvement and it’s that involvement that contributes to making them fun. See no issue with autonomous ships if that can be done without incurring risk to boats and other ships. But for boats (even those on AP 95+% of the time) taking piloting out of the experience makes you live lumber and decreases the enjoyment in my view. Same for driving a car, flying an airplane or hot air balloon.

AI will likely get to a point it can do a better job than humans. Still it’s satisfying at some level helming in difficult seas or docking in unfavorable conditions. Have no issue with AI overriding human input when that input would lead to catastrophe or when the human doesn’t want to do it. But would miss the activity and would be concerned my skills would atrophy. That would make me vulnerable should the AI fail such as after a lightning strike or electrical failure. Occasionally both the bride and I turn off the gps in our cars. As confirmed by studies the constant use of gps (and I assume electronic charting) dependence caused our skills to atrophy. Think the same would occur with boating.

Some of the most satisfying boating experiences for me was to learn celestial and to be able to get from Marion to Bermuda time and again with no electronic aid. For awhile our Navy dropped celestial from the course curriculum only to put it back. Beyond making you functional after an electromagnetic burst it gives you a visceral understanding of your place on the world.

See my kids and grandkids processing differently than me. To some extent they are passive viewers of the world and not a integral part of their environment. They don’t hunt or fish the way I do. Look at the fish finder not the water or birds. Don’t read a stream or current or drop off. Don’t read sign. Don’t walk the woods throughout the year to understand the deers life and likely behavior.

Think something is lost as we turn over our skills to machines.