I lost my steering

[RickyD]

So its a beautiful day, no wind, no waves, perfect for a putt putt around the harbor. So I decide to take a short cruise to see some friends in a neighboring marina. Alamitos Bay where there is a long narrow channel protected by breakwaters on both sides. Playing with my new Furuno electronics, I set a waypoint in front of the channel, told the system to go there an off we went, me and a pal. As I hit the waypoint, I turned into the channel and went about 150 yards and then realized I had lost my steering. So, ok I put the port engine in reverse and starboard forward. Well, I wasn't really twisting as expected, but I got turned a bit, port neutral, forward stbd and now I'm turning back to stbd. The rudders must have turned. So I keep messing with port, stbd, forward, reverse and I end up out of the channel. Yes I have a bow thruster but I tried to deal with the situation without it. In the mean time I had broadcast a warning to other boats and had spoken with the Lifeguard Boat. Now that I have cleared the channel I was ready to dive into the problem. You see, for the last couple years I have noted that the pressure in my steering hydraulic system has been sloooowly dropping. I kept telling myself, soon I was going to get out my bicycle pump and refill and repressurize the system. So I had a pretty good idea what may have gone wrong. Then my buddy said "why don't you try the down helm". Well I did and it worked so I drove her back to our dock. Refilled, repressurized, and tested the fix. I hope I learned my lesson.

 

[Comodave]

Do you have a slow leak?

 

[markpierce]

Not so long ago experienced difficulties steering with hydraulics. Slow/tiny leak. Difficult steering within 40 degrees of desired course. Rudder-angle reading was also screwy. Several boat dollars $$$$ fixed it.

 

[RickyD]

Do you have a slow leak?

I have not seen any fluid in the bilge. I assume everyone needs to occasionally refill. Does anyone not need to ever add fluid? I last added some in 2018.

 

[koliver]

I have not seen any fluid in the bilge. I assume everyone needs to occasionally refill. Does anyone not need to ever add fluid? I last added some in 2018.

It doesn't evaporate, so has to go somewhere. check the floor under the upper helm pump. That is where there may be a vent or filler opening in the system.
If you use ATF it is red oily stuff. If you use 10 weight hydroulic oil is is yellowish, oily stuff.

 

[Comodave]

I have not seen any fluid in the bilge. I assume everyone needs to occasionally refill. Does anyone not need to ever add fluid? I last added some in 2018.

Yes, if it is loosing fluid it is leaking somewhere. We had a center console that would loose hydraulic fluid. Took it to a local shop and asked them to fix it. They basically filled it up and billed 4 hours labor. So I decided to find the problem. It was the steering cylinder leaking. Sent it off for rebuild and after I put it back on the problem was gone. Your problem may get worse suddenly or may just be an inconvenience forever. No way of knowing but as said before the hydraulic fluid does not evaporate so you have a leak.

 

[Gdavid]

I would be looking at the upper helm shaft and the steering cylinder as two of the most likely sources of leaks. Obviously a leak can occur anywhere in the system but the shaft seal on a flybridge is frequently subject to the weather and/or UV light damage. The inner helm usually has an easier life. Finding the leaks at the steering cylinder can be aided by placing some paper towels under it, especially if you are using ATF as your fluid.

 

[tiltrider1]

Went 20 years with never adding fluid or air pressure on the old boat. The current boat, not so lucky.

 

[OldDan1943]

Too bad there is not a sight glass. SHRUG

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I found out that I had a leak on the first day. Moved from the broker's dock to my new moorage (5 hour cruise) and lost steering as I entered the marina. I later learned that it was only on the upper helm, but that's where I was. Really made a great impression on my new dock mates. I was able to use prop walk to get in. Both the surveyor and I had seen evidence of a leak, but didn't know it was that active. Would have been nice if the prior owner had mentioned it.

I now realize that is why the PO used the autopilot so much (he did mention that). My Simrad has the ability to steer using a little wheel on the AP control. That puts no pressure on the Wagner helm stations and they don't lose oil. Not a long term solution for me, but nice to know that there is a backup. Also, the lower station generally still works.

The leaking hydraulic oil is noticeable, but not as much as I would have thought. It can follow along a hydraulic line or electric wire and drop some distance from where you would expect. Wood can absorb it for a long time. It wipes off fiberglass easily, which was apparently my PO's solution to the problem.

I bought a complete o-ring kit, but haven't haven't decided which station to rebuild first. I'm starting to think that the lower station is the main culprit despite the upper station being the one that fails. When I started the project, the first thing I noticed was that one of the hydraulic cover plates on the lower helm had a fracture in it. Looked like the PO had over-tightened it. I was lucky to find a local shop that had used parts, so I bought two plates. That has me only needing to fill every 100 hours.

Just what I needed was to be reminded of another project. Merry Christmas to me.

 

[OldDan1943]

Maybe
Rebuild the lower station .... rational ...... leak at the lower station drains away from the upper station?
Maybe the new/used plates will cure the leakage?
Give consideration to rebuilding both rams if there is signs of leakage.

 

[Bustlebomb]

Ricky,

What type of system is it? Are you sure you needed to add fluid or could it have just been air pressure?

Mine is a Hynautic system and there are sight glasses on the reservoir that allow me to see the fluid level. I too have had to pump mine up (once about 18 months into my eight years of ownership) It seems the only loss in my case was air pressure as I've never seen the fluid level change and I see no evidence of leakage. Before the pump up, I also lost steering at the upper helm.

I have no idea when the system was last pressurized prior to my ownership. I do know the hydraulic lines were originally copper (the old lines are still there but crimped over at the ends) but have been replaced with flexible hydraulic lines at some point in the past.

 

[wkearney99]

If a fitting isn't tight, then it's LOOSE. That could cause you to LOSE fluid.

Check everywhere there's a steering component, at some point you'll find the leak. As others have suggested, it doesn't evaporate. There's going to be signs of a leak on some part of the system. There are additives that can be used to help find leaks with a UV light. But the red or yellow of most fluids used for steering is usually indicator enough.

 

[bglad]

Thirty-year-old Schraeder valve on the reservoir may be bad. Might check it for leakage. A cap with an O-ring on it could help too.

I think keeping the oil level in the middle of the reservoir would be helpful too. Greater volume of air would give you more time between recharging.

Best plan is to find the leak...

I have not seen any fluid in the bilge. I assume everyone needs to occasionally refill. Does anyone not need to ever add fluid? I last added some in 2018.

 

[Shrew]

.... Playing with my new Furuno electronics, I set a waypoint in front of the channel, told the system to go there an off we went, me and a pal.

I'm going to guess that your new electronics involved a new auto-pilot?

If so, after installing the new auto-pilot steering pump, you need to bleed and fill your steering fluid. My electronics guy didn't do mine either, but at least he told me that it needed to be done.

 

[RickyD]

Well, thank you all for your helpful insights. My system is a Hynautic. Yes it has sight glasses along the side but they are spaced in such a way that it can look like you have plenty of oil when you don't. Normally they just look black to me. When I checked it after the event I could see a little daylight above the min. line. Yesterday I went back to the boat to look for a leak and I believe I found it. So here is more story: I bought her in 2018. My hydraulic pump had a leak. The guy I was using for a plumber/mechanic said "when those pumps start to leak its best to replace them". So we did. But in taking out the old one he found that there was a loose fitting. I put the new pump in anyway. Now looking under that pump, I can see some staining that looks like oil drips that just collected dirt rather than running with my slight port list. I need to tighten up those connections. Its good to know that if all is tight, I should not need to add oil.

I did not find any oil at the upper helm and I did not replace the pump and cylinder with the new Furuno AP. I did take a photo of the directions on the oil reservoir. When I can get my face down there I can't read it but the pictures really helped. When I go back I'll follow the bleeding procedures.

 

[Comodave]

As suggested above put some UV dye into the fluid and run it for a while. You should be able to see any leaks with the black light.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I've learned my way around a new to me but 1983 vintage Hynautic system. Attached is a Hynautic manual. The same instructions found on the reservoir label as well as bleeding instructions will be found in the manual. Bleeding a Hynautic system is quite easy.

Do not tolerate leaks in any hydraulic steering system. With Hynautic air leaks are not to be tolerated either. As you've learned a loss of steering is no fun.

To see the oil level in the reservior use a small flashlight, very easy to determine the oil level.

When it comes time to add oil I recommend you do not use regular hydraulic or ATF. Seastar sells the proper oil but it must be in gold plated bottles for the price they are asking. You'll find in the manual that H5606 aircraft hydraulic oil is fine. Some experts say it is the same oil. I found it at a local aircraft service shop. They sell it in two different containers. A non-resealable quart, it's quite expensive. And a gallon can at a much lower price. According to the aircraft tech it is the same oil, the quart cans to be used in critical systems and the extra discarded. With the gallons it's up to you to keep it clean. There will be a letter after the H5606 denoting if it is single use or not. I don't remember which is which.

If you're going to go the alternate route of regular hydraulic oil or ATF use hydraulic oil. In the manual you'll find Hynautic says ATF is to be used in an emergency only. Potential damage to the components.

One more thought. If techs not familiar with Hynautic have been working on the system meaning you have no idea of the fluids they used it may be time for a drain, flush and re-fill. A messy time consuming job but not technically challenging.

 

[RickyD]

I've learned my way around a new to me but 1983 vintage Hynautic system. Attached is a Hynautic manual. The same instructions found on the reservoir label as well as bleeding instructions will be found in the manual. Bleeding a Hynautic system is quite easy.

Do not tolerate leaks in any hydraulic steering system. With Hynautic air leaks are not to be tolerated either. As you've learned a loss of steering is no fun.

To see the oil level in the reservior use a small flashlight, very easy to determine the oil level.

When it comes time to add oil I recommend you do not use regular hydraulic or ATF. Seastar sells the proper oil but it must be in gold plated bottles for the price they are asking. You'll find in the manual that H5606 aircraft hydraulic oil is fine. Some experts say it is the same oil. I found it at a local aircraft service shop. They sell it in two different containers. A non-resealable quart, it's quite expensive. And a gallon can at a much lower price. According to the aircraft tech it is the same oil, the quart cans to be used in critical systems and the extra discarded. With the gallons it's up to you to keep it clean. There will be a letter after the H5606 denoting if it is single use or not. I don't remember which is which.

If you're going to go the alternate route of regular hydraulic oil or ATF use hydraulic oil. In the manual you'll find Hynautic says ATF is to be used in an emergency only. Potential damage to the components.

One more thought. If techs not familiar with Hynautic have been working on the system meaning you have no idea of the fluids they used it may be time for a drain, flush and re-fill. A messy time consuming job but not technically challenging.

Thank you for the manual. Funny how many typos are in that manual. DOCK is WCK. Funny. My PO had several QT of ATF aboard so that is what I figured was correct for the steering system. Now having read the manual I see that ISO 15 is spec'd. Stiff steering may result with ATF but it did not mention damage. West Marine has QT bottles of #15 for $22. Also, Amazon 1 liter at $14. Thanks again for your thoughtful post.

 

[kapnd]

I’ve found uv dyes to be useless in troubleshooting hydraulic steering systems, as the hydraulic fluid never really circulates and mixes, it more or less just moves back and forth a bit in relation to the capacity of the ram.
You add the dye at the reservoir, and thats where it stays, unless there is a substantial leak somewhere, in which case, you’d already have located it.
In draining old systems that had a variety of different colored oils added to them over the years, they drained out in their different colors.
I’ve also drained out some serious debris caused by years of friction in the pumps and cylinders, a good deal of water, and some milling debris, so flushing does have its place in the maintenance schedule, especially if you’re not aware of its history.

 

[Nick F]

It is possible that there was no oil leak, but simply a loss of air pressure.

Without the air pressure the pump at the top of the system (the upper helm pump) might pull a vacuum instead of pulling oil into its chambers. I believe that this is why some of these systems apply an air pressure cushion over the oil.

Have you ever tried to fill a medical syringe and seen how easy it is to pull a vacuum?

Just a thought,
Nick

 

[slowgoesit]

Most boats with hydraulic steering, and upper and lower stations manifest the problems in the upper station first, because of, well, gravity. The leak reduces the oil available to the entire system, and the air migrates up, oil stays down, (for the most part) so it's usually the upper station that has problems first, as demonstrated by several posters above. Doesn't necessarily mean that the upper station is where the leak is though. That's the point of my long winded post. A leak lower down will almost always manifest itself at the upper station first!