He crashed my boat

[SILENTKNIGHT]

Captain -delivery taking my boat up north. He was in St Augustine dock and the stern thruster failed . He lost control and hit a 66 ' Trinity sailboat. Should he pay something? half? or do i just put through my coverage.

dent on tubing starbd pulpit
starbd 2 scratches above the water line.

I was told the boat will have to come out of water ?

 

[psneeld]

My quick and dirty.....thats what you have insurance for if the captain didn't. Then I would expect him to pay my deductible.

Hope you get your answer.... but will be surprised if this doesn't deteriorate into a thruster argument thread.

 

[mvweebles]

You're on the hook for it all. Not sure what theory would have your skippers obligated to pay deductible unless he was negligent. Accidents do happen.

 

[psneeld]

Something like 80% of most accidents are caused by human error/factors.

I know if I damaged someone's boat and it was something as simple as a thruster failure at a decent marina....for my reputation I would offer to pay the deductible. Not the whole thing because that's what hull insurance is for.

But true that damage only to the vessel is covered under the vessels hull insurance as long as the captain was OK with the vessels insurance policy.

 

[smitty477]

When do you think you will have a total for the 66' sailboat?
I would want that known for any insurance and/or liability forward.

Also note - a licensed captain should have made a report at the time of the accident. Do you have a copy?

 

[mvweebles]

I never had an insurance claim in 5 years of full time delivery work. But let's be fair. You're operating in largely unfamiliar surroundings and sometimes in slightly compromised weather due to a schedule. Closest I came to an insurance claim was when I was directed to a side tie in Astoria OR. I was delivering a 65 footer in strong cross winds. I needed to spin the boat in a space that was mostly designed for 40 foot boats. The thruster would not bring the bow through the wind and I came damn close to swinging the bow pulpit into the small house on the fuel dock.

I've caused some minor damage, most regrettable was breaking the latch on a microwave oven door on a new boat in heavy seas. I discounted my fees a big, though owner tried to refuse.

Sorry, owner is on the hook for this one. Skipper may offer a show of good faith, but is under zero obligation as long as they showed reasonable efforts and was not negligent.

Peter

Something like 80% of most accidents are caused by human error/factors.

I know if I damaged someone's boat and it was something as simple as a thruster failure at a decent marina....for my reputation I would offer to pay the deductible. Not the whole thing because that's what hull insurance is for.

But true that damage only to the vessel is covered under the vessels hull insurance as long as the captain was OK with the vessels insurance policy.

 

[smitty477]

I never had an insurance claim in 5 years of full time delivery work. But let's be fair. You're operating in largely unfamiliar surroundings and sometimes in slightly compromised weather due to a schedule. Closest I came to an insurance claim was when I was directed to a side tie in Astoria OR. I was delivering a 65 footer in strong cross winds. I needed to spin the boat in a space that was mostly designed for 40 foot boats. The thruster would not bring the bow through the wind and I came damn close to swinging the bow pulpit into the small house on the fuel dock.

I've caused some minor damage, most regrettable was breaking the latch on a microwave oven door on a new boat in heavy seas. I discounted my fees a big, though owner tried to refuse.

Sorry, owner is on the hook for this one. Skipper may offer a show of good faith, but is under zero obligation as long as they showed reasonable efforts and was not negligent.

Peter

"Sorry, owner is on the hook for this one."
Hard to say without additional details and an independent report.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I think you will have to cover the cost of repair, or at least the deductible.

You would thing an experienced captain would know the old idiom, "Crash Slow"

pete

 

[smitty477]

I think you will have to cover the cost of repair, or at least the deductible.

You would thing an experienced captain would know the old idiom, "Crash Slow"

pete

Were there any other witnesses to confirm the few details we have so far? Was the other boat owner present and what was his viewpoint? What were the conditions (day/night, wind, tides,rain,etc) at the time of the accident? How sigificant was the damage to the other boat? Could any other boat or structure have been struck at the same time? Was there a report taken given there was a two boat accident with a licensed captain? What does that report say in detail?
Too many pieces of information left out at this time for good feedback.

 

[SteveK]

dent on tubing starbd pulpit
starbd 2 scratches above the water line.

I was told the boat will have to come out of water ?

**** happens. It does not look like that bad, maybe few $thousand.

So, You hire a captain with experience to deliver your boat safely because you cannot but you have to foot the deductible. Don't Captains carry a liability insurance just for this event?

 

[rgano]

Did the insurance company have knowledge aforehand of this delivery and who was to be captain?

 

[ancora]

Something tells me the "delivery captain" ain't much of a boat handler if he depended on a thruster.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I never had an insurance claim in 5 years of full time delivery work. But let's be fair. You're operating in largely unfamiliar surroundings and sometimes in slightly compromised weather due to a schedule. Closest I came to an insurance claim was when I was directed to a side tie in Astoria OR. I was delivering a 65 footer in strong cross winds. I needed to spin the boat in a space that was mostly designed for 40 foot boats. The thruster would not bring the bow through the wind and I came damn close to swinging the bow pulpit into the small house on the fuel dock.

I've caused some minor damage, most regrettable was breaking the latch on a microwave oven door on a new boat in heavy seas. I discounted my fees a big, though owner tried to refuse.

Sorry, owner is on the hook for this one. Skipper may offer a show of good faith, but is under zero obligation as long as they showed reasonable efforts and was not negligent.

Peter

Hey Pete,

As a captain isn't there a delivery document that both you and the owner signs? Not sure but would there not be a clause stating the Captain is NOT responsible for any damage?

 

[mvweebles]

**** happens. It does not look like that bad, maybe few $thousand.

So, You hire a captain with experience to deliver your boat safely because you cannot but you have to foot the deductible. Don't Captains carry a liability insurance just for this event?

There is no practical way for a delivery captain to carry this type of liability insurance. One day you're delivering a brand new $2m boat, next day you're moving a used 37-foot Taiwan Trawler worth $100k on a good day.

In the end, the customary arrangement is the owner assumes liability. You can go after the captain if there is at least negligence, and certainly if there is gross negligence (though that is a really, really high bar). The deductible on something like this can reach into the several thousands of dollars. If anyone things they can hire someone for $400/day and stick them with liability for a boat, well, that's just not reasonable.

As far as not having all the facts, true. But I have caveated every one of my statements saying that unless the skipper were negligent.....blah/blah.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Hey Pete,

As a captain isn't there a delivery document that both you and the owner signs? Not sure but would there not be a clause stating the Captain is NOT responsible for any damage?

I ALWAYS had a delivery contract. It stated owner provided insurance and was responsible for all costs. For long repositioning runs that crossed insurance jurisdictions, the owner would present my bona fides to their insurer. For international runs, this contract was important to present to customs/immigration officials so I usually had it notarized so it had a big/fat stamp on it.

Deliveries can get a bit complicated as far as contracts and commercial arrangements. If you think about it, if you're on a month-long delivery, how does an owner fund a delivery? Pretty easy to take-on $4k in fuel - gotta pay for it someway. I can tell you as a delivery skipper, I wasn't able to advance that type of dough.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

In the end, the customary arrangement is the owner assumes liability. You can go after the captain if there is at least negligence, and certainly if there is gross negligence (though that is a really, really high bar)

Negligence, if proven is something that I would expect you to carry insurance for. I doubt any contract that absolves for negligence between a captain and the owner would stand up in court. Never having had to consider this I defer to those that are captains for delivery. If you say no liability for delivery captain, then so be it. caveat emptor.

 

[psneeld]

In the US at least, I have read that law prevents the delivery captain from having insurance to pay for hull damage under normal circumstances...thus how marinas also have similar protection. There is liability insurance for captains for a variety of different scenarios that I am sure have plenty of exclusions.


But that is what the courts of law are for....when it doubt, let them sort it out. Unfortunately nothing may be ultimately resolved and a huge amount of time an money has been gambled on some sort of fair resolution.

 

[smitty477]

Negligence, if proven is something that I would expect you to carry insurance for. I doubt any contract that absolves for negligence between a captain and the owner would stand up in court. Never having had to consider this I defer to those that are captains for delivery. If you say no liability for delivery captain, then so be it. caveat emptor.

There are companies that provide delivery and repositioning services that also have insurances.
If you hire an independent captain you assign the captain as an 'additional insured' party for the duration of the service with your insurance company.
I do not believe that it is possible for an independent captain to secure insurance on a boat that does not belong to him/her.

 

[SteveK]

There are companies that provide delivery and repositioning services that also have insurances.
If you hire an independent captain you assign the captain as an 'additional insured' party for the duration of the service with your insurance company.
I do not believe that it is possible for an independent captain to secure insurance on a boat that does not belong to him/her.

I get that.
It is the deductible liability that comes into play. If the captain does not cover that then owner has to pay of course.

 

[smitty477]

I get that.
It is the deductible liability that comes into play. If the captain does not cover that then owner has to pay of course.

Fortuneately you as the owner control all of these factors.
- you select your boat insurance and deductible
- you select a delivery company or idependent captain
- you negotiate your needs/requirements
- you complete a delivery contract
- you assign the captain as additionally insured with your insurance company

 

[mvweebles]

I have no idea where to even source the type of insurance being bandied about here. For my management consulting business, I carry General Liability and Errors & Omissions coverage, but that's for professional work only. When I was using Weebles as a training platform, I was able to get a very limited insurance policy that would cover six weekends of training and cost me about $800.00......in 1998 dollars; which was a large reason in why I stopped doing the training. I simply wasn't making much money, but my insurance agent was.

I have to say, if I started to have conversations like these with my then-clients, I would have told them they have the wrong guy. I stayed pretty busy and had the luxury of choosing my clients. Last thing I wanted was a client who was looking to stick someone else with the tab when things didn't go perfectly. I stood on my reputation and my track record. Not everything went perfectly 100% of the time, but the problems were minor.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

https://www.offshorerisk.com/en/charter-delivery-captain-liability-insurance-2/


Charter and Delivery Captain Liability Insurance

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Skippers Choice® Marine Liability can be customized to cover….

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• You, when the owner requires you to have insurance for a passage, a delivery or charter use
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• You, if the owner’s insurance does not cover you are the operator or in command.
• Additional insurance coverage if the boat has low limits of liability insurance coverage or a judgement against you exceeds the owner’s coverage
• Your legal fees related to a Liability claim against you

Some scenarios where Skippers Choice protects you 24/7.

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• A bareboat company needs a captain to drive a rental boat.
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• You do not have the money to pay for a lawyer if you are sued.
• You need coverage for trips outside of the USA.
• You operate a Commercial Passenger boat or a Tourist Submarine. Skippers Choice is designed to cover you if there is an accident or you are dragged into a lawsuit.
• You are retired and want to make some money part-time doing charters or deliveries.

 

[Medic]

Insurance

My insurance allows for the boat being under the command of a professional crew and captain for, I think, 30 days per year. They are automatically covered if they have the captain's license.

You are almost undoubtedly on the hook for the deductible.

I bet the sailboat had more damage than your boat where the damage is pretty much superficial.

Good luck.

 

[Hippocampus]

PSN has it it right in my view. I have had owner operator insurance. This is becoming fairly common. I’m not covered unless I’m physically on the boat. With covid I had need to have someone else move the boat so it could be shipped. I submitted that individual’s credentials and he choose his crew to the insurance company. He had both a Grenadian commercial captains license and yachtmaster-ocean with sail endorsement. Insurance company accepted his credentials. He also carried his own insurance.
It was explained to me in event of a mishap my insurance will then pay. They (not me) reserve the right to decide if they will go after the captain +/or his insurance. They (not me) decide if they will underwrite the trip. Fortunately, they did accept him as a operator and at no extra cost to me. The trip was trivial. One for a short haul from a marina slip to a short haul. The other from that marina to the commercial port on the same island.
My take home is you need to read your policy and make sure it meets your current and future needs. The face page doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[BDofMSP]

Our delivery contract specified that we were responsible for insurance and all costs, period. When the delivery captain grounded us, and we later found damage that resulted in a claim, he offered (but was not required) to pay the deductible. Of course an insurance claim never pays all costs (e.g. depreciation and maintenance items weren't covered, but still needed replacement) so I bore those costs.

All in it cost me about $2k out of pocket, but I got a bunch of new stuff - some of which I was likely to replace in the next year or two anyway (like shaft bearings). I was satisfied with the outcome.

BD

 

[Portage_Bay]

There is no practical way for a delivery captain to carry this type of liability insurance. One day you're delivering a brand new $2m boat, next day you're moving a used 37-foot Taiwan Trawler worth $100k on a good day.

In the end, the customary arrangement is the owner assumes liability. You can go after the captain if there is at least negligence, and certainly if there is gross negligence (though that is a really, really high bar). The deductible on something like this can reach into the several thousands of dollars. If anyone things they can hire someone for $400/day and stick them with liability for a boat, well, that's just not reasonable.

As far as not having all the facts, true. But I have caveated every one of my statements saying that unless the skipper were negligent.....blah/blah.

Peter

And there it is, in a nutshell. If you want the delivery capt to be financially responsible create a contract that covers the level of responsibility and be prepared to pay for it.

 

[markpierce]

My deductible is $5.000. Ouch!

 

[Iggy]

Captain -delivery taking my boat up north. He was in St Augustine dock and the stern thruster failed . He lost control and hit a 66 ' Trinity sailboat. Should he pay something? half? or do i just put through my coverage.

dent on tubing starbd pulpit
starbd 2 scratches above the water line.

I was told the boat will have to come out of water ?

I have not read every single past post, but most and I did not see this point. You said that the "stern thruster failed". Would that be your, the owner's fault? Or was he in charge of maintaining the boat too?

 

[SteveK]

When was the last year that people took responsibility for their actions, anyone remember?

 

[Hippocampus]

A very good point SV